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Old 31st August 2017, 01:28 PM   #1
The Fallen Serpent
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Gasoline Shortage in Dallas/Fort Worth

I felt this issue deserved a separate thread. Obviously not the most serious issue relating to Hurricane Harvey, so I did not want to distract from there.

From what I understand it is estimated about 20% of the US's refinery capacity is offline from the damage related to Hurricane Harvey. Most of the supply to DFW comes from Oklahoma rather than further south. Prior to the storms hitting gas prices have been hovering around the $2 mark in DFW this summer. IIRC as low as $1.75 and as high as $2.40 depending on the specific store or city in the metroplex. Yesterday the combination of rising prices, worries about a shortage, and tightening supply led to a run on the pumps. I saw prices as high as $2.40. My wife actually had to gas up regardless and we found gas for $2.09. Today I am seeing pictures at $5. There are still many places at about $2.50. I have heard of but not seen photos of $8.

A couple of local news links below. It is unfortunate how the panic cause most of the issue. However, how do we stop a large group from panicking? If you didn't gas up early and try to keep your supply high there is a big chance you'll need to gas up during the price surge. If you gas up early expecting there to be an issue, you contribute to the issue. DFW does have some good public transportation systems, but they are not very expansive. At my previous residence a 25 minute car ride took between 3 and 4 hours by bus and light right and also couldn't get me to work in time to start my shift. While there have been recent improvements, a lot of the area is not bike or pedestrian friendly.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/harv...-gas-shortages

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/s...ortage-9829285

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/08/31/g...hipments-soon/
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File Type: jpg Is this price gouging.jpg (74.1 KB, 1 views)
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:33 PM   #2
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Glad I gassed up yesterday morning - half expected stupidity like this. Textbook example pf a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Oh my God, there never gonna be any more gas ever! Let's all go to the pump and make sure that there really isn't any!"

And now many of these morons who filled up after waiting hours in line are just gonna park their cars over the long weekend.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:42 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Glad I gassed up yesterday morning - half expected stupidity like this. Textbook example pf a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Oh my God, there never gonna be any more gas ever! Let's all go to the pump and make sure that there really isn't any!"

And now many of these morons who filled up after waiting hours in line are just gonna park their cars over the long weekend.
I'm already gassed up as well, and won't need much for the next week, but still hesitate to blame individuals too harshly. It is Labor Day Weekend and there really was a minor shortage in supply. It is self fulfilling, but if you don't prepare against it and needed gasoline for work, emergencies, or leisure this weekend you would get hurt by it.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:48 PM   #4
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There are also no cars to rent in D/FW. My mom wrecked her car and needs a rental, and I've spent all day trying to find her one. Apparently they sent all the rental cars to Houston.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
There are also no cars to rent in D/FW. My mom wrecked her car and needs a rental, and I've spent all day trying to find her one. Apparently they sent all the rental cars to Houston.
My parents are still stuck on a cruise that was supposed to end Saturday. They actually don't know if their car survived or if they will have to rent to get back home once they dock today, supposedly. People always forget that even outside the disaster area there will be a tightening of various supplies. That can cause a cascade and coupling with fears lead to big shortages.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:58 PM   #6
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I also know of events being cancelled in DFW to make room for refugees. A small example being the local knitting group my wife is in. The convention room they normally rent is being converted to a temporary shelter.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:59 PM   #7
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Shortages here in central NC and prices rising.
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Old 31st August 2017, 02:03 PM   #8
The Fallen Serpent
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Shortages here in central NC and prices rising.
http://www.wral.com/harvey-causes-sp...kend/16915783/

We will probably see this in scattered spots through out the country this weekend. Hopefully only scattered, and hopefully no where else turns in to a run on the pumps like happened here.
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Old 1st September 2017, 01:09 PM   #9
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Filled up the night before last, but actually hit traffic trying to meet a client for lunch yesterday. All of the traffic was due to lines of people outside of gas stations.
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Old 1st September 2017, 03:52 PM   #10
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In New York prices have already risen. I go to a station that charges relatively low prices for this area, and Wednesday they raised the prices from $2.439 a gallon of regular unleaded (which it had been for at least a month) to $2.559 a gallon. I was told the sudden increase is because the gasoline wholesale market has become very volatile due to Harvey and the damage to refineries there. No shortages here though, not yet anyway.
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Old 1st September 2017, 06:05 PM   #11
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I paid $2.229 day before yesterday. The $0.60 cent store loyalty discount helped. As did being 1500 miles from Herman, or Harold, or Harvey, or whatever his name was.
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Old 1st September 2017, 07:27 PM   #12
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FW/D gas prices rose 35% in the past 5 days. There is gas available sin ours mostly comes from Oklahoma , but the long weekend and panic depleted on-hand supplies rather quickly, and many of the stations that got reapplied today still sold out quickky.

