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Tags Cuba conspiracies , Cuba incidents , mass hysteria , sonic weapons , US-Cuba relations

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Old 18th September 2017, 08:34 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's a more elaborate conspiracy theory than we would expect even from the White House. But here's the question: Why would FSOs who support the Cuba thaw give the incoming administration a reason to shut down the embassy by blaming the Cuban government for something it didn't do? How does that advance their goals?
It's not a CT that discord at work increases reported injuries and worker's comp claims. It is a very common pattern.

Four reasons for spikes in WC claims

It's copy protected so you'll have to give it a glance but essentially the 3 of the 4 reasons have to do with things that make people unhappy workers. The fourth is new equipment which can increase injuries as people need to learn new things, but it also represents the stress of change.

Versions of the 3 of 4 reasons are all present in the current State Department. Add in change and you have all 4.

More of the same:
Quote:
“Develop a fair, honest workplace culture,” Adelson says. “Unhappy and bitter people who don’t value their jobs are going to file claims and take them all the way. People who respect their employers and workplaces will want to get back to work quickly.”
It's a well known occupational medicine fact.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's a more elaborate conspiracy theory than we would expect even from the White House. But here's the question: Why would FSOs who support the Cuba thaw give the incoming administration a reason to shut down the embassy by blaming the Cuban government for something it didn't do? How does that advance their goals?
I do not believe this is some intentional plan. No conspiracy needed. I'm simply laying out the psychological stressors surrounding Embassy staff that could lead to this series of events.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:58 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Governments do have sonic weapons. But they're not secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_R...coustic_Device
That's not a weapon intended to injure, it's not secret and it's a red herring in this discussion. It's a fancy loudspeaker to drive crowds to disperse.
Actually, it seems to be a long-distance communication device: Telling people to disperse, rather than driving them to do so:
Quote:
The Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) is an acoustic hailing (!) device developed by LRAD Corporation to send messages and warning tones over longer distances or at higher volume than normal loudspeakers. LRAD systems are used for long range communications (!) in a variety of applications including as a means of non-lethal, non-kinetic crowd control. They have been called (!) "sonic weapons."
(from the Wikipedia article, the (!) are mine, dann)
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:23 PM   #84
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Just how many Americans (US citizens for you pedants) are on staff at a small embassy? I was under the impression that we might have about forty or fifty of them here (in the main Embassy in Bangkok) and the rest are local staff. In a country such as Cuba, which is considered somewhat hostile, wouldn't there be even a smaller number? The figure I heard was 85 people effected. Are these all supposed to be US Citizen Consulate Staff?
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:43 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Just how many Americans (US citizens for you pedants) are on staff at a small embassy? I was under the impression that we might have about forty or fifty of them here (in the main Embassy in Bangkok) and the rest are local staff. In a country such as Cuba, which is considered somewhat hostile, wouldn't there be even a smaller number? The figure I heard was 85 people effected. Are these all supposed to be US Citizen Consulate Staff?
Look at the number of 'diplomats' the US has in Russia, and vice versa. You need to keep an eye on your enemies not your friends.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:47 PM   #86
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It is likely that there is more than one explanation for the symptoms. Many of the symptoms would fit with someone buying cheap (illegal) rum and having a party. Toxic alcohols e.g. methanol would cause many of the symptoms. An unknown toxin might even be involved as seen in the toxic oil outbreak in Spain.

An interesting question might be how many cubans have similar symptoms.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:50 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
It is likely that there is more than one explanation for the symptoms. Many of the symptoms would fit with someone buying cheap (illegal) rum and having a party. Toxic alcohols e.g. methanol would cause many of the symptoms. An unknown toxin might even be involved as seen in the toxic oil outbreak in Spain.

