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Old 8th August 2017, 08:23 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why does a gender imbalance caused by something other than discrimination need any correcting at all? I've never even seen an argument for that. But if it needs correcting for STEM, why doesn't it need correcting in fields like elementary school education? That's got a HUGE gender gap, but nobody seems to care. But that actually seems even more consequential to society at large than the STEM imbalance.
Really? You don't get it that elementary school education is seriously underpaid?
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:26 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh Dameon, I had better hopes for you before that post.

No we're not more neurotic.
But that's not what he actually said. Neurotic was johnny's word. What the author said was that women had more neuroticism. There's actually a difference, and the difference matters. Neuroticism is a personality trait, not a personality disorder. And yes, as a matter of fact, women do (on average) score higher on neuroticism than men.

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That's plain ignorance. I know plenty of male drama queens and other odd personalities.
I'm afraid the ignorance is yours, for relying on johnny's words and not the author's, and/or for not knowing the difference between neurosis and neuroticism.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:27 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They are. Conversely, men are more violent than women. That's why there are more men in prison than women. Is that sexist to say?
Nope, I'm all for blaming male genetics and hormones where the evidence supports the conclusion.

Testosterone, it's not my fault you guys have dysfunctional hormones.

Blaming estrogen and progesterone, OTOH, for ******** like women can't handle stress and cry too much, is not an evidence based conclusion.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:28 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is he wrong?...
**** yes he's wrong.

Where's your bloody evidence women are neurotic? Good grief.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:28 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Really? You don't get it that elementary school education is seriously underpaid?
Are you claiming that it's just about the money? Women, in aggregate, need to be paid the same as men, in aggregate?

Because if not, what's money got to do with it?
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:30 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nope, I'm all for blaming male genetics and hormones where the evidence supports the conclusion.

Testosterone, it's not my fault you guys have dysfunctional hormones.

Blaming estrogen and progesterone, OTOH, for ******** like women can't handle stress and cry too much, is not an evidence based conclusion.
Of course. Because it's fine to stereotype negatively about men, but you can't do that about women, because reasons.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:31 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
See this is where I have always found myself diverging in opinions about innateness with the anti-feminist folks. While I am somewhat sympathetic because I see a lot of denial of science among feminists and other social justice types, I don't agree with the conclusions many anti-feminists draw from the science.

Like, say it is true that there is an underlying biological reason that men happen to be drawn more to software development (my field) than women:

First thing is that studies that indicate men might have a greater innate interest in mechanical things vs women having a greater interest in social things doesn't point to the 2-to-1 ratio of men to women in the field as being caused by that. All you could say based on such studies is that we might find some unquantified difference in interest leading to some unquantified imbalance in representation. So saying there is possibly some biological component doesn't in and of itself answer the question of why there are twice as many male software developers as female ones, you still have to determine what component of that difference is and isn't biologically motivated.

Second thing is that, even if the entire difference in representation is because of biologically-based differences in inherent interests, that doesn't mean it is therefore OK. I see many anti-feminists harp on about the naturalistic fallacy, but saying "The difference is due to sexual dimorphism, so it is OK" is also appealing to the naturalistic fallacy. My brain has evolved to absolutely love fat and sugar. Whenever I eat cheesecake my brain says "THIS IS GREAT, EAT MORE!!!!!!!" but I know that overeating is actually bad for me, no matter what my evolved instincts are telling me. Likewise, even if there is an evolved tendency of some sort in women that ultimately causes them to prefer non-technical people-oriented jobs, that doesn't mean such tendencies are optimal for women's long-term happiness in a modern society. If such a tendency does exist, that means perhaps we should work against it, just like we work against over-eating.

Now it could be that none of the above is true, my point is simply that often innateness is used by anti-feminists as a reason that we shouldn't bother trying to fix the representation of different genders in STEM. I think innateness makes it more crucial to do more to correct it, since innate biases like that can be that much harder to correct that simple culturally developed biases.
It could simply be that nature is being conflated with nurture. If one cannot sort those variables out, one is doomed to draw false conclusions.

As for the cheesecake example, don't you think restraint is sometimes part of our nature?
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:32 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
**** yes he's wrong.

Where's your bloody evidence women are neurotic? Good grief.
Why are you responding again to the same post you responded to earlier, and in more detail? And why are you doing it after I already explained why you were wrong?
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:34 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course. Because it's fine to stereotype negatively about men, but you can't do that about women, because reasons.
Reasons in this case = evidence. Feel free to provide your own supporting evidence.

Why are men more violent than women? Sorry but you simply cannot support a nurture argument there.

