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Old 21st September 2017, 08:32 AM   #41
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US cops are obviously missing reverse gear.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:32 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Given he was deaf and didn't talk, was he swinging it or just holding it while communicating?

But this does seem like basic policing, you see a tard with something in their hands and they are not doing what you tell them to, you shoot. No matter what nearby people are desperately telling you.

At least this time the cop could hit the broad side of a barn.

Unlike the cop who shot the black therapist who was trying to protect his autistic patient, right? http://www.businessinsider.com/an-un...patient-2016-7

Of course the cops came to the house looking for Sanchez's father, so in a way the cop did miss his target by a mile.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
US cops are obviously missing reverse gear.
All they need to do is go into neutral and row with their arms.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:39 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
When you walk towards a cop while swinging a 24" metal pipe it becomes a threat with a weapon.

And a reason to shoot.

Only if those particular cops are ******* pussies of course. But a reason to shoot nonetheless.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:46 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
1. There are walking canes, sticks, and staffs- they differ considerably in length and design. When I (over 6 ft tall) looked up proper sizing of canes I came up with somewhere between 2.3 and 2.5 feet.
Good god, man, how long are your arms?
I'm 5'11" and should have one that's 37".
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:50 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
NYT says he was swinging it.



It matters if it was actually a walking stick and he needed it to walk. The cops would see him using it as a walking aid.

The reason why it's past use it relevant is because it informs us that it wasn't a walking stick... and the police would see that it wasn't a walking stick even though they don't know anything about its past use.


When you walk towards a cop while swinging a 24" metal pipe it becomes a threat with a weapon.
That article doesn't say that. It was in his hand as he moved his hands. Deaf people move their hands a lot. He wasn't swinging it. Nowhere does it say he was in any way threatening anyone. It's not like he was wielding it like a baseball bat while charging officers or something.

"The officer’s commands did not register with Mr. Sanchez. He ambled off the porch toward the officer, waving the pipe in his right hand, according to the police and a witness."

"Mr. Sanchez also used the pipe to communicate with people, moving it around to try to convey what he meant, Mr. Rayos said. It was the same motion Mr. Sanchez made before the police shot him, Mr. Rayos said."

The only people who ran at the officers were the neighbours trying to stop them. I guess they're lucky they and their 12-year-old weren't shot either.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
1. There are walking canes, sticks, and staffs- they differ considerably in length and design. When I (over 6 ft tall) looked up proper sizing of canes I came up with somewhere between 2.3 and 2.5 feet. Therefore 24 inches does not rule out the object in the OP being a walking aid. I would also point out that a lot of people use short "walking sticks" just to steady themselves when climbing stairs or on uneven ground, as might have been the case here, to protect themselves against dog attacks.
It's as if you don't mind your own contradiction. You found that walking aids start at 2.3' and then say they could be 2.0'.

Quote:
2. Even if it was a "pipe" is there any information that Sanchez attempted to attack the police or any one else? Or acted aggressively in any manner? If what we do know proves accurate it is difficult to understand why the police officer used deadly force in this situation, and why they ignored the neighbors' attempts to explain Sanchez's non-reaction to their orders. Maybe there was a reason the police couldn't just back off, assess the situation, and come up with a non-lethal resolution, but we don't know of one yet. I'm willing to wait and find out.
It was a pipe. The article says he ambled towards the cop(s) while swinging it. That is aggressive.

The exact sequence of events isn't prefectly clear from reading the articles. We know there was a Taser, but we don't know of its use or effect. The OP article can even have you thinking that he was Tasered after being shot to death...

Quote:
Barnes fired multiple shots at him and Lindsay fired his Taser
Taser is fired simultaneous with bullets, or after bullets, or before bullets, or what?
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's as if you don't mind your own contradiction. You found that walking aids start at 2.3' and then say they could be 2.0'.
That's only if you think the article was being very precise about the exact length of the object. Now, why would you assume that?
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
That article doesn't say that. It was in his hand as he moved his hands. Deaf people move their hands a lot. He wasn't swinging it. Nowhere does it say he was in any way threatening anyone. It's not like he was wielding it like a baseball bat while charging officers or something.
You are right. I should strictly use the terminology used in the article. He was waving it, not swinging it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:05 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's only if you think the article was being very precise about the exact length of the object. Now, why would you assume that?
It doesn't even matter if the measurement is incorrect because I'm talking about what Giordano said, not the article.

