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Old 6th September 2017, 10:39 AM   #241
Thermal
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nothing more diplomatic than accusing people of pervasive racism!
Uhhh...no. The writer said black students testified to this. Little different.

Still standing by your comment that black students testifying to racist behavior on their campus is 'blacks getting riled up about a whole lot of nothing?'
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:40 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Which you trust, when you donít trust what the back students have said and donít trust the motivations of the people that canaled the event. This double standard is exactly what Iím calling you on and which you continue to refuse to present any evidence to justify.




a) Itís already well documented that the event was cancel as a result of the conflict in later discussion of the incident
b) A racist prop displayed prominently where black students are staying most certainly is cause for discussion on race regardless of your assertion to the contrary. (BTW, this description is true regardless of what the students intent was, while yours is only true if they were telling the truth)
(emphasis added)

Where black students were staying? Lots of students, including black students, and including the very student who discarded the banana peel, were staying there.

This wasn't a black student gathering. It wasn't a place where black students met. It was off campus, and included all students, which means that it included black students, but this wasn't some sort of race-oriented event or venue.

At least, not until, The BANANA.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:42 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
My understanding is that it was very close to the quarters the sorority was being housed, is this incorrect?
It was in a different county.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:43 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Which you trust, when you don’t trust what the back students have said
Having nothing to do with their being black. My determination in this matter is in no way predicated upon the racial dynamics of the two subjects.

Is this unclear in any way?

Will you continue trying to slide these insinuations into every reply or can you get this through your *********** skull, now?

Quote:
and don’t trust the motivations of the people that canaled the event.
When was this established as my position?

I would guess an administrator cancelled it once things became hostile and the purposes of the event were beyond repair. I have no reason to believe said administrator would make that decision as a nefarious or devious ploy for other purposes.

So lets dispense with that unsupported assertion, okay?

I know you have an issue with the accused being able to speak for their own perspective, so I just want to be emphatic.

Quote:
This double standard is exactly what I’m calling you on and which you continue to refuse to present any evidence to justify.
I have no interest in justifying a double standard. Nor do I believe I hold one.

If I were to accept a white person's accusation against a black person's clarification (of their own intentions/motivations/secret thoughts), then you'd have a double standard. What I have presented is one standard: the person who's motives are at question probably knows more about them than the outside party.

There's also: the onus is on the one making the claim (of racial intent, in this case)

There's also a inclination towards "innocent until proven guilty" and just repeating the charge over and over is not a solid case.

Quote:
a) It’s already well documented that the event was cancel as a result of the conflict in later discussion of the incident
A discussion that kept on going on about racial tension when the racial tension that had prompted the discussion had already been shown to not be racial tension.

Quote:
b) A racist prop displayed prominently where black students are staying most certainly is cause for discussion on race regardless of your assertion to the contrary. (BTW, this description is true regardless of what the students intent was, while yours is only true if they were telling the truth)
It's a cause for a discussion about a racism right up until it is discovered that there was no racist prop and no racist intent that placed it there.

At that point, the discussion might have concluded with a satisfying resolution. But instead a new source of racial animus ("the racism that's everywhere!") was brought in and thankfully that terrible outcome was avoided...

*rolleyes*
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:45 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Banana peels are not known racists props
I hate to agree with you but damn, why does this need to be said?
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:47 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Uhhh...no. The writer said black students testified to this. Little different.

Still standing by your comment that black students testifying to racist behavior on their campus is 'blacks getting riled up about a whole lot of nothing?'
Ahh, she was just being diplomatic! Which is why she also left out the part about whites getting riled up, which you speculate that they were despite the fact that they were at worst apathetic.

But yep, it is absolutely clear that the blacks at that meeting got riled up not because of anything that happened at the meeting at all. and therefore you claim: "both sides were riled up" is well and truly and again proven:

FALSE
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:49 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The problem is that he was going to deny any racist intent regardless
Gee, that sounds like a good excuse to assume guilt until proven innocent.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:54 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
You are reading in too much. theprestige opined that the lack of reported white backlash overrides the reporting that the black students felt intimidated and unwelcome by...well, I don't know who else.
If there had been actual white backlash contributing to the derailing and cancellation of the conference, I think it would have been reported.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:59 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
The observation that some black students may have felt previously intimidated by southern whites...you construe as racial profiling. Gotcha.
Bringing up behaviors of people who share an immutable quality with the accused as a way to increase the validity of the claim is pretty much textbook racial profiling. It's correlation implies causation (an ethnicity is bound to a behavior).
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:01 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Gee, that sounds like a good excuse to assume guilt until proven innocent.
Of course the witch denies it, satan has bound her tongue to spew only falsehoods.