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Old 1st September 2017, 10:56 PM   #13
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What's the right price? So I know what to pay - and not a penny more!
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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:49 PM   #14
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The gas station I go to in New York raised their price again. For the past month or so the price for a gallon of regular unleaded has been $2.439. Wednesday it was raised to $2.559. Today it's $2.799 a gallon. That's 15% in less than five days. The station owner told me the wholesale market is extremely volatile right now. Prices are rising because the market is nervous over the refineries that were damaged by Harvey in Texas. He told me his volume is about the same, no panic buying .
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:08 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The gas station I go to in New York raised their price again. For the past month or so the price for a gallon of regular unleaded has been $2.439. Wednesday it was raised to $2.559. Today it's $2.799 a gallon. That's 15% in less than five days. The station owner told me the wholesale market is extremely volatile right now. Prices are rising because the market is nervous over the refineries that were damaged by Harvey in Texas. He told me his volume is about the same, no panic buying .
And because they can get away with applying those fluctuations retroactively to gas they've already paid for. Capitalism is so awesome.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And because they can get away with applying those fluctuations retroactively to gas they've already paid for. Capitalism is so awesome.
If you have a better idea, let's hear it.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you have a better idea, let's hear it.
I should have said "unfettered capitalism" and my answer would be more fetters.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 03:25 PM   #18
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Not defending the oil industry, but understanding it, I think it works like this on the retail (gas station) level. The consumer is essentially paying the replacement price.

Hypothetical:

The gas station buys 100 gallons at $1.00 a gallon which they sell for $1.30 a gallon. They made $30.00 but in the meantime the price has gone up to $2.00 a gallon. Now they don't have enough money to buy another 100 gallons. What they do is, as soon as they hear the wholesale price has gone up, they raise the price at the pump accordingly.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 07:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Not defending the oil industry, but understanding it, I think it works like this on the retail (gas station) level. The consumer is essentially paying the replacement price.

Hypothetical:

The gas station buys 100 gallons at $1.00 a gallon which they sell for $1.30 a gallon. They made $30.00 but in the meantime the price has gone up to $2.00 a gallon. Now they don't have enough money to buy another 100 gallons. What they do is, as soon as they hear the wholesale price has gone up, they raise the price at the pump accordingly.
But that seem to be true only when the price goes up, or at least the response is instant when the price goes up but takes days to weeks when the price goes down.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 08:15 PM   #20
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$15 limits imposed here.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 10:51 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And because they can get away with applying those fluctuations retroactively to gas they've already paid for. Capitalism is so awesome.
Yes, nobody should be able to sell anything for more than they paid for it.

Seriously, if the price of gold shoots up overnight, do you think jewelers still charge the old price until they have to buy a load of the more expensive gold? Charging the new price is just sensible. Suppose they run out of gold at the old price (as everybody takes advantage of their cheap prices), so they buy a big load of gold at the new price. And then the bottom drops out of gold and suddenly it's worth the old price again. They make only their normal profit on the rise, and they suffer an extraordinary loss on the dip.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 12:16 PM   #22
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Back in 2012 gas prices began rising at an unprecedented rate. What was giving the wholesale market the jitters back then was Iran and second was the speculative market. This is from a CNN Money report from February 2012:
Quote:
"The primary driver is concern over Iran," said Brian Milne, refined fuels editor at Telvent DTN, an information provider, "and the ramifications if Western countries move more forcefully against it." Iran, which is locked in a bitter dispute with the West over its nuclear program, exports 2.2 million barrels of oil a day, mostly to Asia. More importantly, Iran sits astride the Narrow Strait of Hormuz, through which one fifth of all the world's oil production passes.

Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service...said there is now [Feb. 2012] $12 billion in fund money -- the most ever -- betting on a higher price for the benchmark U.S. gasoline contract. "I think the biggest driver is the money," he said. "There is so much speculative money based on a high-price scenario." News link
I can recall paying up to $3.90 a gallon, I live in the northern part of the city, while stations in Manhattan and parts of the Bronx were charging over $4.00 a gallon. When a fillup cost $65 that hurt! I can remember being quite pessimistic prices would ever come down. I used to say, "Once they have us resigned to paying over $3.50 a gallon, they're never going to lower prices. We may not see any increases for a while, but lower prices? Dream on!"

Happily I was completely wrong.

In the summer of 2014 prices began falling. By early 2015 I was paying about $2.10 a gallon. I was delirious with joy. In early 2016 prices even dipped below $2.00 a gallon for a while and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. As you can see in the chart below -- click to enlarge -- in the summer of 2016 prices started climbing once again. I said, "I knew it! It's summer drive time and here we go again." But once prices at the station I use reached about $2.30 a gallon they leveled off. It was the new normal and I was loving it. They have stayed that way, too, until last week's Harvey-related price rises.

Btw, adjusted for inflation gasoline was more expensive in 1920 than it is right now.

.
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File Type: jpg Gas Prices NY City 0912 to 0917.jpg (29.4 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by newyorkguy; 3rd September 2017 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 9th September 2017, 06:08 PM   #23
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Yet another reason I don't live in Dallas. Too many morons. This panic was begun by morons. See also runs on banks.