But women's hormones making them unsuitable for leadership or stressful positions? Come on, that has been disproved a gazillion times.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:52 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Reasons in this case = evidence. Feel free to provide your own supporting evidence.
Why should I? You didn't provide any.

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But women's hormones making them unsuitable for leadership or stressful positions? Come on, that has been disproved a gazillion times.
Has it? Then it should be trivial for you to provide that proof.

And yet....
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:59 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
**** yes he's wrong.



Where's your bloody evidence women are neurotic? Good grief.

No one said all women are neurotic.

On average, though? Somewhat more so.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...24549709595447
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:09 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
No one said all women are neurotic.

On average, though? Somewhat more so.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...24549709595447
You've made the same mistake that SG and johnny made (and I made as well before a closer reading): the author didn't say neurotic, he said neuroticism. There is actually a difference.

Of course, your source also says neuroticism, so the study still backs up what the memo author said. So he's right, and johnny and SG are wrong.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:09 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
...
The second reason is more practical and more specific to innateness. If the differential hiring is due to innate factors, then strategies meant to remove discrimination simply won't work. Just like bandaging someone's arm won't help if they're bleeding from the leg. Furthermore, if it's innate, there is very little you even CAN do, short of quotas (which there's broad consensus are a bad idea, because that's also discrimination on the basis of sex), to "fix" the "problem". Attempts to change human nature generally fail.
We are just going to have to disagree on the first part.

For the second, I also disagree, but here I'll explain why: I am not a bloated 600 lb man. The government hasn't set a quota on my food intake, and I certainly have an innate desire to eat that tasty tasty cheesecake. However I have somehow managed to override that innate behavior pattern (although with all this talk of cheesecake it is getting a bit harder...). Granted America as a whole has an obesity problem, but it is still clearly possible to override these basic psychological biases.

Keep in mind that even if there are innate tendencies, men did not evolve to be computer programmers, and women did not evolve to be social workers. There isn't some sort of hard wiring for this. If there is an innate influence it is an innate psychology for something else that just happens to influence such decisions. Something as simple as encouraging interest in STEM from an early age could be enough to overcome such an indirect bias. Additionally, if women are in fact more interested in inter-personal dynamics, you could basically advertise the social aspects of STEM, seriously a good 3/4 of a work week for me is spent in collaborative design work, not hacking away at program code, and the same is true for the vast majority of software developers. Dispel the stereotype of the lone hacker, the lone engineer, and it might help draw more women in.

Is that enough? I don't know. You certainly don't need to know whether or not the current gap is caused by innate tendencies to bother trying those strategies. It would still be useful to know what degree of the differences are caused by innate differences in male and female psychology, and what those innate differences are that cause it.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:12 PM   #214
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Iím trying to be charitable rather than pedantic. Clearly the scientific claim at hand here isn't about someone being neurotic in a colloquial sense.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:16 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
No one said all women are neurotic.

On average, though? Somewhat more so.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...24549709595447
So your evidence is an assertion in an abstract without the rest of the study to evaluate the evidence? They don't even describe their methodology.

Try again.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:18 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
We are just going to have to disagree on the first part.
Which part of that are you disputing? That the standard argument for diversity initiatives is to fight discrimination?

Quote:
For the second, I also disagree, but here I'll explain why: I am not a bloated 600 lb man. The government hasn't set a quota on my food intake, and I certainly have an innate desire to eat that tasty tasty cheesecake. However I have somehow managed to override that innate behavior pattern (although with all this talk of cheesecake it is getting a bit harder...). Granted America as a whole has an obesity problem, but it is still clearly possible to override these basic psychological biases.
This analogy simply doesn't work.

Overeating is a problem. It's bad to overeat, no matter who you are.

But what's the bad here? Is it bad to be an engineer? Is it bad to not be an engineer? What impulse are we fighting against?

Quote:
Keep in mind that even if there are innate tendencies, men did not evolve to be computer programmers, and women did not evolve to be social workers. There isn't some sort of hard wiring for this. If there is an innate influence it is an innate psychology for something else that just happens to influence such decisions.
I agree with this part.

Quote:
Something as simple as encouraging interest in STEM from an early age could be enough to overcome such an indirect bias.
Perhaps. But what does that have to do with Google? The memo wasn't about encouraging STEM in children. It was about hiring practices at Google.

Quote:
Additionally, if women are in fact more interested in inter-personal dynamics, you could basically advertise the social aspects of STEM, seriously a good 3/4 of a work week for me is spent in collaborative design work, not hacking away at program code, and the same is true for the vast majority of software developers. Dispel the stereotype of the lone hacker, the lone engineer, and it might help draw more women in.
And is this what Google is doing? Or is there program a little... different than that?