He says that walking aids aren't shorter than 2.3', and then he says that walking aids could be 2.0'. It's a contradiction that is independant of anything mentioned in the article or the article's accuracy.
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Last edited by William Parcher; 21st September 2017 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:08 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are right. I should strictly use the terminology used in the article. He was waving it, not swinging it.
Yes, it's always best to avoid making stuff up.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:10 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It doesn't even matter if the measurement is incorrect because I'm talking about what Giordano said, not the article.

He says that walking aids aren't shorter than 2.3', and then he says that walking aids could be 2.0'. It's a contradiction that is independant of anything mentioned in the article or the article's accuracy.
Bill, first of all, not being able to find one below a certain length doesn't tell you how long or where he looked. There could be shorter ones. Furthermore, if the article is incorrect the stick could be longer and thus the point is that the shorter ones are in the same ballpark.

****, talk about being pedantic.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Fresno Bee
...Mathews said the officers were investigating a reported hit-and-run at around 8:15 p.m. Tuesday. He said a witness told Lt. Matthew Lindsey the address where the vehicle responsible for the hit-and-run had gone, and that Sanchez was on the porch when Lindsey arrived.

He said Sanchez was holding a metal pipe that was approximately two feet (0.6 meters) long and that had a leather loop on one end for wrapping around one's wrist. Lindsey called for backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.

Witnesses could hear the officers giving Sanchez commands, but the officers didn't hear the witnesses yelling that Sanchez couldn't hear them, Mathews said. When he was about 15 feet (4.5 meters) away from the officers, they opened fire — Lindsey with his Taser and Barnes with his gun, apparently simultaneously, Mathews said.

He said he didn't know how many shots were fired, but that it was more than one.

When asked why Barnes used a gun instead of a Taser, Mathews said he didn't know. He said it's possible Barnes wasn't equipped with a Taser. Neither officer had a body camera...
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/article174290306.html
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:29 AM   #54
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Quote:
In the neighborhood, Shields-Davis, just south of downtown Oklahoma City, Mr. Sanchez was known for wandering up and down the streets during the day, even in heavy rain, and running laps in the parking lot of an American Legion post next to his home. He never left home without the pipe, wielding it shoo away stray dogs, Mr. Rayos said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...ting-deaf.html
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:40 AM   #55
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the pipe was also a means to communicate, apparently

"He always carried the pipe with him to shoo away stray dogs and communicate with people, moving it around to convey what he meant, Rayos to the Times. Sanchez made the same motion at the police when he was approached, Rayos added." link
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:14 AM   #56
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I have no problem with this shoot, given that the NYT story is accurate.

I would have shot someone coming at me with a pipe.

If it's not accurate, then I will re-evaluate.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:18 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I have no problem with this shoot, given that the NYT story is accurate.

I would have shot someone coming at me with a pipe.

If it's not accurate, then I will re-evaluate.
Highlighted part is a bit disingenuous. He didn't charge at them.

Would you shoot someone slowly moving in your general direction? If that person wasn't doing anything threatening? And if the neighbours told you he was deaf and couldn't understand you?
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:37 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Highlighted part is a bit disingenuous. He didn't charge at them.

Would you shoot someone slowly moving in your general direction? If that person wasn't doing anything threatening?
Look at you doing what you told me I shouldn't do. You substituted your own word for what was actually said. Coming was said, but you switched it to charge.

"Slowly moving in your general direction" is the same as coming. But the articles say nothing about the speed, or that it wasn't a direct approach. You are inserting your own words (and the mental imagery that they bring) right after telling me not to do it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Look at you doing what you told me I shouldn't do. You substituted your own word for what was actually said. Coming was said, but you switched it to charge.

"Slowly moving in your general direction" is the same as coming. But the articles say nothing about the speed, or that it wasn't a direct approach. You are inserting your own words (and the mental imagery that they bring) right after telling me not to do it.
Actually your own quote uses the term amble, which by definition means slow and casual walk.

Regardless of semantics quibbling I don't think even the worst interpretation of the described events is sufficient to justify deadly force.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:50 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Highlighted part is a bit disingenuous. He didn't charge at them.

Would you shoot someone slowly moving in your general direction? If that person wasn't doing anything threatening? And if the neighbours told you he was deaf and couldn't understand you?
Well, if you are opening up the discussion to lots of possible scenarios, rather than the one the NYT described, then yes, there are some scenarios where I would not shoot a person coming at me with a pipe.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:51 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Look at you doing what you told me I shouldn't do. You substituted your own word for what was actually said. Coming was said, but you switched it to charge.

