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Old 20th September 2017, 12:27 PM   #201
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Really? America is too big to organize a piss-up in a brewery?
We are just exceptionally incompetent. American exceptionalism at its best
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:27 PM   #202
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Some police forces in the US already have policies about proportional force.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...n-using-force/
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:28 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
They can make a lot of tactical mistakes, the goal is to not make them, and by doing so survive.
Survive? It's not the Hunger Games.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:29 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Some police forces in the US already have policies about proportional force.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...n-using-force/
But do they actually enforce them? You can have what ever written policy you want, does it actually change how they conduct themselves?
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:29 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I have no reason to assume the clip doesn't start at the beginning of the confrontation.
I have every reason to believe that it doesn't start at the beginning of the confrontation. Whoever was filming started filming because there was a confrontation. That takes some time. Ergo, filming started after the confrontation started. Otherwise, you're claiming that it's just random chance that a guy was randomly filming a road and this random event took place in front of his camera.

That's simply not credible.

Now, it's an open question of how much of the confrontation was missed. Maybe it was several minutes. Maybe it was a matter of seconds. Maybe those additional seconds are just more of the same and don't really change anything. But we didn't see the start. That's pretty damned obvious.

Quote:
There's nothing indicating that the rest of the surrounding of this parking garage isn't the same as what's seen in the clip.
And there's nothing indicating that it is the same either. That's the thing about missing information: it's missing.

Quote:
And as others noted above, the police can even rotate officers in and out of such a confrontation, or bring him someone who is trained in de-escalating a situation with a disturbed individual.
How long do you think that takes?

Quote:
Frankly, I cannot see an immediate threat in the way Scout is behaving. He only slowly walks towards the cops and the "weapon" in his hand is in no way pointed at them.
How far away from the officer who fired was Scout? You don't know that, do you? So you've really got no idea what kind of threat he was.

And hand position can change rapidly enough that it's no measure of safety.

Quote:
But I guess, this is down to me applying European standards of an immediate threat and not the American standard of a reasonable threat.
My argument isn't that you're applying the wrong standard. My argument is that you don't actually have enough information to apply any standard.

Quote:
Some have suggested police should be paid more
Not relevant to anything I said.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:32 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You tell me, you suggested it, I assumed you looked into combat mechanics before hand to give yourself an informed opinion.

You did do that. ..didn't you? Otherwise you would just be giving suggestions with no basis in reality.

(Que stock combat quote from the first page of Google in...)
You are the one who claimed it was a tactical mistake. I assumed you had proof to back that up.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:33 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So in your opinion then, every situation can be handled in the same way?
No. But the conversation was in a gerneral vein and you made a blanket statement. I thought I'd continue in the same method.

If you want to talk specifics, we can talk specifics, but don't shift the conversation from generals to specifics in between my go and your go please.



Quote:
I'm really guessing you didn't look into things much before posting.
Guess away. If you review the article above, there's video of it actually happening along with an interview with a US policeman who advocates, in certain situations, not simply opening fire but retreating and 'buying time'



Quote:
That would be like if a six foot 230 pound man said to me "why couldn't you just pin your mugger till the police got there. " different situations with different people play out differently.
Yes. That's true. I assume you want to talk about specifics now, no generalities as before?

Quote:
Jesus man "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" is a saying for a reason. You are dangerous enough to be a threat but still likely to lose.
Again, read the article and the policeman advocating that sometimes a different approach is successful along with the video of the different approach being successful.

Quote:
Add in this person instigating the fight, and it's sad but acceptable to me.
I don't accept that anyone started a fight. They might have looked like they might be ready to, but nobody moved a weapon into range of anyone else.


Quote:
Personally is like to think I'd hold out a bit longer than he would have, but I'm kinda known for taking stupid risks on the I'd occasions when violence happens. If I took my attitude to being a cop I'd be dead or fired.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:34 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I have every reason to believe that it doesn't start at the beginning of the confrontation. Whoever was filming started filming because there was a confrontation. That takes some time. Ergo, filming started after the confrontation started. Otherwise, you're claiming that it's just random chance that a guy was randomly filming a road and this random event took place in front of his camera.

That's simply not credible.

