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Old 21st September 2017, 02:42 AM   #241
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OK, I should have expanded to say shoot to kill (no attempt at warning shots or shoot to stop) when there are alternatives and no immediate threat to life.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:46 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
OK, I should have expanded to say shoot to kill (no attempt at warning shots or shoot to stop) when there are alternatives and no immediate threat to life.
Fair enough.

Just to clarify, in the incident I talked about, it was not known that the guy had killed two people when he was shot. They were found later. He was covered in blood though, but that could have been his own.

In the situation at hand, the police really had no way of knowing what Scout had done Before advancing on the cops. I think it's fair to assume that the police officers did not know who they had in front of them.
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:02 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I'm not going to bother if I don't have good faith you have any knowledge on the subject,which i expect if you are debating a subject.
You are the one insisting the police were being attacked despite a video showing they weren't.

You asked me if I had ever been attacked and then dismissed it as nothing even though it was worse that what Scout was doing.

You claim walking backwards is a tactical mistake that lessens officers chances of survival or something but these officers managed to do it quite well until one of them fired.

You keep saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" when there was no actual fighting. Or even any attempt to start a fight on anyones part.

And you think you are arguing in good faith?
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:07 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Are you for real?

You realize knives do harm right? People were using them to kill each other long before guns were around.
Why don't you want officers to even try something other than shooting? No one is saying they should let themselves be stabbed. Literally no one. But they can keep a safe distance in instances like this and use their words.

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2...stop_poli.html
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:27 AM   #245
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Being threatened doesn't matter, refuse to follow police orders and that is a crime worthy of death.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...ting-deaf.html

This is why deaf people like black children should never be allowed out of their houses.
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Old 21st September 2017, 06:33 AM   #246
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Should have shot or round-house kicked the knife out of they's hand IMO.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:21 AM   #247
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So there are a few details I've now seen reported that I don't think have shown up in this thread so far.

1) Scott left suicide notes. This wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing, this wasn't a psychotic break, it was all deliberate and planned.
2) When Scott called the police, he told them that the suspicious lurker may have had a gun. Police are going to treat a suspect with a possible gun differently than a suspect without one. They will be far more likely to use deadly force, and that's what Scott wanted.

Scott knew what he was doing. And what he did was evil. He hurt his family and friends by committing suicide, but he didn't even have the courage to do it by his own hands. Instead, he pawned off the guilt for that action on a police officer, who will now have to deal with the trauma of having killed someone.

Now, it's a separate question of whether police procedures and training should be changed. There may indeed be room for improvement there. And it would have been better if the situation had been resolved non-lethally. But the officer who pulled the trigger isn't the villain here. Scott is.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:40 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That doesn't really answer the question who thought it up, but it underscores that the USA is (nearly) unique in this respect.

That explains a lot. They found Pinkerton too expensive?
This was the only history I could find for NC.

https://www.aservicesgroup.com/compa...orth-carolina/
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:56 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So there are a few details I've now seen reported that I don't think have shown up in this thread so far.

1) Scott left suicide notes. This wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing, this wasn't a psychotic break, it was all deliberate and planned.
2) When Scott called the police, he told them that the suspicious lurker may have had a gun. Police are going to treat a suspect with a possible gun differently than a suspect without one. They will be far more likely to use deadly force, and that's what Scott wanted.

Scott knew what he was doing. And what he did was evil. He hurt his family and friends by committing suicide, but he didn't even have the courage to do it by his own hands. Instead, he pawned off the guilt for that action on a police officer, who will now have to deal with the trauma of having killed someone.

Now, it's a separate question of whether police procedures and training should be changed. There may indeed be room for improvement there. And it would have been better if the situation had been resolved non-lethally. But the officer who pulled the trigger isn't the villain here. Scott is.
The mentally ill are villains?

The cop did not have to comply with the suicide-by-cop request. He chose to. Because Scout was slowly walking. Nowhere near range to be a threat to the weapons-drawn-and-ready-to-fire officers, or anyone else. No lethal attack by Scout was being defended against.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:57 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
The mentally ill are villains?
Of course. Up next we need to start pulling down those suicide lines on bridges.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:15 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
The mentally ill are villains?
They can be, just like everyone else can be. Mental illness doesn't absolve you of any and all wrong.

Again, this wasn't a psychotic break. This was a deliberate and knowing choice. And it was an evil one. I have pity for those driven to suicide. But not when they do intentional harm to others in the process.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:28 AM   #252
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I would bet a closed Leatherman tool, would be the equivalent of someone coming at a cop with brass knuckles or a blackjack.

Those tools are heavy and are probably deadly without the knife extended.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:29 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They can be, just like everyone else can be. Mental illness doesn't absolve you of any and all wrong.