"Slowly moving in your general direction" is the same as coming. But the articles say nothing about the speed, or that it wasn't a direct approach. You are inserting your own words (and the mental imagery that they bring) right after telling me not to do it.
"... Coming at me with a pipe" seems to imply the victim targeted the officrs with a weapon and some kind of clear intent to do harm. To me at least and I could be wrong.

I was asking for clarification. I didn't say that is what the poster said. IE would they shoot if the person was walking or charging?

"He's coming right at us!" Is used as a joke in South Park(?) to justify shooting.

Again, the only people who have been confirned to be approaching the officers with speed are the neighbours.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Actually your own quote uses the term amble, which by definition means slow and casual walk.

Regardless of semantics quibbling I don't think even the worst interpretation of the described events is sufficient to justify deadly force.
The other officer there must have agreed. Which is why they used a taser. I wonder if that will cause problems for the one who did fire.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:54 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, if you are opening up the discussion to lots of possible scenarios, rather than the one the NYT described, then yes, there are some scenarios where I would not shoot a person coming at me with a pipe.
Good makes me feel safer going to home depot.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:56 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, if you are opening up the discussion to lots of possible scenarios, rather than the one the NYT described, then yes, there are some scenarios where I would not shoot a person coming at me with a pipe.
That seens to be the situation to me. He ambled towards then holding a bar or pipe while the neighbours shouted that he was deaf.

If he was known to the police for violence it might make more sense but nothing so far on his background.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
NYT says he was swinging it.



It matters if it was actually a walking stick and he needed it to walk. The cops would see him using it as a walking aid.

The reason why it's past use it relevant is because it informs us that it wasn't a walking stick... and the police would see that it wasn't a walking stick even though they don't know anything about its past use.


When you walk towards a cop while swinging a 24" metal pipe it becomes a threat with a weapon.
It's a stick, FFS. How have you people got so stuffed up about policing that people with more than half a brain will try to defend police killing someone who is holding a stick? Even if it was a 4 foot long piece of heavy iron bar the man should not have ended up dead. Your policing is screwed up utterly, and christ knows, so is your society, if people like this end up getting killed by the police. Goodness only knows how anyone can defend this.

Your police should get overseas. Go to Europe. Why don't we hear of Belgian or French of German or British police killing people willy-nilly who don't do as they are told? Because they are taught to de-escalate the situation. To not become the target. Who was this guy "threatening"? Yeah, that's right.........only the police, (in their warped minds). Normal police would back off and get him to cool down, and would never have pointed a gun in the first place. If it escalated to violence, he'd have been tasered. For the life of me I have no notion as to why otherwise sane and sensible posters would tolerate, nay defend, the ridiculous killing of civilians in America which the police do in (literally) uncounted numbers day in, day out. It's nauseating.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Good makes me feel safer going to home depot.
I don't think they sell 2 foot pipes with leather wrist straps, but if they do...
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:01 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's a stick, FFS. How have you people got so stuffed up about policing that people with more than half a brain will try to defend police killing someone who is holding a stick? Even if it was a 4 foot long piece of heavy iron bar the man should not have ended up dead. Your policing is screwed up utterly, and christ knows, so is your society, if people like this end up getting killed by the police. Goodness only knows how anyone can defend this.

Your police should get overseas. Go to Europe. Why don't we hear of Belgian or French of German or British police killing people willy-nilly who don't do as they are told? Because they are taught to de-escalate the situation. To not become the target. Who was this guy "threatening"? Yeah, that's right.........only the police, (in their warped minds). Normal police would back off and get him to cool down, and would never have pointed a gun in the first place. If it escalated to violence, he'd have been tasered. For the life of me I have no notion as to why otherwise sane and sensible posters would tolerate, nay defend, the ridiculous killing of civilians in America which the police do in (literally) uncounted numbers day in, day out. It's nauseating.
The USA is not Europe. Stop comparing the two.

I am not waiting to see what the guy with the stick or pipe with the strap handle is going to do when he gets to me. To me, it's a deadly weapon and I can't take the chance of waiting to decide what to do.

If I knew ahead of time that he was deaf and developmentally challenged it would change the way I react.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:02 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I don't think they sell 2 foot pipes with leather wrist straps, but if they do...
Do you know how many runners and joggers I know who carry sticks to fend off dogs? I am sure you would shoot them too.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:06 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I don't think they sell 2 foot pipes with leather wrist straps, but if they do...
I had a billy club in my fishing gear as a kid. About* 2 feet long, solid wood with a nice handle carved into it and a leather wrist strap. good for stunning catfish and gar. Sure am glad you never went fishing with us.