Cover your ears or you will be cursed, as well!
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:02 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why would it need to be hanging from a nose to be a racist prop?
Do you seriously consider every single banana peel within a certain distance of black people to be a plausible racist prop?

Same question about milk.

Quote:
You asserted that it was a completely innocent misunderstanding but refuse to back that up.
I can't believe that I was right about this: you ARE suggesting that he should be guilty until proven innocent!
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:05 AM   #252
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Life was different BB*


*Before banana
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:06 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Having nothing to do with their being black. My determination in this matter is in no way predicated upon the racial dynamics of the two subjects.
See, it has everything to do with it. The students were black (aside from the white ones, but they don't count), and the one who put the peel there was white. If you don't put their word above his because they're black, then you must by definition put his word above theirs because he's white, because race is the only distinction between them.

Ergo you are a gigantic racist.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:18 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
See, it has everything to do with it. The students were black (aside from the white ones, but they don't count), and the one who put the peel there was white. If you don't put their word above his because they're black, then you must by definition put his word above theirs because he's white, because race is the only distinction between them.

Ergo you are a gigantic racist.
Maybe it just took a while to get to the Midwest from the coasts or something, but this used to be something I though RWNJs were just weaving boogeymen about.

This just goes along with the entire lack of introspection that has been our hallmark for 10 months now. Democrats are so **********...
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:35 AM   #255
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Are there any other instances where a banana PEEL has been used for racial intimidation? It appears that the kid threw it in the tree because, as has been said, he didn't see a garbage can near by. It would have been dangerous to just drop it on the ground as I can personally attest to.

When you can only see racism everywhere you see racism everywhere.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:40 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I hate to agree with you...
If you think that's bad, wait until you realize you're also agreeing with me.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:56 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
If you think that's bad, wait until you realize you're also agreeing with me.
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Old 6th September 2017, 12:17 PM   #258
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I'm hoping nobody finds a tortilla chip floating in the pool.
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Old 6th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #259
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How can you tell the difference between a racist banana peel from a racist banana peel?
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Old 6th September 2017, 01:30 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I see your point, but as noted by others in the thread, the guy's excuse is not known to be true, as it seems highly implausible.
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s only “known” if you trust the white student without question and question the black student’s ability to figure out what’s going on around them without reason.
Nope, the rules of evidence do not work that way

This happened in America, so the "presumption of innocence" is in play. When an accused person makes a statement, they are presumed to be telling the truth. In order to impugn their statement, evidence or proof must be found which shows the statement to be false, and if such evidence or proof cannot be found, the accused's statement MUST be accepted as true. This applies to both sides of the argument; we must accept the complainant's statement that they were upset and intimidated by what they saw, as the truth.

The litterer came forward of his own free will, admitted he put the banana peel in the tree, stated that he merely discarded it carelessly, stated that he had no intent to intimidate, and apoligized for any harm he caused. This is huge piece of evidence in favour of the litterer's statement being true. No-one knew it was him, and there was no way he could ever have been found out. If he was truly a racist, all he needed to do was shut up and enjoy the consequences of his handiwork.