Again, this wasn't a psychotic break. This was a deliberate and knowing choice. And it was an evil one. I have pity for those driven to suicide. But not when they do intentional harm to others in the process.
You don't agree that the mentally ill are not entirely responsible for their actions? Not talking about APD. Depression and suicidal disorders: you think they are making decisions with rational intent that they are held responsible for?
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:30 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would bet a closed Leatherman tool, would be the equivalent of someone coming at a cop with brass knuckles or a blackjack.

Those tools are heavy and are probably deadly without the knife extended.
Yep police are always justified killing anyone with anything in their hands.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:51 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
You don't agree that the mentally ill are not entirely responsible for their actions?
I think that depends. Someone having a psychotic break is not responsible for their actions. Someone who is merely depressed has mitigating circumstances for harm they do to themselves. That does not excuse what they choose to directly do to others.

Quote:
Depression and suicidal disorders: you think they are making decisions with rational intent that they are held responsible for?
Scott had a specific goal: death by cop. He planned and executed a plan to achieve that goal, a plan which was logical, efficient, and successful. That plan demonstrates both intent and rationality. I see no reason not to hold him responsible.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:52 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course. Up next we need to start pulling down those suicide lines on bridges.
Straw men is all you have to contribute to this thread.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:59 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep police are always justified killing anyone with anything in their hands.
Well, this is the USA. There are 3-4 hundred million guns in private hands.
Probably best not to have anything in your hands when approaching the police.

Also probably not good to report yourself to the police as carrying a gun and then approach the police carrying something metallic in your hand.

Then again, it may be best not to call the police at all.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:09 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think that depends. Someone having a psychotic break is not responsible for their actions. Someone who is merely depressed has mitigating circumstances for harm they do to themselves. That does not excuse what they choose to directly do to others.
I think suicidal is a notch or two to the right of merely depressed.

Quote:
Scott had a specific goal: death by cop. He planned and executed a plan to achieve that goal, a plan which was logical, efficient, and successful. That plan demonstrates both intent and rationality. I see no reason not to hold him responsible.
I see your point, but could his planning have been more haphazard than it appears? Suicide note, a call, and a poorly orchestrated confrontation seems to me like loose and clumsy planning. The OP, after all, partially brings up the question 'Why the hell did the cop shoot? There was no live threat'. Scout's actions in the video seemed like he was not actively trying to get shot (as in screaming and charging the cops) and that if he was thinking rationally, he would expect the police to take him down intact, IMO. He was arguably successful only because one cop was trigger-happy.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:24 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, this is the USA. There are 3-4 hundred million guns in private hands.
Probably best not to have anything in your hands when approaching the police.

Also probably not good to report yourself to the police as carrying a gun and then approach the police carrying something metallic in your hand.

Then again, it may be best not to call the police at all.
Yes I know, on the plus side calling in a black with a gun seems to be a good way of getting rid of your neighbors. The police will always shoot first as soon as they see any black person with something in their hands then.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:32 AM   #260
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I thought I read that Schultz was carrying an opened multitool, but that the blade was not out. Since he told police that he might have a gun, and was trying to get shot, maybe he had the handle flipped open to loosely look like a pistol, but the cops recognized it as a knife and screwed up the ruse?
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:43 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Straw men is all you have to contribute to this thread.
This thread?
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:34 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would bet a closed Leatherman tool, would be the equivalent of someone coming at a cop with brass knuckles or a blackjack.

Those tools are heavy and are probably deadly without the knife extended.
I honestly don't think so, that being said, I've watched many videos in which people describe which everyday objects can be carried for protection, and the multi tool does come up quite a bit.
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:36 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
You don't agree that the mentally ill are not entirely responsible for their actions? Not talking about APD. Depression and suicidal disorders: you think they are making decisions with rational intent that they are held responsible for?
And that is what court is for. No Court on earth would convict a civilian if a mentally ill person attempted to harm them and they protected themselves. The law isn't "if you are mentally ill you don't have to follow the law.
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:39 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep police are always justified killing anyone with anything in their hands.
No, only when it's a reasonable threat.

If I told a friend of yours I have a gun and im coming to kill you and then showed up at your house with violent intent, would you not feel justified in stopping me with any tool at your disposal?

If you say no, I honestly don't believe you as you seem to find light skin tones threatening, let alone a weapon.
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:40 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes I know, on the plus side calling in a black with a gun seems to be a good way of getting rid of your neighbors. The police will always shoot first as soon as they see any black person with something in their hands then.
Is that what happened here? You realize this guy called them himself right?
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:42 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
No, only when it's a reasonable threat.
Which is when you don't drop it within a couple of seconds of being yelled at by the police.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:02 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They can be, just like everyone else can be. Mental illness doesn't absolve you of any and all wrong.

Again, this wasn't a psychotic break. This was a deliberate and knowing choice. And it was an evil one. I have pity for those driven to suicide. But not when they do intentional harm to others in the process.
False dichotomy? I don't think leaving multiple suicide notes is evidence of good mental health.

And I still haven't seen in the video where he harmed someone.