Now, it's an open question of how much of the confrontation was missed. Maybe it was several minutes. Maybe it was a matter of seconds. Maybe those additional seconds are just more of the same and don't really change anything. But we didn't see the start. That's pretty damned obvious.



And there's nothing indicating that it is the same either. That's the thing about missing information: it's missing.



How long do you think that takes?



How far away from the officer who fired was Scout? You don't know that, do you? So you've really got no idea what kind of threat he was.

And hand position can change rapidly enough that it's no measure of safety.



My argument isn't that you're applying the wrong standard. My argument is that you don't actually have enough information to apply any standard.



Not relevant to anything I said.
Is there a time limit? Go over it and you get shot?
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:35 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Is there a time limit? Go over it and you get shot?
Of course there is. They are not going to put up with this disrespectful crap for long.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:39 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
That isn't what the article says. It points out that shootings are somethimes the only option. But they shouldn't be the first option. You should try reading it.
The police in the USA will always shoot more than any other western country's police force. The USA is culturally more aggressive. Aggressive policing causes an aggressive response, which causes more aggressive policing etc. Or vice versa.

But, with proper training, the police could start to de-escalate and that would result in a de-escalation of the aggression to them.

I think the big problem is persuading the tough guys that the tough guy act does not work.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:39 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It is not an excuse is a fact. It is why police are armed in the first place. One does not survive many fair fights with a dedicated attacker, it is why we attempt to make sure police when they have to fight, are equipped to do so.

It's basic logic, if it wasn't people would go to war with boxing gloves instead of firearms.

See? Again. Excuses instead of thinking. What is there in anything I've posted that suggests a "fair fight"? I've clearly enumerated a list of tools that cops should have, and do have everywhere else in the world, that they can and should be using. Is using a riot shield a "fair fight"? Is wearing a stab-proof vest a "fair fight"? How about using a taser, or a beanbag round? How about my suggestion that they have other cops back them up? Is 3 or more on one a "fair fight"? I've also said firearms can be used if all else fails. Bringing a knife to a gun fight is the oldest cliche for an unfair fight there is.

And of course, as others have pointed out, you're trying to make it look like everyone a cop interacts with is a "dedicated attacker". That's just complete ********, as anyone who has looked at this video can see.

Admit it: You just want to find an excuse to let the cops keep killing people, even if it's not necessary. If you didn't you'd at least consider things like this:


Originally Posted by ddt View Post
From the site of the Dutch police:

My translation:

This "only aim for the torso" seems to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

...and think that maybe just possibly not every situation a cop finds themself in is an immediate kill-or-be-killed scenario.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:40 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Is there a time limit?
There may be, depending on the actions of the suspect.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:52 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The police in the USA will always shoot more than any other western country's police force. The USA is culturally more aggressive. Aggressive policing causes an aggressive response, which causes more aggressive policing etc. Or vice versa.

But, with proper training, the police could start to de-escalate and that would result in a de-escalation of the aggression to them.

I think the big problem is persuading the tough guys that the tough guy act does not work.
I just can't understand why this aggression seems to be encouraged. I've been in Glasgow when there was a bomb scare and the police were great. They kept people back without being loud, shouty ********. I actually feel safer when the police are around and I can't imagine why any officer wouldn't want to make people feel that way.

People shouldn't have to fear the police.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:53 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But do they actually enforce them? You can have what ever written policy you want, does it actually change how they conduct themselves?
The article seems to indicate fewer police shootings. It doesn't say if crime went up or down.

Nearly every small town/city/county/state/university in the USA has it's own police force with it's own standards and it's own training.

I can travel just a few miles in my state and be under the jurisdiction of several different police forces during the trip. That's not including "company police", such as college campus police or railroad line police.

My state has "company police", where companies and organizations can create their own police force with police powers on their property, as long as they meet certification requirements. These company cops can also continue a felony pursuit if it starts in their jurisdiction.

Tyson chicken, for example, can have it's own police force in my state, with jurisdiction on Tyson company property.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:53 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I have every reason to believe that it doesn't start at the beginning of the confrontation. Whoever was filming started filming because there was a confrontation. That takes some time. Ergo, filming started after the confrontation started. Otherwise, you're claiming that it's just random chance that a guy was randomly filming a road and this random event took place in front of his camera.