I had never heard of this "banana hanging in a tree" meme before this thread. Its something that simply does not exist in this part of the world. If I was in the litterer's position having done this, I'm not sure I would have had the courage to come forward and admit it was me once I saw the furore it caused.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is silly, there is no dispute that a white student put the banana peel in the tree, admitted it and apologized. There is no white version or black version of this whatsoever.
Despite being asked several times by you and others, lomiller still has not had the courage to admit he/she was wrong and retract his statements about the litterer voluntarily coming forward and admitting what he did.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The dispute, if any, is whether the resulting furor was justified or not (clearly it was not)
I think the initial reaction was justified, but everything that happened after the litterer volunteered culpability and apologized was not at all justified. It was mere grievance nursing, posturing and political points scoring.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We've learned in the last few years that everything has possible racist overtones.
If you want to upset the Italian community, hang a pizza in a tree outside the local RC church.... a taco for Hispanics, a krautwurst for Germans, a cheese wheel for the Dutch and a bread stick for the French
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Old 6th September 2017, 02:30 PM   #261
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I guess we all find this incident amusing, but for quite different reasons. Me? I've been chortling over how a stupid occurrence at a fraternity/sorority conference can so appeal to the political prejudices of so many conservatives as to be taken up and discussed by virtually every right wing blogosphere and news site. It was a gift from heaven for these folks, wasn't it? "Look, I told you those liberals were snowflakes; colleges are many society, left-wing enclaves just teaching people to be offended by anything!" At many of these sites there is also an underlying (or even overt) "See, I told you there is no real racism in the USA- it's just all in the imagination of those minorities!"

I tried to find additional sources to better understand the facts of the incident but 99% of the websites out there only repeat, snort, and gloat, over the original report of the event in a student newspaper. From what I can tell the facts are that a banana peel was found in a tree, that it was viewed as suspicious due to an incident at another college in which bananas were hung from nooses in ways that are more easily interpreted as racially related, a student admitted to having simply intended to dispose of the banana peel, if in this weird way, and that the rest of the "Greek" conference went to hell and was terminated after discussions of this event, of racism in general, and of perceptions of racism flared.

I agree with much of what Meadmaker and some others here have said: given the circumstances, the recent event at another college, and the historic meme of racists depicting blacks as monkeys, an initial suspicious reaction to the banana peel seemed reasonable. However, a racism connection does not appear to be the case here (although more facts would be nice). Instead, the subsequent emotional reactions by some of the students (as have been related to us) do appear to be so enormously out of proportion so as to be just stupid.

But then, it was a "Greek" conference- were we expecting an enormously high level of sophistication and intellectual rigor from a bunch of 19 year olds? And in carefully reading the original article it appears that almost all of the quotes as to the "racism" signified by the banana and its impact on the conference came from a single, apparently overwrought and self-important "student leader." As far as I can tell the student reporter was neither at the conference nor talked to many of the others who were there. Just how stressful was the discovery of the banana to most of the people there? Did the conference break up "in tears" or was that just the perception of the one "student leader" quoted so abundantly in the article? What did other people at the conference do and think? Just how many saw the banana peel as racist? Simply I can't tell for sure. But then, I don't care that much about what an obscure conference of self-selected self-important late teenagers/early twenty-year olds thought and did.

The University administration acted as all do- they say they take the concerns very seriously, they will look into it, and will release a plan. They are not endorsing any position- they are just trying to not get blamed for any thing!

The bottom line as I see it: yes, there are people who are jerks who perceive the world in self-centered weird ways and who say and do stupid things. Frankly I have found a large percentage of jerks among teenagers (and near teens) as a whole and particularly among the "student leaders" found at a wide variety of colleges, fraternities and sororities. One, or perhaps a small group of these immature, self-nominated "student leaders" overreact in a stupid and politically motivated manner to what turns out to be a non-threat. Okay, immature and silly but it is no more stupid, note worthy, or funny than if they had been binge drinking and throwing up on the neighbors' cars.

It was stupid for an immature idiot (or handful of idiots) to inflate a banana peel mole hill into an indictment of racism in American. But it was also ridiculous and equally overwrought for many in the right wing to inflate the stupidity of these one or two students into a broader indictment of students as a whole, of liberal viewpoints, of the reality of racism, or in fact anything of any broader significance.