An interesting question might be how many cubans have similar symptoms.
I can't imagine US diplomats having to resort to drinking cheap, illegal rum. Rum in Cuba is cheap and excellent - and in Havana usually Havana Club 3 Años (for mixing, for instance when making mojitos or Cuba libres (some Cuban waiters get offended if you call it rum & coke)) or 7 Años, but top diplomats might prefer Selección De Maestro.
I've never encountered cheap, illegal rum in Cuba, but legal rum may give you a headache if you drink enough of it. And, of course, it might be the reason why you forgot what hit you when you got that mild concussion.
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:09 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Just how many Americans (US citizens for you pedants) are on staff at a small embassy?
It's hard to tell. It's a pretty big building, not a small embassy. And the number of diplomats appear to be unlimited! :-)
Quote:
And she will insist that there must be no limitation on the number of U. S. diplomats in Cuba. Also, Ms. Jacobson will demand that Cubans have ...
http://cubaninsider.blogspot.dk/2015/01/
Roberta S. Jacobson
Still, I don't think that the Cubans found an alternative way of limiting their number ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th September 2017, 06:11 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's hard to tell. It's a pretty big building, not a small embassy. And the number of diplomats appear to be unlimited! :-)

Roberta S. Jacobson
Still, I don't think that the Cubans found an alternative way of limiting their number ...
I have also tried to find this without success!

At the opening in 2015 the staff numbers given were the diplomats already there under the "US Interests" section that was technically with the Swiss Embassy.

51 Americans and 300 Cubans worked there at the time. I cannot find out how many were added after that. Their workload surely increased significantly with the new influx Americans able to travel and do business there.

Reports also do not say how many of the 'affected' were actual staff and how many were family members in the same home.

There are quite a few facts missing.
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Old 19th September 2017, 07:59 AM   #90
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The few US Americans I met in Cuba prior to 2015 were usually doing what they could to avoid detection by US authorities, so I think that the major part of the 51 Americans working for the US Interest Section were probably involved with the USAID’s pyramideo scheme or similar attempts at subversion.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th September 2017, 08:38 AM   #91
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Can anybody explain how a listening device could have these side effects?
Quote:
There are many theories about what actually happened — and why.
One of them is that Cuban intelligence officials wanted to listen in on President Donald Trump’s transition plans for Cuba and learn what they could about the new White House.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/18/...s-sonic-weapon
And why would they expect "Trump's transition plans for Cuba" to be revealed by listening in on the beds rather than the offices of US diplomats?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:02 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
It is likely that there is more than one explanation for the symptoms. Many of the symptoms would fit with someone buying cheap (illegal) rum and having a party. Toxic alcohols e.g. methanol would cause many of the symptoms. An unknown toxin might even be involved as seen in the toxic oil outbreak in Spain.

An interesting question might be how many cubans have similar symptoms.
One way to look at this is to consider how many symptoms one has every day: short dizzy spell, headache, itchy skin, scratchy throat, gas pain, joint pain, etc. This is normal and most of the time people pay no attention to these things. (There are actually a few studies on what, given all these common symptoms, triggers people to seek medical attention. But I digress.)

Now say that person hears about a secret sonic attack. Suddenly those everyday symptoms come to that person's attention. "OMG, I do have a headache and scratchy throat! Look at my skin, does that look normal?"

This is a common sequence of events for this kind of hysteria.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:45 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
(There are actually a few studies on what, given all these common symptoms, triggers people to seek medical attention. But I digress.)
So do I then, but I was wondering: Women appear to seek professional medical attention for their ailments much more frequently than men, at least in my country, so could that be the reason why women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria (I don't know about mass psychogenic illness) than men? - with shrinking penis syndrome being one of the exceptions!

It also occurs to me that the way the case of the alleged sonic attack victims is handled right now will only serve to prolong the outbreak:
Quote:
Some responses by authorities to MPI are not appropriate. Intense media coverage seems to exacerbate outbreaks. Once it is determined that the illness is psychogenic, it should not be given credence by authorities. For example, in the Singapore factory case study, calling in a medicine man to perform an exorcism seemed to perpetuate the outbreak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_p...e_to_outbreaks
which is also what happened in Denmark with the HPV vaccine scare mentioned above.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 20th September 2017 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:55 AM   #94
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PS I just love the way that Wikipedia has made an article about shrinking penis syndrome gender neutral:
Quote:
Koro is a culture-specific syndrome delusional disorder in which an individual (!) has an overpowering belief that one's (!) genitalia are retracting and will disappear, despite the lack of any true longstanding changes to the genitals.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:22 AM   #95
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Meh. Not enough solid info. I'm inclined to believe that bugging devices might be installed in the embassy like they were in the U.S. embassy in Moscow. But there's no reason a bugging device should cause any kind of injury.