Being a life long Dallas Cowboys fan, this is one of those things I wrestle with: my favorite team is located in a city with an unfortunately large dose of stupid. (And now my daughter lives there too, so I can't just write Dallas off. )
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:54 AM   #24
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It's always funny seeing yanks moan about "gas" prices. You pay for a whole gallon what we have to pay for a measly couple of pints here.
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Old 12th September 2017, 05:25 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
It's always funny seeing yanks moan about "gas" prices. You pay for a whole gallon what we have to pay for a measly couple of pints here.
Thing is that our cars go as far on those couple of pints as some of those huge SUVs manage on a (U.S. 3.8 litre) gallon.
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Old 12th September 2017, 06:11 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Quote:
Not defending the oil industry, but understanding it, I think it works like this on the retail (gas station) level. The consumer is essentially paying the replacement price.
But that seem to be true only when the price goes up, or at least the response is instant when the price goes up but takes days to weeks when the price goes down.
Its possible that the gas stations are still responding to the replacement costs (which might be coming down slower than they went up.)

Or its possible that its caution on their part... If your profit margins are small, you're better to keep prices a little higher than they need to rather than drastically cut prices and find you have to raise them again almost immediately.
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:08 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Yet another reason I don't live in Dallas. Too many morons. This panic was begun by morons. See also runs on banks.

Being a life long Dallas Cowboys fan, this is one of those things I wrestle with: my favorite team is located in a city with an unfortunately large dose of stupid. (And now my daughter lives there too, so I can't just write Dallas off. )
As someone who currently lives in the DFW area, I agree.

I'm trying very hard to encourage my kids to look for gainful employment elsewhere. I really don't want to come back here in retirement.
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:37 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Thing is that our cars go as far on those couple of pints as some of those huge SUVs manage on a (U.S. 3.8 litre) gallon.
My mid-size SUV gets about the same mileage as my 1976 Honda Accord. Which, incidentally, was significantly smaller than today's Civic.
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
My mid-size SUV gets about the same mileage as my 1976 Honda Accord. Which, incidentally, was significantly smaller than today's Civic.
....which is why I specifically referred to the huge SUVs

Last time I was in the US I drive my brother-in-law's Chevy Suburban and was getting less than 10 mpg on average.

Then again, as you say fuel efficiency has increased significantly over the years. In 1985 I was driving a 1981 Austin Allegro with 1.3 litres of throbbing A-series power generating nearly 60 hp and if I nursed it, I could get around 35 mpg. My current Skoda Oktavia has a marginally larger engine, produces 2.5 times the power and uses less than 2/3 of the fuel (it's currently averaging well over 55 mpg in mixed motoring, and I've averaged over 70mpg when driving fuel efficiently - quite remarkable for a smallish petrol engine in a pretty big car).
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The gas station I go to in New York raised their price again. For the past month or so the price for a gallon of regular unleaded has been $2.439. [Right after Harvey] it was raised to $2.559. Today [Sept. 2nd] it's $2.799 a gallon.
The end of last week it went up to $2.869 a gallon for regular unleaded and that's where it was as of yesterday. I'm sure it's driven by pressure from the wholesale market, suppliers trying to 'lock in' supplies just in case.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Yet another reason I don't live in Dallas. Too many morons. This panic was begun by morons. See also runs on banks.

Being a life long Dallas Cowboys fan, this is one of those things I wrestle with: my favorite team is located in a city with an unfortunately large dose of stupid. (And now my daughter lives there too, so I can't just write Dallas off. )
Hey, now! The Cowboys are in Arlington. We mid-cities folks are the idiots.
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Old 24th September 2017, 02:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The end of last week it went up to $2.869 $2.839 a gallon for regular unleaded [edited, got price wrong] and that's where it was as of yesterday. I'm sure it's driven by pressure from the wholesale market, suppliers trying to 'lock in' supplies just in case.
This week the price at the gas station I use dropped to $2.739.
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Old 24th September 2017, 06:20 PM   #33
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Wasn't it supposed to be over $10/gal nationwide by 2014 if Obama was reelected in 2012?
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Old 25th September 2017, 05:16 AM   #34
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Gas for $10.00 a gallon (or $9.999, I guess) if Obama was reelected? That's what Newt Gingrich predicted.
Quote:
Newt Gingrich, running for the GOP nomination, predicted that if Obama was reelected he would push gas to “$10 a gallon.” Gingrich said he would reduce gas prices dramatically by reversing Obama’s energy policies. Gingrich flanked himself with campaign signs promising $2.50 gas if he was elected. Link

Anyway, we can expect further relief. This is from an Associated Press story of a day ago:
Quote:
The average price of a gallon of regular-grade gasoline fell 7 cents nationally over the past two weeks, to $2.62. Industry analyst Trilby Lundberg of the Lundberg Survey said Sunday that the drop comes as flooded refineries continue to come back online after devastation caused by Hurricane Harvey. Link
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:28 PM   #35
Darth Rotor
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Our local gas station dropped from 2.39 to 2.33.
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Old 27th September 2017, 10:31 AM   #36
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Our local gas station dropped from 2.39 to 2.33.
****. I just paid 2.36
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