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Old 6th September 2017, 02:49 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I guess we all find this incident amusing, but for quite different reasons. Me? I've been chortling over how a stupid occurrence at a fraternity/sorority conference can so appeal to the political prejudices of so many conservatives as to be taken up and discussed by virtually every right wing blogosphere and news site.
Isn't that because the left has lost their **** over how racist the banana was? Both sides are talking about this way too much.
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Old 6th September 2017, 03:37 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Isn't that because the left has lost their **** over how racist the banana was? Both sides are talking about this way too much.
Admittedly the repetitive riffing and snorting from rightwing sites, particularly combined with their attempts to use this particular stupidity as a cudgel to broadly attack liberal views, has reduced my own sense of humor about the incident. But I agree with you: it is not worth talking about much. Which is why I only posted once in this thread after so many pages post-oolong thread. I hope to have the self-control to not post again.
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:13 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Admittedly the repetitive riffing and snorting from rightwing sites, particularly combined with their attempts to use this particular stupidity as a cudgel to broadly attack liberal views, has reduced my own sense of humor about the incident. But I agree with you: it is not worth talking about much. Which is why I only posted once in this thread after so many pages post-oolong thread. I hope to have the self-control to not post again.
Come on. Do it again. You know you want to.
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:14 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I guess we all find this incident amusing, but for quite different reasons. Me? I've been chortling over how a stupid occurrence at a fraternity/sorority conference can so appeal to the political prejudices of so many conservatives as to be taken up and discussed by virtually every right wing blogosphere and news site. It was a gift from heaven for these folks, wasn't it? "Look, I told you those liberals were snowflakes; colleges are many society, left-wing enclaves just teaching people to be offended by anything!" At many of these sites there is also an underlying (or even overt) "See, I told you there is no real racism in the USA- it's just all in the imagination of those minorities!"

I tried to find additional sources to better understand the facts of the incident but 99% of the websites out there only repeat, snort, and gloat, over the original report of the event in a student newspaper. From what I can tell the facts are that a banana peel was found in a tree, that it was viewed as suspicious due to an incident at another college in which bananas were hung from nooses in ways that are more easily interpreted as racially related, a student admitted to having simply intended to dispose of the banana peel, if in this weird way, and that the rest of the "Greek" conference went to hell and was terminated after discussions of this event, of racism in general, and of perceptions of racism flared.

I agree with much of what Meadmaker and some others here have said: given the circumstances, the recent event at another college, and the historic meme of racists depicting blacks as monkeys, an initial suspicious reaction to the banana peel seemed reasonable. However, a racism connection does not appear to be the case here (although more facts would be nice). Instead, the subsequent emotional reactions by some of the students (as have been related to us) do appear to be so enormously out of proportion so as to be just stupid.

But then, it was a "Greek" conference- were we expecting an enormously high level of sophistication and intellectual rigor from a bunch of 19 year olds? And in carefully reading the original article it appears that almost all of the quotes as to the "racism" signified by the banana and its impact on the conference came from a single, apparently overwrought and self-important "student leader." As far as I can tell the student reporter was neither at the conference nor talked to many of the others who were there. Just how stressful was the discovery of the banana to most of the people there? Did the conference break up "in tears" or was that just the perception of the one "student leader" quoted so abundantly in the article? What did other people at the conference do and think? Just how many saw the banana peel as racist? Simply I can't tell for sure. But then, I don't care that much about what an obscure conference of self-selected self-important late teenagers/early twenty-year olds thought and did.

The University administration acted as all do- they say they take the concerns very seriously, they will look into it, and will release a plan. They are not endorsing any position- they are just trying to not get blamed for any thing!

The bottom line as I see it: yes, there are people who are jerks who perceive the world in self-centered weird ways and who say and do stupid things. Frankly I have found a large percentage of jerks among teenagers (and near teens) as a whole and particularly among the "student leaders" found at a wide variety of colleges, fraternities and sororities. One, or perhaps a small group of these immature, self-nominated "student leaders" overreact in a stupid and politically motivated manner to what turns out to be a non-threat. Okay, immature and silly but it is no more stupid, note worthy, or funny than if they had been binge drinking and throwing up on the neighbors' cars.

It was stupid for an immature idiot (or handful of idiots) to inflate a banana peel mole hill into an indictment of racism in American. But it was also ridiculous and equally overwrought for many in the right wing to inflate the stupidity of these one or two students into a broader indictment of students as a whole, of liberal viewpoints, of the reality of racism, or in fact anything of any broader significance.
THIS

As usual Giordano, you have pared away all the extraneous BS and cut to the nub of the matter at hand. Well done!

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Old 6th September 2017, 04:32 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If there had been actual white backlash contributing to the derailing and cancellation of the conference, I think it would have been reported.
And that is a fair point. I think it is also fair to think that there may have been no outright 'backlash', but (as reported)a tense and emotional talk that took an 'unhealthy' turn.