That's simply not credible.

Now, it's an open question of how much of the confrontation was missed. Maybe it was several minutes. Maybe it was a matter of seconds. Maybe those additional seconds are just more of the same and don't really change anything. But we didn't see the start. That's pretty damned obvious.
You're right there. But from what we see on the film, we I think we can safely infer that it hadn't been going on for more than a minute.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And there's nothing indicating that it is the same either. That's the thing about missing information: it's missing.
You do have some general knowledge and thus expectation how American buildings and campuses are laid out.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How long do you think that takes?
It's campus police. Driving from the station to the place of the confrontation takes no longer than five minutes.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How far away from the officer who fired was Scout? You don't know that, do you? So you've really got no idea what kind of threat he was.
Really? You can measure that taken from the height of the persons. They were about ten meters apart.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And hand position can change rapidly enough that it's no measure of safety.
They had been moving slowly. There's no expectation there's a sudden lunge or sudden change of hand position. This goes to the point that police may be expected to take some risk. For instance, like cabbies or firefighters do in their daily jobs.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
My argument isn't that you're applying the wrong standard. My argument is that you don't actually have enough information to apply any standard.
We all work on the knowledge we have, and thus we make provisional conclusions.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not relevant to anything I said.
Which is why I introduced that with "Some have suggested".
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:55 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
I just can't understand why this aggression seems to be encouraged. I've been in Glasgow when there was a bomb scare and the police were great. They kept people back without being loud, shouty ********. I actually feel safer when the police are around and I can't imagine why any officer wouldn't want to make people feel that way.

People shouldn't have to fear the police.
Becuase it is a war between the cops and lawlessness. See their chanting in recent issues.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:58 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The article seems to indicate fewer police shootings. It doesn't say if crime went up or down.

Nearly every small town/city/county/state/university in the USA has it's own police force with it's own standards and it's own training.
And many of them don't like talking about their policies. The ACLU asked many departments for their use of force policies under FOI act, many refused to give anything and some just gave them a bunch of unrelated redacted pages.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:01 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
My state has "company police", where companies and organizations can create their own police force with police powers on their property, as long as they meet certification requirements. These company cops can also continue a felony pursuit if it starts in their jurisdiction.

Tyson chicken, for example, can have it's own police force in my state, with jurisdiction on Tyson company property.


I'm not sure which emoji is the most appropriate here, but I'm a bit lost for words. What kind of idiot thought this was a good idea?
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:03 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I've never seen reports of that. Do you have a cite?
I can vouch for it. I don't have a cite either but I regularly read about precisely this in the papers when I lived in Holland.

ETA: Ah, bedankt ddt!

From the Dutch police website: In die situaties heeft de agent geleerd op de benen van de verdachte te richten. ("In such situations the officer is trained to aim at the suspect's legs")

Last edited by TX50; 20th September 2017 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:12 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So no then?

Would you not then say, with little to no experience in the situation your opinion is not as fact based as those that have experience or training?

Btw if you are confused if it was an attack by a dedicated attacker, the fact you don't have a large piece of your face missing tells you it was not.
I think the primary problem here is lack of training. It is becoming apparent that these cops lacked the tools and training to deal with this situation. It is not fair to them or the people they police.

I would hope there would be a concerted effort to change that instead of just trying the defend the outcome here. Continuous improvement should be most important with those we trust to make life and death decisions.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:15 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post


I'm not sure which emoji is the most appropriate here, but I'm a bit lost for words. What kind of idiot thought this was a good idea?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compan...#United_States

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat.../GS_74E-6.html
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:17 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post


I'm not sure which emoji is the most appropriate here, but I'm a bit lost for words. What kind of idiot thought this was a good idea?
Mine owners and such that weren't real big on employees having unions.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:18 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
I can vouch for it. I don't have a cite either but I regularly read about precisely this in the papers when I lived in Holland.

ETA: Ah, bedankt ddt!

From the Dutch police website: In die situaties heeft de agent geleerd op de benen van de verdachte te richten. ("In such situations the officer is trained to aim at the suspect's legs")
Graag gedaan! You're welcome!, TX50.