There was a quote about reports of "grinding noises" at night on NPR this morning, but that's something different.

Alarm systems sometimes emit high frequency sounds (just north of 20k) that can be heard by some people -- they feel like an uncomfortable nearly inaudible pressure. I used to be one of them, in my 20's and 30's, but no longer. My hearing tops out at 12k. But that could easily be detected and recorded and fixed.

The U.S. used noise as a harassment technique -- both in interrogations and when they went after Noriega in Panama. But again, a red herring, unless the fiendish Cubans are trying to keep our diplomats up with the sound of garbage disposals, or something. Makes no sense.

If the U.S. people were seriously concerned, it seems trivial for them to call in a technology expert with some recording devices to witness the "attacks". But that didn't happen, or we'd have solid explanations.

It's bizarre that we have senior officials commenting about this without anyone knowing what they're talking about, apparently. eta: Ok, maybe not so bizarre any more. Par.

As someone who experiences sound very vividly -- as something very solid and real and understandable -- this case intrigues and frustrates me. I'm pretty curious how it will all turn out: Probably it will just fade away without us finding out what really happened.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Alarm systems sometimes emit high frequency sounds (just north of 20k) that can be heard by some people -- they feel like an uncomfortable nearly inaudible pressure. I used to be one of them, in my 20's and 30's, but no longer. My hearing tops out at 12k. But that could easily be detected and recorded and fixed.
I think that there was a case in Denmark a couple of years ago when the owner of a grocery store got fed up with teenagers hanging out outside. He allegedly used high-frequency sounds to disperse them, sounds that wouldn't bother his older customers because they couldn't hear them. This appears to be something similar: "to drive away loiterers." Or rather: to drive away young loiterers!


Quote:
If the U.S. people were seriously concerned, it seems trivial for them to call in a technology expert with some recording devices to witness the "attacks". But that didn't happen, or we'd have solid explanations.

It's bizarre that we have senior officials commenting about this without anyone knowing what they're talking about, apparently. eta: Ok, maybe not so bizarre any more. Par.
My point exactly!

Quote:
As someone who experiences sound very vividly -- as something very solid and real and understandable -- this case intrigues and frustrates me. I'm pretty curious how it will all turn out: Probably it will just fade away without us finding out what really happened.
By now, I think that the people afflicted by this are a very mixed group: Some of them have actual physical symptoms (loss of hearing), which they (falsely) attribute to these X sounds, others have heard about the symptoms and have become convinced that they have them too. Unlike theprestige, I think that people in the spying business (and, yes, I do know that some diplomats are simply diplomats!) are probably more prone to paranoia and to believing that "the enemy" is out to get them, which might make them interpret any bodily symptoms accordingly. (This could be turned into a good episode of The Americans.)
And for Marco Rubio and his ilk, it's a welcome excuse for closing down the US embassy in Havana.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 20th September 2017, 09:30 AM   #97
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PS Try listening to the Mosquito Audio Demo. Even without my hearing aid, I can still hear not only what "Everyone Can Hear", but to my amazement also "60 Younger Can Hear", but with the others, I hear absolutely nothing!
I'm gonna get me one of those! But who cares about teenagers and millenials? As a high-school teacher I'm pretty tolerant as far as young people are concerned, so I guess I'm gonna get me one of those targeted against people in their forties! Those bloody Gen X'ers! Can't stand 'em!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 20th September 2017, 09:43 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So do I then, but I was wondering: Women appear to seek professional medical attention for their ailments much more frequently than men, at least in my country, so could that be the reason why women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria (I don't know about mass psychogenic illness) than men? - with shrinking penis syndrome being one of the exceptions!
Off topic or we could discuss your assumptions this affects more women than men while you cite a case that affects men. Also, when one seeks medical care has a significant cultural aspect to it.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
It also occurs to me that the way the case of the alleged sonic attack victims is handled right now will only serve to prolong the outbreak:

which is also what happened in Denmark with the HPV vaccine scare mentioned above.
Most definitely but then it's what would one expect with this ignorant administration.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:18 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Off topic or we could discuss your assumptions this affects more women than men …
When I write that "women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria", my impression is based on Wikipedia's list of Notable cases.
Quote:
… while you cite a case that affects men.
Yes, why shouldn't I?! In an earlier post I referred to another exception, one from the list, the San Diego (1988) case where the "US Navy evacuated 600 men (!) from barracks."
Quote:
Also, when one seeks medical care has a significant cultural aspect to it.
Yes, probably. I never said or implied that it doesn't.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th September 2017, 02:48 PM   #100
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We really do not have enough information to know how this could play out between genders. We don't know how the first case was presented, how the suggestion of an'external' attack came about, how seriously staff perceived it was being handled by 'authorities', or how the information(rumor?) was spread between ranks and social circles.

Of the hundreds of people who work at the Embassy, there have been no personal interviews that might tell us how it played out at the 'watercooler' since late last year.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:17 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
When I write that "women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria", my impression is based on Wikipedia's list of Notable cases.

Yes, why shouldn't I?! In an earlier post I referred to another exception, one from the list, the San Diego (1988) case where the "US Navy evacuated 600 men (!) from barracks."

Yes, probably. I never said or implied that it doesn't.
I assure you Wiki's sample is not representative of anything more than cases which made the news or history books.

It's off topic and complicated. Start a new thread if you want to discuss your gender assumptions.

I can't easily find out the gender of the diplomats affected, only that at least one of them was referred to as 'he'.

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Old 20th September 2017, 09:22 PM   #102
dann
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
We really do not have enough information to know how this could play out between genders. We don't know how the first case was presented, how the suggestion of an'external' attack came about, how seriously staff perceived it was being handled by 'authorities', or how the information(rumor?) was spread between ranks and social circles.

Of the hundreds of people who work at the Embassy, there have been no personal interviews that might tell us how it played out at the 'watercooler' since late last year.
But we do know how it’s being handled now. The alleged ”attacks” are being treated as facts:
Quote:
The United States is considering closing its embassy in Cuba for a strange and scary reason: the unexplained injuries that dozens of American diplomats suffered after potentially being hit by some sort of secret sonic weapon.
(…)
Tom Cotton (R-AR) and Marco Rubio (R-FL), wrote a letter to the secretary imploring him to expel Cuban diplomats from the US. If Cuba doesn’t figure out who or what was behind the attacks, the legislators said that America should close the Havana embassy.
… and as such already had diplomatic repercussions:
Quote:
The US already expelled two Cuban diplomats in May because of the incidents.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/18/...s-sonic-weapon
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 20th September 2017, 09:34 PM   #103
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Sorry, but Trump is a well known CTer. That his admin is sadly using this incident for political gain is not evidence the weapon and injuries are real.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:44 PM   #104
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No, of course not. My point here is that to the people afflicted by the alleged attacks, it will seem to confirm their delusions.
Quote:
Some responses by authorities to MPI are not appropriate. Intense media coverage seems to exacerbate outbreaks. Once it is determined that the illness is psychogenic, it should not be given credence by authorities. For example, in the Singapore factory case study, calling in a medicine man to perform an exorcism seemed to perpetuate the outbreak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_p...e_to_outbreaks
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:08 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, of course not. My point here is that to the people afflicted by the alleged attacks, it will seem to confirm their delusions.
Yes, we are in agreement then. Between the news media and our CT believing POTUS you can safely add this one to the never ending CTs that will live on forever.
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Old 21st September 2017, 06:45 AM   #106
dann
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The figure I heard was 85 people effected.
Probably not that many:
Quote:
The US State Department claims that the “attacks” started in autumn 2016 and ended in April this year and had affected at least 16 individuals.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...en-carried-out
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:01 AM   #107
dann
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Some years ago I read about the East German "Stasi" using low frequency "infrasonic" sound waves to disturb foreign diplomats and people they suspected of being spies. (I don't have a reference, sorry)
Some of those stories are probably very alternative 'facts':
Quote:
In the 1960s, the Soviet Union microwaved US diplomats in Moscow at low levels, triggering an episode of Cold War buffoonery in the form of a secret health study to see if “microwave mind control weapons” were at work on the unknowing US diplomats.