Quote:
Is that enough? I don't know. You certainly don't need to know whether or not the current gap is caused by innate tendencies to bother trying those strategies.
Sure, but those strategies aren't what's under debate.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:23 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So your evidence is an assertion in an abstract without the rest of the study to evaluate the evidence? They don't even describe their methodology.

Try again.
Oh, SG, you dear. This article is hardly alone. This is a pretty bog-standard result, there's really no point in trying to deny it. The science is settled. You aren't a science denier, are you?

But since you're so interested, you can find the full text here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._in_37_Nations

Pro tip: if you want to find a full scholarly article, google the title in quotes, followed by "pdf".
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:26 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So your evidence is an assertion in an abstract without the rest of the study to evaluate the evidence? They don't even describe their methodology.

Try again.
I cannot see what you cannot see, from here.

Can you see this one?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031866/
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:26 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Iím trying to be charitable rather than pedantic. Clearly the scientific claim at hand here isn't about someone being neurotic in a colloquial sense.
The difficulty is that neurotic has a technical sense as well, even though the term has fallen out of favor since DSM III. So you kind of have to be pedantic, because SG really doesn't get it.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:42 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It could simply be that nature is being conflated with nurture. If one cannot sort those variables out, one is doomed to draw false conclusions.

As for the cheesecake example, don't you think restraint is sometimes part of our nature?
That is why you do research. There is a lot of evidence for a considerable innateness in human psychology. The tricky thing is figuring out how we should expect those small innate differences to manifest in populations of adults, quantitatively.

For instance, one thing that is often brought up is that newborn boys show more interest in objects, while newborn girls show more interest in dolls (the babies grow bored more slowly looking at different things). Well actually, that isn't what that research showed, it showed at best that boys were simply less interested in dolls, the girls didn't display reduced interest in objects. That could still cause a difference in "object-oriented" fields as men avoid the "people-oriented" ones leaving more room there for women, and less room in the "object -oriented" fields. But if so, that only makes such an innate influence possible, not necessary, and it certainly doesn't tell us how much of a difference we should expect! Thus my initial point in my first post. Even if, like Ziggurat, you didn't think an innate difference was worth correcting, no one has shown that the differences we currently see are mostly caused by innate differences in the first place.

As for your question, yes exercising restraint is certainly part of human psychology (and it probably has an innate component, as impulsivity at least as it's "opposite" is certainly heritable). This is the great thing about having a complex psychology though. Conflicting interests from different psychological drives (such as a drive to look desirable to potential romantic partners) can help suppress desires from other drives (such as my desire to have just 12 more slices of that delicious cheesecake). Or in other words, I exercise restraint because I have reasons to exercise that restraint, not simply for restraints sake. Those reasons are usually also the end result of innate psychological drives.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:47 PM   #221
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Don't use your position at work to publish and disseminate sociopolitical, religious or philosophical texts even more so if they happen to be about a subject that's highly contentious. If you do you're essentially associating your company or business with a certain political viewpoint and when it comes to large international corporations like Google they are more than right to not want to be associated with that.

It doesn't matter if your opinions are perfectly reasonable or completely crazy. Especially don't justify or rationalize the casual sexism in STEM sector that the company you work for has tried to counteract. Seriously.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:54 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Don't use your position at work to publish and disseminate sociopolitical, religious or philosophical texts even more so if they happen to be about a subject that's highly contentious.
The text was about Google policy. Why is that off-limits?

Quote:
Especially don't justify or rationalize the casual sexism in STEM sector that the company you work for has tried to counteract. Seriously.
Do you have any quotes from the original document that demonstrate this? Or is that just the impression you've gotten from secondary sources?
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:16 PM   #223
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:35 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That same argument gets used for religious freedom.

"Why is Hobby Lobby discouraging bad behavior (fornication/murdering babies/gay stuff/ect.) an example of intolerance?"



Writing thoughts down and allowing people to view them and unwanted touching are quite different issues.
Words are just as much an action as touching.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:37 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It is intolerant.

Not equivalent to, no. Is.

Otherwise you're trying to have it both ways.