That these cops were so easily put into a position where they felt their life was in peril by a young person walking aimlessly with a knife is a failure of training and supply. Whether the young person was a drunk or mentally ill, they should be prepared for exactly this situation.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:11 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes I know, on the plus side calling in a black with a gun seems to be a good way of getting rid of your neighbors. The police will always shoot first as soon as they see any black person with something in their hands then.
Fortunately I know that's not really true.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:20 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
False dichotomy? I don't think leaving multiple suicide notes is evidence of good mental health.
You are confused. Mental illness is a much broader category than psychotic breaks. Saying someone isn't having a psychotic break does not mean that they are in good mental health.

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And I still haven't seen in the video where he harmed someone.
Do you think the officer who shot him is indifferent to his death? Do you think he's glad that he killed Scott? Or do you think, perhaps, he's torn up about it and feels bad?

Because I think the latter is far, far more likely than the former.

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That these cops were so easily put into a position where they felt their life was in peril by a young person walking aimlessly with a knife is a failure of training and supply.
Perhaps. But that doesn't place any blame on the individual officer, nor does it absolve Scott.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:46 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are confused. Mental illness is a much broader category than psychotic breaks. Saying someone isn't having a psychotic break does not mean that they are in good mental health.
I may well be confused. It is it impossible for someone in a psychotic break to write multiple suicide notes, dial 911 and go outside with a knife?

In other words, what is the basis of your diagnosis that this was not a psychotic break?


Quote:
Do you think the officer who shot him is indifferent to his death? Do you think he's glad that he killed Scott? Or do you think, perhaps, he's torn up about it and feels bad?

Because I think the latter is far, far more likely than the former.
I misread that as physical harm. Mea culpa. I agree that the officer will not have an easy time of this.

I still don't know that the harm was intentional. This could have been a cry for help, an attempted suicide by cop as a means to get attention. Despite the postings of some here, I don't expect to be killed for not setting something down when told to. I do expect to get arrested, though.

Quote:
Perhaps. But that doesn't place any blame on the individual officer, nor does it absolve Scott.
No, but it does direct the attention to how such events can and should be handled better. And that will end up costing the tax payers a lot more than it would have cost to have properly trained and equipped officers.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:55 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Fortunately I know that's not really true.
When it works it works fine, and the cops get away with it. They can always shoot any black man for having anything at all in his hands. They will not even get fired.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:56 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Which is when you don't drop it within a couple of seconds of being yelled at by the police.
When you say this like this it is obvious you are saying how you would perfer the world to be. If out was like this then you would not have to admit good and evil do not boil down to skin color and profession.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:58 AM   #273
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
When you say this like this it is obvious you are saying how you would perfer the world to be. If out was like this then you would not have to admit good and evil do not boil down to skin color and profession.
Funny how people yelling at cops that someone is deaf carries no weight in their actions. It is the public who needs to be calm cool and collected in all interactions with the cops. Cops will always panic and freak out and that is just what they do.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:58 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When it works it works fine, and the cops get away with it. They can always shoot any black man for having anything at all in his hands. They will not even get fired.
No officer has been fired for unreasonable force against a black person?

Honest question do you think these comments upset people. ..or do anything?
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:59 AM   #275
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Funny how people yelling at cops that someone is deaf carries no weight in their actions. It is the public who needs to be calm cool and collected in all interactions with the cops. Cops will always panic and freak out and that is just what they do.
Wrong thread my friend , might want to read the titles better.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:04 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Wrong thread my friend , might want to read the titles better.
Police pannicing is relevent to all shootings. It is good someone is allowed to be a bit crazy.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:05 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
No officer has been fired for unreasonable force against a black person?
For shooting a black man with something in his hands no matter what that thing is? I don't know of any. Or are you moving the goalposts?
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:10 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I may well be confused. It is it impossible for someone in a psychotic break to write multiple suicide notes, dial 911 and go outside with a knife?

In other words, what is the basis of your diagnosis that this was not a psychotic break?
You left out the details of the call to the police. They are critical. And I think it's so unlikely that he was having a psychotic break as to be unworth considering.

Quote:
I still don't know that the harm was intentional.
The actions that caused the harm were intentional. And even if not a specifically desired outcome (though I suspect it was), he was at least indifferent to that harm.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:21 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
This was my first thought. Don't police still carry batons? It would seem fairly simple to crack the knife hand while staying out of cut range. Not working with a gun, obviously.


I need some money for a new recording room I want to build at my school. How about we bet, say 3000 dollars. I get a grease "knife" and you get a real baseball bat. If I can grease you in 30 seconds, I win. I'm old, fat and slow, but I'm willing to take the bet. Could be a funny Jref challenge video or something. We really as a forum should do more stuff like this, not enough non political output lately


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Old 21st September 2017, 12:24 PM   #280
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
For shooting a black man with something in his hands no matter what that thing is? I don't know of any. Or are you moving the goalposts?
You could not find a single case of an officer being fired for shooting an unarmed black man? Is that what you are saying?
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