The study was headed by a scientist fired years later for “general dishonesty,” according to Weinberger’s book. And it was reliant on blood samples taken by a State Department doctor later convicted of impregnating dozens of his patients without their knowledge of him being their sperm donor at a Virginia fertility clinic.

The secrecy that accompanied the Moscow microwave investigation then mirrors the lack of information about the Cuban embassy outbreak now, she added, making the situation needlessly murky.

“It turns out the Russians were just using the microwaves to turn bugging devices on and off,” Weinberger said. The mysterious microwaves, finals records showed, were too low-intensity to hurt anyone.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/danvergano/...Jl7#.llEy4ZpYN
By the way, the same article also considers that the explanation in the case of the US diplomats in Cuba may be mass hysteria or psychogenic illness:
Quote:
“Until we know more, the possibility of mass hysteria is certainly in play,” New Zealand sociologist Robert Bartholomew, author of Outbreak! The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary Social Behavior, told BuzzFeed News. Many documented mass hysteria cases involve so-called sick buildings that turn out to be psychological outbreaks, he noted.
“Based on the scant information that has been disclosed, it is very possible that this cluster is psychogenic in nature, as most of the symptoms are headaches and dizziness, while the most serious case is described as ‘mild traumatic brain injury’, whatever the hell that means, and could be entirely unrelated.”
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:41 AM   #108
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My thoughts:

The US no doubt has intelligence experts who could investigate this.
Why wasn't it brought to their attention to investigate before going public and letting the perpetrators know that they were on to it? If the method was unknown the investigation could have provided useful info to US intelligence.

It was stated above that the problem was worse when people were in bed and eased when they got up. If it was that directional why didn't they just move their beds to a different part of the room. Fascinating that the perpetrators seemed to know exactly where the beds were located.

I understood that the Cuban government welcomed the re-establishment of connections with the US. Why would they want to cause this disruption?
[conspiracy theory] The US is doing this to their own embassy to give Trump a reason to close the embassy. He hates commies! [/conspiracy theory].
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:39 PM   #109
dann
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
My thoughts:

The US no doubt has intelligence experts who could investigate this.
They most certainly do, and they most certainly did!
Quote:
Why wasn't it brought to their attention to investigate before going public and letting the perpetrators know that they were on to it?
I bet that it was and that they did, but apparently they found nothing at all.
Quote:
If the method was unknown the investigation could have provided useful info to US intelligence.
Unless the Cubans, who are famous for their cutting edge inventions in the field of super sonic surveillance technology, have come up with something utterly untraceable, the super stealth listening concussioner of the new millennium, which … I'm obviously kidding!
Quote:
It was stated above that the problem was worse when people were in bed and eased when they got up. If it was that directional why didn't they just move their beds to a different part of the room.
They tried to do so, but couldn't get hold of a couple of super professional European dowsers specializing in detecting co-called Earth Rays, which are known to cause symptoms similar to the ones exhibited by the US diplomats.
Quote:
Fascinating that the perpetrators seemed to know exactly where the beds were located.
No, not really. That would have been the easiest part of the whole clandestine operation.
Quote:
I understood that the Cuban government welcomed the re-establishment of connections with the US. Why would they want to cause this disruption?
We commies are devious creatures! We work in mysterious ways!
Quote:
[conspiracy theory] The US is doing this to their own embassy to give Trump a reason to close the embassy. He hates commies! [/conspiracy theory].
Don't all Americans hate commies?! But in this case: The conspiracy would require too many conspirators to work: all the people who had to come down with these weird afflictions! Also, if somebody had actually planned the whole thing, with a minimum of effort they would have been able to come up with much more consistent symptoms than the ones mentioned in this case, which are all over the place (=psychogenic).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:58 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They most certainly do, and they most certainly did!

I bet that it was and that they did, but apparently they found nothing at all.