For those who doubt it, this is what google turned up in its first two pages (except articles that explain "when do the police aim for the legs", and excluding doubles):
Badhoevedorp, 24 July 2017
Amsterdam, 23 June 2013
's-Gravenzande, 9 October 2016 (man wielding a katana, with video).
Tilburg, 14 September 2009 (a psychotic man who didn't react to pepperspray and then wielded three knives and threw bottles at the officers)
Wijk aan Zee, 25 June 2015 (a man who tried to hurt himself with a knife)
Harderwijk, 13 October 2014 (man who fled after a bank heist)
Winterswijk, 7 June 2017
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:25 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That doesn't really answer the question who thought it up, but it underscores that the USA is (nearly) unique in this respect.
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Mine owners and such that weren't real big on employees having unions.
That explains a lot. They found Pinkerton too expensive?
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:28 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're right there. But from what we see on the film, we I think we can safely infer that it hadn't been going on for more than a minute.
I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. It's certainly quite possible, but not even close to a given.

Quote:
It's campus police. Driving from the station to the place of the confrontation takes no longer than five minutes.
And all of this played out much more rapidly than that, if the confrontation started within a minute of the video beginning.

Quote:
Really? You can measure that taken from the height of the persons. They were about ten meters apart.
No, you cannot measure. The officer who fired is not visible. Neither is Scout, when the shooting happens.

Quote:
They had been moving slowly. There's no expectation there's a sudden lunge or sudden change of hand position.
Suppose you wanted to stab an officer. Would you rush at them with knife upraised from a long distance away? Or would you approach slowly, until you were close enough that you could strike quickly without the officer having time to respond?

Moving slowly now doesn't mean you'll only ever move slowly.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:35 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
I just can't understand why this aggression seems to be encouraged. I've been in Glasgow when there was a bomb scare and the police were great. They kept people back without being loud, shouty ********. I actually feel safer when the police are around and I can't imagine why any officer wouldn't want to make people feel that way.

People shouldn't have to fear the police.
In my experience from being a security guard in Boston, US police are more aggressive as people as more aggressive to them because they are more aggressive etc. It is cultural. It probably goes back to the wild west and policing huge waves of immigrants from all over the world in a piecemeal ad hoc way. Mix in all the guns and you have a perfect storm.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:40 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And what is the population of Scotland?

It is much easier to keep the peace with less people.
This was already addressed by Abooga in this very thread . . .

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000

I just found this

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents.

From http://theconversation.com/why-do-am...ean-cops-49696
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:47 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And what is the population of Scotland?

It is much easier to keep the peace with less people.
This was already addressed by Abooga in this very thread . . .

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000

I just found this

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents.

From http://theconversation.com/why-do-am...ean-cops-49696
Interesting statistic in that article regarding smaller populations:

"...Dangers in small places

More than a quarter of deadly force victims were killed in towns with fewer than 25,000 people despite the fact that only 17% of the US population lives in such towns.
...."
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Old 20th September 2017, 02:01 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. It's certainly quite possible, but not even close to a given.

And all of this played out much more rapidly than that, if the confrontation started within a minute of the video beginning.
It may indeed have been going on longer. According to Scout's lawyer, the area was secured (BBC). So, to answer your earlier question, there was no risk for bystanders either. The earlier cited Scranton case lasted a whole 45 minutes.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, you cannot measure. The officer who fired is not visible. Neither is Scout, when the shooting happens.
Look again at both videos at Buzzfeed (link from OP). You can see Scout when he's shot in both videos, and the second one shows the shooting officer a mere second before.

BTW, if you piece them together there are 5 cops visible there: the shooter, two next to him, one who backs up into the parking garage, and one who comes in from the left in the first video after the shot.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Suppose you wanted to stab an officer. Would you rush at them with knife upraised from a long distance away? Or would you approach slowly, until you were close enough that you could strike quickly without the officer having time to respond?

Moving slowly now doesn't mean you'll only ever move slowly.
And this goes again to the matter of what risk is acceptable. Reviewing the video, it doesn't seem a likely move. They's wavering where to go, first they moves to the officer who backs up into the car park, and then to the shooter.
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Old 20th September 2017, 02:07 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Interesting statistic in that article regarding smaller populations:

"...Dangers in small places

More than a quarter of deadly force victims were killed in towns with fewer than 25,000 people despite the fact that only 17% of the US population lives in such towns.
...."
That study is quite the contradictory mess.