*I could not accurately recall from memory if it was 24" or 28" so I used the word "about". Would that journalist were so cautious.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:09 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I had a billy club in my fishing gear as a kid. About* 2 feet long, solid wood with a nice handle carved into it and a leather wrist strap. good for stunning catfish and gar. Sure am glad you never went fishing with us.


*I could not accurately recall from memory if it was 24" or 28" so I used the word "about". Would that journalist were so cautious.
And hers is a website advocating such clubs for joggers.

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/How-to-P...ing-or-Jogging

"4. Carry a walking stick or cane.

People alone without any defense are most vulnerable to a dog attack, especially elderly victims. Carry a walking stick or cane with you when you go on walks. It's not proven that this technique is successful because I have heard of incidents where witnesses come to the defense of a victim with a baseball bat or stick and the dog just doesn't let go.

However, it gives that immediate block and few seconds in between what could be a devastating first bite."

Now you have to worry about not being able to defend youself against dogs or being killed by cops. Seeing someone running with a club is a death sentence from the police after all.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:13 PM   #71
jnelso99
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now you have to worry about not being able to defend youself against dogs or being killed by cops. Seeing someone running with a club is a death sentence from the police after all.
And apparently from fellow citizens as well.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:15 PM   #72
MikeG
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The USA is not Europe. Stop comparing the two........
No. No, I won't, and neither should you. You should be demanding that your police behave differently. You shouldn't be tolerating this carnage, let alone excusing it. And the excuse of "we're not you" (in terms) is bollocks.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:17 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Highlighted part is a bit disingenuous. He didn't charge at them.

Would you shoot someone slowly moving in your general direction? If that person wasn't doing anything threatening? And if the neighbours told you he was deaf and couldn't understand you?
I'd assume they were trying to close the distance in such a way that my action would be delayed enough they could effectively use the pipe. Screaming " you are gonna die mother ****ers " isn't a good strategy.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:17 PM   #74
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I had a billy club in my fishing gear as a kid. About* 2 feet long, solid wood with a nice handle carved into it and a leather wrist strap. good for stunning catfish and gar. Sure am glad you never went fishing with us.


*I could not accurately recall from memory if it was 24" or 28" so I used the word "about". Would that journalist were so cautious.
It's known as a "priest" here. Linky
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Last edited by MikeG; 21st September 2017 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:17 PM   #75
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"Pipe Sanchez was holding was designed to be a weapon", Oklahoma City Police Chief Bill Citty said.

Citty: "Only one Taser prong hit Sanchez. Two must make contact to be effective."


http://newsok.com/recap-oklahoma-cit...rticle/5564988
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:18 PM   #76
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if reaching for a firearm is your first line of action, then you should never be permitted to own one.
Period.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:18 PM   #77
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Good makes me feel safer going to home depot.
You often swing pipes at folks there?
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:18 PM   #78
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
"... Coming at me with a pipe" seems to imply the victim targeted the officrs with a weapon and some kind of clear intent to do harm. To me at least and I could be wrong.

I was asking for clarification. I didn't say that is what the poster said. IE would they shoot if the person was walking or charging?

"He's coming right at us!" Is used as a joke in South Park(?) to justify shooting.
Video posted above
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:19 PM   #79
DreamingNaiad
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The USA is not Europe. Stop comparing the two.

I am not waiting to see what the guy with the stick or pipe with the strap handle is going to do when he gets to me. To me, it's a deadly weapon and I can't take the chance of waiting to decide what to do.

If I knew ahead of time that he was deaf and developmentally challenged it would change the way I react.
There is no difference between someone holding a pipe in America or Europe. If there is please explain what it is.

A shoe can be a deadly weapon. A pen. A fist. That is a pretty low bar you've set for killing people.

And for the umpteenth time the neighbours told the police he was deaf. Which it says in the articles. The ones you say shows it was a good shoot. So which is it? Shooting a deaf man is ok or not? Because that is condradictory.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:20 PM   #80
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I had a billy club in my fishing gear as a kid. About* 2 feet long, solid wood with a nice handle carved into it and a leather wrist strap. good for stunning catfish and gar. Sure am glad you never went fishing with us.


*I could not accurately recall from memory if it was 24" or 28" so I used the word "about". Would that journalist were so cautious.
Around here "fish wackers" are small and often brightly colored to avoid looking like a weapon. Almost as if someone understands they could be viewed as a weapon.
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