Unless the Cubans, who are famous for their cutting edge inventions in the field of super sonic surveillance technology, have come up with something utterly untraceable, the super stealth listening concussioner of the new millennium, which … I'm obviously kidding!

They tried to do so, but couldn't get hold of a couple of super professional European dowsers specializing in detecting co-called Earth Rays, which are known to cause symptoms similar to the ones exhibited by the US diplomats.

No, not really. That would have been the easiest part of the whole clandestine operation.

We commies are devious creatures! We work in mysterious ways!

Don't all Americans hate commies?! But in this case: The conspiracy would require too many conspirators to work: all the people who had to come down with these weird afflictions! Also, if somebody had actually planned the whole thing, with a minimum of effort they would have been able to come up with much more consistent symptoms than the ones mentioned in this case, which are all over the place (=psychogenic).
Wow!!!!!! It's like you are reading my mind!!!!!! Do you have some sort of super secret mind-reading technology?? I bet the Cubans would pay a fortune for it!!!!!!!

(credit where it is due - exclamation marks!!!!! graciously provided by Fuelair. Thank you.)
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:31 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Exactly. How does a doctor verify 'hearing loss' independent of the patients reporting?

Normal hearing tests use tones where the patient raises their hand when they can hear it. To really determine it, they'd have to look at how the brain itself responds to sound, independent of what the person says they can/cannot hear.
It just occurred to me why it would be difficult to fake a test:

I already mentioned my experience when I was being drafted for the Danish army and examined by the medical board, and they seemed to be convinced of my deficient hearing. You are right about the hearing tests requiring the cooperation of the test subject. They play sounds at different frequencies, and they can also turn the volume up and down. At one point the doctor who was testing me looked suspicious, and I could see that at some of the frequencies he was obviously turning the volume up to the maximum level of the apparatus, and I still couldn't hear a damn thing.
I think that faking deafness at certain frequencies would require perfect pitch as well as memory: You would have to be able to recognize and remember the exact frequencies where you pretend to be deaf, and you would also have to be a very good actor when the volume is turned up above the pain threshold and you pretend that it doesn't bother you!
At the time, I was annoyed that I wasn't deemed unfit as cannon fodder, and I think that I considered if I ought to have faked being deafer than I actually was in order to be rejected by the medical board, but I don't think that I would have been able to pull it off.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd September 2017 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 29th September 2017, 02:12 AM   #112
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When I started this thread, I used the headline: "Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?", which some people objected to:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Your headline belongs in the bin.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You offer three choices:

Alien attack is absurd. Mass hysteria among trained diplomats is unlikely. So it's probably conspiracy rather than either of the other two.
However, in spite of the fact that 1) medical doctors can't reach a conclusion about what caused the alleged health damages, 2) technical experts are also baffled, US officials are still convinced (!) that someone (!) targeted (!) the US diplomats in Cuba!
So this means that the 1) an outbreak of mass hysteria among American (and a couple of Canadian) diplomats stationed in Havana is now being used by conspiracy freaks working for the US government to come up with outlandish ideas, including that an alien attack!
Quote:
Investigators haven't determined the cause of the incidents, but US officials told CNN they are convinced someone has targeted American diplomats in Havana with a sophisticated device never deployed before, at least not against US personnel.
(…)
But the physical symptoms that people exhibited varied greatly, preventing doctors consulted in the United States from reaching a conclusion about what caused the trauma, two US officials said.
US government technical experts were also baffled. Some affected diplomats had lines of sight to the street in their homes, while others had shrubbery and walls that blocked views of their homes. Some heard loud sounds when the incidents took place, while others heard nothing.
(…)
"It is increasingly apparent the Cubans are involved in some way," a senior US official said. "The Cubans are all over our people while they are down there. If it was a few attacks, you could say that maybe it was the Russians or Iranians screwing with us, but when it happens so many times, especially in the same hotel, it is hard for us believe someone can get close enough to our people so many times. Unless these are beams from outer space."
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/23/po...ack/index.html
The beams from outer space may just be irony for the time being, but the idea would be less harmful to diplomatic relations between the USA and Cuba than the current conspiracy theory that may lead to the withdrawal of US diplomats from the embassy in Havana.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th September 2017, 07:18 AM   #113
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BBC Breaking

The US is to pull most of its staff from its embassy in Cuba after they suffered "sonic attacks", American media report.