ETA: I'm about as progressive as it gets, but this "our **** don't stink" attitude lately needs to end.
This has to be answered with a "and?" Or to be further the debate being tolerant does not mean you have to accept all intolerance.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:42 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They are. Conversely, men are more violent than women. That's why there are more men in prison than women. Is that sexist to say?
Your why is not a necessary conclusion from your premise,
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:44 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why does a gender imbalance caused by something other than discrimination need any correcting at all? I've never even seen an argument for that. But if it needs correcting for STEM, why doesn't it need correcting in fields like elementary school education? That's got a HUGE gender gap, but nobody seems to care. But that actually seems even more consequential to society at large than the STEM imbalance.
In the UK teacher organisations, government etc do care.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:46 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
"Fact"? Can you demonstrate this fact? I would submit that the fact that these "diversity initiatives" exist suggest that their hiring process is incapable of identifying candidates who are both female and competent coders.
Or it has been, or it could be or... quite a few other things.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:52 PM   #229
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Has anyone got links to Google's employment contracts, hiring policies, interview guidance etc? I'm asking because there is no way to know if his criticism of Google has any legs without knowing all what Google does in the areas he is criticising.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:54 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Iím trying to be charitable rather than pedantic. Clearly the scientific claim at hand here isn't about someone being neurotic in a colloquial sense.
Or is it that certain traits are described more often as "neurotic" when seen in women but labeled as something else when seen in men? A good example is how men's physical actions are often described in terms of violence yet the same is not the case for female physical actions. This can be seen in studies about domestic violence.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:56 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The text was about Google policy. Why is that off-limits?



Do you have any quotes from the original document that demonstrate this? Or is that just the impression you've gotten from secondary sources?
Is it in his job description or expectations?
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:11 PM   #232
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Can't actually get the links at the mo', but with the men being more violent thing. With domestic abuse as an example

A) While it's true men are more likely to commit physical abuse, women are more likely to commit mental and emotional abuse and believe me, that can be just as nasty.

This if just fact. A difference between sexes.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:16 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The text was about Google policy. Why is that off-limits?
If you have problems with staffing and hiring policies you take that up with HR and if they happen to be unresponsive or if you feel your concerns aren't taken seriously it might be reasonable to escalate things up to the management.

You don't write a 9 page polemic political screed to voice your bigoted white resentment and bitch about how sexist "conservatives" like your self feel oppressed by politically correctness.
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:19 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So your evidence is an assertion in an abstract without the rest of the study to evaluate the evidence? They don't even describe their methodology.

Try again.
That is poor job to deny a study because you have only the abstract available.
What you COULD say is "I cannot judge it because I can't read it".

But dismiss out of hand ? Why not say god created earth 6000 years ago and dismiss any study because you can only read the abstract ? Same thing.
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Old 9th August 2017, 12:18 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Hopefully you don't think that this somehow proves he thinks the opposite. If I thought my words were going to offend the easily offended I'd make sure to pre-empt that.
I call this Virtue Qualifying. It's when someone feels the need to preface their politically incorrect statements with "I'm not misogynist", "I'm not sexist", "I'm not racist" or similar statements.

An easy to identify example as of late is "I don't like Trump, but I think controversy X is overblown".

I think such statements don't indicate one thinks opposite to what they are stating, but that they are aware everyone else's first reaction will be to assume they do. This is the state of political correctness.
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Old 9th August 2017, 12:27 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
See this is where I have always found myself diverging in opinions about innateness with the anti-feminist folks. While I am somewhat sympathetic because I see a lot of denial of science among feminists and other social justice types, I don't agree with the conclusions many anti-feminists draw from the science.

Like, say it is true that there is an underlying biological reason that men happen to be drawn more to software development (my field) than women:

First thing is that studies that indicate men might have a greater innate interest in mechanical things vs women having a greater interest in social things doesn't point to the 2-to-1 ratio of men to women in the field as being caused by that. All you could say based on such studies is that we might find some unquantified difference in interest leading to some unquantified imbalance in representation. So saying there is possibly some biological component doesn't in and of itself answer the question of why there are twice as many male software developers as female ones, you still have to determine what component of that difference is and isn't biologically motivated.

Second thing is that, even if the entire difference in representation is because of biologically-based differences in inherent interests, that doesn't mean it is therefore OK. I see many anti-feminists harp on about the naturalistic fallacy, but saying "The difference is due to sexual dimorphism, so it is OK" is also appealing to the naturalistic fallacy. My brain has evolved to absolutely love fat and sugar. Whenever I eat cheesecake my brain says "THIS IS GREAT, EAT MORE!!!!!!!" but I know that overeating is actually bad for me, no matter what my evolved instincts are telling me. Likewise, even if there is an evolved tendency of some sort in women that ultimately causes them to prefer non-technical people-oriented jobs, that doesn't mean such tendencies are optimal for women's long-term happiness in a modern society. If such a tendency does exist, that means perhaps we should work against it, just like we work against over-eating.

Now it could be that none of the above is true, my point is simply that often innateness is used by anti-feminists as a reason that we shouldn't bother trying to fix the representation of different genders in STEM. I think innateness makes it more crucial to do more to correct it, since innate biases like that can be that much harder to correct that simple culturally developed biases.