In the abstract:

“Police violence is both a tool and product of strategies to maintain racial segregation and inequality. However, racism cannot explain the fact that police lethality is greatest in states where African Americans are least prevalent. Elevated police killings are also rooted in America's prevailing ideology (and mythology) of self-reliance and limited government. Neoliberal ideology helped some politicians cut gaping holes in the social safety net, leaving ill-equipped and fearful police officers to deal with desperate people who lack adequate treatment and support, yet who have easy access to weapons.”

So “Police violence is both a tool and product of strategies to maintain racial segregation and inequality” and yet “police lethality is greatest in states where African Americans are least prevalent”. Talk about having your cake and eating it!

Then the study goes on to say:

“Whereas police fear seemingly triggers most police killings, some of them result from police officers deliberately putting themselves in situations where deadly force becomes reasonable or permissible. Examples include initiating or escalating physical confrontations with agitated and physically larger people (e.g., Michael Brown and Eric Garner), or barging into the homes of people who may be armed (e.g., routine SWAT raids).”

Yeah, well sometimes the Police should arrest “agitated and physically larger people”. And sometimes they should (with a warrant) “barge into the homes of people who may be armed”. And yeah, these activities may be more dangerous than the routine suburban neighborhood patrol.

Jeez, I hope this junk wasn’t taxpayer funded.
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Old 20th September 2017, 07:14 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Survive? It's not the Hunger Games.
Are you for real?

You realize knives do harm right? People were using them to kill each other long before guns were around.
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Old 20th September 2017, 07:16 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
You are the one who claimed it was a tactical mistake. I assumed you had proof to back that up.
I'm not going to bother if I don't have good faith you have any knowledge on the subject,which i expect if you are debating a subject.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:30 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The police in the USA will always shoot more than any other western country's police force. The USA is culturally more aggressive. Aggressive policing causes an aggressive response, which causes more aggressive policing etc. Or vice versa.

But, with proper training, the police could start to de-escalate and that would result in a de-escalation of the aggression to them.

I think the big problem is persuading the tough guys that the tough guy act does not work.

It looks to me like it works just fine. From the tough guys' perspective, anyhow.

They get to shoot and kill people without fear of repercussion. All they have to do is claim to feel "threatened" and they skate.

Why would any of the tough guys want to have that changed?
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:35 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That doesn't really answer the question who thought it up, but it underscores that the USA is (nearly) unique in this respect.

That explains a lot. They found Pinkerton too expensive?
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That doesn't really answer the question who thought it up, but it underscores that the USA is (nearly) unique in this respect.
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Mine owners and such that weren't real big on employees having unions.
That explains a lot. They found Pinkerton too expensive?[/quote]


Pinkerton was the "company police".
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:27 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It looks to me like it works just fine. From the tough guys' perspective, anyhow.

They get to shoot and kill people without fear of repercussion. All they have to do is claim to feel "threatened" and they skate.

Why would any of the tough guys want to have that changed?
Indeed, which is why i refer to it as a tough guy ACT. They are not really tough guys, since as soon as any risk appears, they shoot to kill.

Meanwhile, in Scotland, where there has always been a knife culture and crime is again on the rise;

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...too-leniently/

"Police Scotland figures show the first half of 2016 there were 1, 720 incidents where people were caught with offensive weapons, including knives."

the police are primarily unarmed. The Scottish police have tactics and self defence with baton, CS spray and body armour which means they will tackle offenders without a gun. The US police don't bother with that and they just shoot to kill. Then, Americans who quite frankly are supporting murder, claim that a US cop who shoots a knife carrier dead is doing the only reasonable and sensible thing.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:32 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Are you for real?

You realize knives do harm right? People were using them to kill each other long before guns were around.
You do realise that the US police are the ONLY police in the western world who shoot to kill when they are faced with a knife carrier?

For example, the UK police deal with knives by negotiation and containment, baton, CS, body armour and tazer. A gun is the last resort. You have been shown the Dutch police shoot at legs and will use warning shots.