The US is withdrawing about 60% of its embassy staff in response to attacks on diplomats, senior unnamed officials were quoted as saying.

It is also warning Americans not to visit the country because some attacks occurred in hotels, the sources say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41446697
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Old 29th September 2017, 07:35 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
BBC Breaking

The US is to pull most of its staff from its embassy in Cuba after they suffered "sonic attacks", American media report.

The US is withdrawing about 60% of its embassy staff in response to attacks on diplomats, senior unnamed officials were quoted as saying.

It is also warning Americans not to visit the country because some attacks occurred in hotels, the sources say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41446697
If it wasn't happening I'd have said that it sounds crazy and an excuse to pull out diplomats and to cripple tourism. Because it's happening, that couldn't be the case and it really must be happening
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Old 29th September 2017, 08:28 AM   #115
dann
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The same thing is now reported in the Washington Post:
Even though “clues about the circumstances of the incidents seem to make any explanation scientifically implausible,” “the U.S. now has determined there were “specific attacks” on American personnel in Cuba,” and the “United States is warning Americans against visiting Cuba and ordering more than half of its Havana embassy personnel to leave the island, senior officials said Friday.
The Washington Post, Sep. 29, 2017

PS "determined"!!!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 29th September 2017 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 29th September 2017, 12:50 PM   #116
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Did you expect the government investigators to tell us EVERYTHING?
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Old 29th September 2017, 01:44 PM   #117
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Quote:
To medical investigators’ dismay, the symptoms in the attacks vary widely from person to person. In addition to hearing loss and concussions, some experienced nausea, headaches and ear-ringing, and The Associated Press has reported some now suffer from problems with concentration and common word recall.
This whole thing sounds like bull excrement to me.

Quote:
Some U.S. diplomats reported hearing loud noises or feeling vibrations when the incidents occurred, but others heard and felt nothing yet reported symptoms later. In some cases, the effects were narrowly confined, with victims able to walk “in” and “out” of blaring noises audible in only certain rooms or parts of rooms, the AP has reported
Sound familiar? I believe we've heard this kind of crap before in the paranormal forum. One hundred percent BS. Send in the Ghost Hunters! It's a loose A/C vent!
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Old 29th September 2017, 01:47 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This whole thing sounds like bull excrement to me.



Sound familiar? I believe we've heard this kind of crap before in the paranormal forum. One hundred percent BS. Send in the Ghost Hunters! It's a loose A/C vent!
It's the Scoleri Brothers!
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Old 29th September 2017, 01:48 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Did you expect the government investigators to tell us EVERYTHING?
No, I expect nothing but lies from the government, even when its investigators find nothing to back up the lies. But then I've heard a number of similar lies over the years: about imaginary attacks, and about actual terrorists who enjoy the support of the US:
Luis Posada Carriles
Orlando Bosch
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th September 2017, 01:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The same thing is now reported in the Washington Post:
Even though “clues about the circumstances of the incidents seem to make any explanation scientifically implausible,” “the U.S. now has determined there were “specific attacks” on American personnel in Cuba,” and the “United States is warning Americans against visiting Cuba and ordering more than half of its Havana embassy personnel to leave the island, senior officials said Friday.
The Washington Post, Sep. 29, 2017

PS "determined"!!!
From the same article comes the answer to all this:

“The reduction in diplomatic presence was made to ensure the safety of our personnel,” said one official. “We maintain diplomatic relations with Cuba, and our work in Cuba will be guided by national security and foreign policy goals of the United States.”

There is now about $300M in American tourist dollars to Cuba on the table in addition to more millions in investment. (Total tourism of $2B likely affected as well)

Trump already said he thought Obama gave up to much too soon without more changes in Cuba. This is an opportune way to indicate we are threatening to shut those open doors to get it all back into negotiations. Trump can say "Look, the Obama deal was bad, but my new agreement is much better for America. I make the best deals. Believe me."

But what specifically will Cuba need to do? The younger Castro has already made significant changes in the direction we wanted and American business was set to do well.
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