What do you think the black student meant by 'unhealthy'?
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:33 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I guess we all find this incident amusing, but for quite different reasons. Me? I've been chortling over how a stupid occurrence at a fraternity/sorority conference can so appeal to the political prejudices of so many conservatives as to be taken up and discussed by virtually every right wing blogosphere and news site.
The only thing I would add, though, is that the remainder of the conference really was cancelled. I'm not sure of the process, but the faculty advisor apparently bought into that decision, so it supports the narrative that a sufficient number of students at the conference made it into such a big deal that the faculty advisor shut down the conference. If we assume that the conference was worthwhile in the first place (not necessarily a great assumption), we can see that this incident had a noticeable effect on that campus.

I think that says something about the people who were at that conference and about the faculty of that school. I suppose it is debatable whether this incident is representative of a larger trend in American society, but I think it seems like a particularly good example of something that we see often enough to consider it significant in our lives.

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Old 6th September 2017, 04:37 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Bringing up behaviors of people who share an immutable quality with the accused as a way to increase the validity of the claim is pretty much textbook racial profiling. It's correlation implies causation (an ethnicity is bound to a behavior).
I think to say that some black students may feel intimidated by southern whites is a fair statement. If I said that some white males may be intimidated by attractive women, is that racial profiling, too? Serious question.
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:47 PM   #269
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I did get a chuckle out of Alpha Kappa Alpha or AKA.
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:56 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
I did get a chuckle out of Alpha Kappa Alpha or AKA.
AKA AKA.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:32 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
THIS

As usual Giordano, you have pared away all the extraneous BS and cut to the nub of the matter at hand. Well done!
and so succinctly too! Many of us struggle to say in 25 words what he says so eloquently in 500 words.

Bit of a shame that his argument went completely off the rails in the last paragraph with the claim that only "one or two students" given the fact that the school administration shut down the conference.

Otherwise, top notch effort.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:09 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think to say that some black students may feel intimidated by southern whites is a fair statement. If I said that some white males may be intimidated by attractive women, is that racial profiling, too? Serious question.
It isn't about some or all.

"Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that."

I cannot see any sensible purpose for the second sentence other than making excuses for the first by laying blame on a demographic group.

Aren't we liberals usually the ones banging the drum of not letting decision-making be dominated by fearful rationalizations?

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Old 6th September 2017, 06:11 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope, the rules of evidence do not work that way

This happened in America, so the "presumption of innocence" is in play. When an accused person makes a statement, they are presumed to be telling the truth. In order to impugn their statement, evidence or proof must be found which shows the statement to be false, and if such evidence or proof cannot be found, the accused's statement MUST be accepted as true. This applies to both sides of the argument; we must accept the complainant's statement that they were upset and intimidated by what they saw, as the truth.
But it did not happen in American courtroom, hence the 'accused', 'rules of evidence', 'presumption of innocence', and that we 'MUST' accept a statement as true...aren't really relevant in a discussion forum about a current event. Nor is his 'testimony', as you would say. Was he sworn in, under penalty of perjury?

Quote:
The litterer came forward of his own free will, admitted he put the banana peel in the tree, stated that he merely discarded it carelessly, stated that he had no intent to intimidate, and apoligized for any harm he caused. This is huge piece of evidence in favour of the litterer's statement being true. No-one knew it was him, and there was no way he could ever have been found out. If he was truly a racist, all he needed to do was shut up and enjoy the consequences of his handiwork.
Some people (myself included) find the Litterbug Defense implausible. Enough so as to cast reasonable doubt on his sworn testimony (hey, this is fun!). I would find it more plausible that he threw it up as a joke in poor taste, and he quickly came clean (with a bad excuse) when he saw that it was not funny. Speculation, of course (Objection! Inadmissible!), but the ol' I-totally-hang-trash-in-trees defense strains credulity. Nor do I think he would have to be 'truly racist', nor do I think anyone is arguing that.

You also claim that "no one knew it was him, and there was no way he could ever have been found out." Are you sure about that? Wait...how do you know he was so sure he wasn't seen? Perhaps that contributed to his hasty confession, that he thought he might have been seen(Speculation, your Honor...Sustained).
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:23 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It isn't about some or all.

"Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that."