Why do you support such a violent and heavy handed method, when alternatives have been shown to work?
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:49 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Agreed, firing on an aggressive suspect is sometimes the justifiable last resort. I think what the discussion is here, at least in part, is whether it is fair to ask police to stick their necks out a little farther against someone like Scout, instead of shooting. Jobs entail risk; it has been noted that garbage collectors face a much higher casualty rate on the job (not trying to trivialize LEO risk here). Killing a suspect is weighty enough that having other viable methods has got to be an option. I don't think saying 'drop it' a few times while Scout slowly shuffles around with a small tool by his side is remotely enough.
I would agree with this. Police officers should receive training in various techniques, both non-lethal violence and verbal judo. In Sweden, you attend police academy for 2 and a half years, including half a year as aspiring officer, before you are eligible to be hired as a police officer. Once you are hired, you are hired by the state (which in Sweden's case means the national government). Police are trained in various de-escalation tactics as well as non-lethal take-down techniques.

This training is bare minimum for being able to function as an officer, imo. Then there's the stress factor, which cannot be fully trained away. Once your pulse reaches certain levels, you are no longer able to act rationally, and you cannot do anything requiring fine motor skills. At this point, you revert back to
ingrained muscle memory. This is often the moment when someone gets shot. It's not rational to blame the officer for what happened in such a situation. You could argue that more training should be necessary, but then you'd have to be able to say what is enough training.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:11 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You do realise that the US police are the ONLY police in the western world who shoot to kill when they are faced with a knife carrier?
This is wrong. The Swedish police do so as well.

We had a local incident a couple of years ago. A guy flipped out and took a knife to an elderly couple in their apartment, killing them both. He then fled out into the street where he was confronted by police (it was only a couple of hundred meters from here, so the station was close). Police brought in dog-teams and negotiators. Then the guy started advancing towards one of the cops, knife in hand. After several attempts to verbally get the guy to comply with officer's order to put the weapon down, he was shot and killed.

In the trial (the police man was tried for "tjänstefel" (approx. "wrongful act"), the police man told the court how he was waiting for the dog-team to act by releasing their dog, and the dog-team said that they were waiting for the cop to fire his gun.

The police man was aquitted.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:25 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
This is wrong. The Swedish police do so as well.

We had a local incident a couple of years ago. A guy flipped out and took a knife to an elderly couple in their apartment, killing them both. He then fled out into the street where he was confronted by police (it was only a couple of hundred meters from here, so the station was close). Police brought in dog-teams and negotiators. Then the guy started advancing towards one of the cops, knife in hand. After several attempts to verbally get the guy to comply with officer's order to put the weapon down, he was shot and killed.

In the trial (the police man was tried for "tjänstefel" (approx. "wrongful act"), the police man told the court how he was waiting for the dog-team to act by releasing their dog, and the dog-team said that they were waiting for the cop to fire his gun.

The police man was aquitted.
Which means I am right because clearly Sweden does not have a shoot to kill policy. They put the cop on trial and found a mistake had been made in the confusion between the dog team and the cop. You have also not found an equivalent incident to the one under discussion, Scout had not killed anyone prior to advancing on the police.

The Scottish police will shoot a knife carrier, as a last resort, when there is imminent threat to life and no alternative. If someone with a knife advances on the police, where the knife is being carried in a way it is ready for use and the body language of the attacker shows an attack is now being carried out, he/she can be shot.

The US police are the ONLY police in the western world who routinely shoot to kill, when there are numerous other options available.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:33 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which means I am right because clearly Sweden does not have a shoot to kill policy. They put the cop on trial and found a mistake had been made in the confusion between the dog team and the cop. You have also not found an equivalent incident to the one under discussion, Scout had not killed anyone prior to advancing on the police.

The Scottish police will shoot a knife carrier, as a last resort, when there is imminent threat to life and no alternative. If someone with a knife advances on the police, where the knife is being carried in a way it is ready for use and the body language of the attacker shows an attack is now being carried out, he/she can be shot.

The US police are the ONLY police in the western world who routinely shoot to kill, when there are numerous other options available.
I was only responding to the line I quoted which asserted that the US is the only nation in which police shoot to kill knife carriers.
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