You can call me an anti-feminist but ofc I'm just answering for myself:

I see the problem of nature vs nurture nearly impossible to disambiguate for complex things like job choice or work hours as an adult.

That said, I accept that many biological differences between men and women lead to the expectation that men and women will make different choices. Some of which are included in the memo (he mentions men aim for higher status because women are hypergamous, and iirc in-group bias of women towards women, and out-group bias of men towards women (known as gynocentrism among MRA types)).

Now these and the other factors mentioned lead to some predictive power of what we should expect on aggregate. We can't predict an exact percentage, but 50:50 is exactly NOT the ratio I would expect in just about ANY career. I don't claim that whatever percentage is actually prevalent is a result purely of biology (after all, different societies have different gender gaps) but I think it is dishonest for anyone to claim that a non-50:50 ratio is necessarily due to discrimination and/or social upbringing. Further, saying it needs to be "fixed" (closer to 50:50) is just as dishonest as one claiming it ought to be closer to 70:30.

Some raise the point that maybe our "natural" inclinations are a better goal, and although we can't reach it, we can avoid straying further from it by not enacting affirmative action policies. Now, I don't think "natural" is better, necessarily (though if I'm not mistaken the happiest women in the world are stay at home mothers, for one example) BUT I do think the burden of proof is on those who think THEIR percentage is a better goal. You speak over and over about a utilitarian approach to have people happier on average, and we should strive for the ratio that reaches that goal...

Where is the evidence for your proposed 50:50? 60:40? Anything?

edit: I think i'm quoting the right post now

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Old 9th August 2017, 12:31 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So your evidence is an assertion in an abstract without the rest of the study to evaluate the evidence? They don't even describe their methodology.

Try again.
You can start by reading here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fi...er_differences

Quote:
A study of gender differences in 55 nations using the Big Five Inventory found that women tended to be somewhat higher than men in neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, and conscientiousness. The difference in neuroticism was the most prominent and consistent, with significant differences found in 49 of the 55 nations surveyed. Gender differences in personality traits are largest in prosperous, healthy, and more gender-egalitarian cultures. A plausible explanation for this is that acts by women in individualistic, egalitarian countries are more likely to be attributed to their personality, rather than being attributed to ascribed gender roles within collectivist, traditional countries.
(and more, please read the whole paragraph yourself and follow the citations for more reading)
My understanding is that in psychology, behind IQ, the big 5 personality trains are some of the most studied and understood concepts

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Old 9th August 2017, 12:39 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can't actually get the links at the mo', but with the men being more violent thing. With domestic abuse as an example

A) While it's true men are more likely to commit physical abuse, women are more likely to commit mental and emotional abuse and believe me, that can be just as nasty.

This if just fact. A difference between sexes.
Historically this may have been true. I have seen a huge change in my lifetime in regards to female violence. I suspect that we will see this starting to be reflected more and more in statistics at lest in the UK.
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Old 9th August 2017, 12:42 AM   #239
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Here is a less hysterical take on quillette.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170808...tists-respond/

archived because their website appears to be down due to DDoS or something. I've yet to be able to access for over 12 hours, now.

My thoughts:
Frankly, it seems he's mostly accurate on the science.

He's advocating FOR diversity, despite what most articles claim.

His methods may not be better than current practices for the goal of "diversity", but it has some basis in scientific thinking, at least. This was a memo, not a dissertation.

He brings up about 40 different things which can cause a cognitive dissonance bomb, so I'm not surprised at the cognitive dissonance explosion that has resulted (if people even read it... I think 99% took the "anti-diversity" headlines as truth).

This one in particular is well crafted, though I bet many people made it to this section.
Quote:
Discriminating just to increase the representation of women in tech is as
misguided and biased as mandating increases for women’s representation in the
homeless, work-related and violent deaths, prisons, and school dropouts.
Is anyone here still posting who hasn't read the memo? Seriously, it's an easy read and if you're basing your opinion on anything without having read it yourself, you're likely being mislead (even more than usual).

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...ho-Chamber.pdf

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Old 9th August 2017, 01:00 AM   #240
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This is a summary by Steven Pinker of the evidence for innate gender differences which lead to differences in the proportion of men/women in STEM, particularly at a high level (specifically, I think, the discussion has to do with tenured professors at Harvard, though I may be misremembering that):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw

Here is the full debate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hb3oe7-PJ8
I watched this and found Spelke to have failed to even address most of the issues brought up by Pinker, and instead to have simply raised several red herrings, but of course you can make up your own minds.
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