I cannot see any sensible purpose for the second sentence other than making excuses for the first by laying blame on a demographic group.

Aren't we liberals usually the ones banging the drum of not letting decision-making be dominated by fearful rationalizations?
I get you now. The Big Dog was making a big deal out of the banana peel being a trigger; I was trying to say that people may likely have brought baggage with them and were on hairtrigger before the Banana Incident. The woman being quoted in the OP had said words to that effect.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:07 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I get you now. The Big Dog was making a big deal out of the banana peel being a trigger; I was trying to say that people may likely have brought baggage with them and were on hairtrigger before the Banana Incident. The woman being quoted in the OP had said words to that effect.
We're both seeing the same kernel of truth, at least, then :9.

Loathe as I am to play along, we are on a hard march towards some weird mutation of empiricism where sensory perceptions and emotions have equal-if-not greater weight than external, objective truth (see: post-factual politics).

I do acknowledge that the emotional consequences of oppression they've faced is real. At the same time, there's a reason we don't let victims preside over the trial or even victims of similar crimes sit on the jury. Too often they want to seek justice for things they've experienced in their own lives by punishing someone who might kinda also be guilty too if you close one eye and squint and tilt your head just so.

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Old 6th September 2017, 07:24 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
We're both seeing the same kernel of truth, at least, then :9.

Loathe as I am to play along, we are on a hard march towards some weird mutation of empiricism where sensory perceptions and emotions have equal-if-not greater weight than external, objective truth (see: post-factual politics).

I do acknowledge that the emotional consequences of oppression they've faced is real. At the same time, there's a reason we don't let victims preside over the trial or even victims of similar crimes sit on the jury. Too often they want to seek justice for things they've experienced in their own lives by punishing someone who might kinda also be guilty too if you close one eye and squint and tilt your head just so.
Truth. But though the victims can't fairly judge, can a juror without healthy emotion or empathy judge fairly either? Actually makes the beginning of a case for professional jurors.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:31 PM   #277
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:50 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
And that is a fair point. I think it is also fair to think that there may have been no outright 'backlash', but (as reported)a tense and emotional talk that took an 'unhealthy' turn.
You're taking a difference in phrasing as a difference in meaning. I'm actually talking about the same thing you are.
Quote:
What do you think the black student meant by 'unhealthy'?
Obviously not white people contributing to a toxic discussion of race. We would have heard about it by now.

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Old 6th September 2017, 08:23 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Truth. But though the victims can't fairly judge, can a juror without healthy emotion or empathy judge fairly either? Actually makes the beginning of a case for professional jurors.
Depends on your definition of healthy.

For the purposes of jury selection, I'd want healthy to include "not prone to override objective reason." Save the emotions and empathy for the sentencing phase. I'm down with that.

But emotionally derived verdicts are dangerous. Going the other way, and decontextualized a bit, it's the same reason so many rapists walk free. Tear into the sordid relationship details of the victim and suddenly there's a juror or two who want to punish that ex-girlfriend from 10 years ago who was "a real ***** that one time..."

But that falls back on the same problem we're having with public policy and politics. Emotions lead reason, narratives override facts, etc.

ETA: I'd also like to say thanks that despite our initial combativeness, we've spiraled into that part of the discussion where we have more we agree on than disagree. Which is what would have been nice to have happen at the retreat these kids went to.

Conflict resolution skills, social trust, the ability to begrudgingly work along people you dislike without blowing up into existential moral crises, all are sorely lacking these days.

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Old 6th September 2017, 08:25 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Some people (myself included) find the Litterbug Defense implausible.
I find it perfectly plausible, in fact even highly likely to be true, because I've been in that place. In my slobbish, uncaring youth, I have disposed of all manner or rubbish carelessly; out the window of a car or a bus, out the second story window of my Uni lodgings, and I'll bet I have even thrown a banana peel into a tree (better than leaving it on the footpath where someone might slip on it.)

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
You also claim that "no one knew it was him, and there was no way he could ever have been found out." Are you sure about that?
Unless, and until someone comes forward and says they saw him do it, I'll stand by what I said.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Wait...how do you know he was so sure he wasn't seen?Perhaps that contributed to his hasty confession, that he thought he might have been seen
Evidence?

If you have evidence he was seen, post it. If not, shut up about it until you do.
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