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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:54 AM   #241
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I hope, for your sake, that it is brightly colored.

If it isn't you might want to think twice about using it to walk anywhere outside your house.
It's OK, I'm in Britain and I'm not Brazilian or an electrician.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:57 AM   #242
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Chief Citty will be meeting with deaf and speech impaired advocates. IMO, he should also meet with advocates for the mentally handicapped because IMO that was the factor causing Sanchez to not understand that he needed to drop the pipe.

This incident is very similar to another one last year involving a deaf and mute man who was killed by a cop. That man also had mental handicap. It even has a hit-and-run collision preceding it. We have a thread: Deaf Mute shot by Dumb cop.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:03 AM   #243
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A very interesting detail that has been left out of the reporting is how far the victim was from the LEOs when he was shot? If he "ambled down the porch" as told by witnesses he better not be more than say 2 feet away...
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:08 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I assume there is something in the US police training that stops them backing off. Even firing the Taser seemed unnecessary. Just back off, call for support, talk him down. A couple more minutes and the neighbours who knew him would have defused things.

Yes that would be logical.

What you aren't understanding is that these particular cops were ****** pussies. And they have been overcompensating for that almost their entire lives. Add to that a power trip mixed with an ego trip and you have a deadly salad.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:11 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Dave is in the UK........
Where police typically fire fewer than a dozen or two rounds a year. In total. Not each, but all of them added up across the whole country. In 2016, it was 7 weapon discharges all year, the highest total since 2009, in a total of nearly 12,500 incidents in which armed police were called out.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:12 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
The police department spokesman claimed they weren't wearing body cams.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/21/us/pol...rnd/index.html
My apologies, I had somehow misremembered that.

Makes you wonder what they did spend money on. M16s? Armored cars?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:12 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
A very interesting detail that has been left out of the reporting is how far the victim was from the LEOs when he was shot? If he "ambled down the porch" as told by witnesses he better not be more than say 2 feet away...
It hasn't been left out. He was approximately 15' away from officers when shot.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:13 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It hasn't been left out. He was approximately 15' away from officers when shot.
Even my telescopic walking stick doesn't extend that far.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:17 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Chief Citty will be meeting with deaf and speech impaired advocates. IMO, he should also meet with advocates for the mentally handicapped because IMO that was the factor causing Sanchez to not understand that he needed to drop the pipe.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the murdered man was given much time to realize anything.

I agree that the Chief needs to meet with some mentally handicapped advocates, but all signs indicate that he needs them for his staff.

Quote:

This incident is very similar to another one last year involving a deaf and mute man who was killed by a cop. That man also had mental handicap. It even has a hit-and-run collision preceding it. We have a thread: Deaf Mute shot by Dumb cop.
You think that incident was very similar?

You mean, aside from the fact that the guy who got shot had been driving the car the cops were trying to stop for miles? And exited the vehicle in full view of the cops who had been chasing him?

"Cause that's "very similar" to someone sitting on the porch of their own home not doing anything at all.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:20 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Where police typically fire fewer than a dozen or two rounds a year. In total. Not each, but all of them added up across the whole country. In 2016, it was 7 weapon discharges all year, the highest total since 2009, in a total of nearly 12,500 incidents in which armed police were called out.
And where, magically, police manage to keep law and order despite not routinely carrying fire arms, only specialized units do. I remember the times that Dutch cops didn't either and I don't think there's any indication the change increased my or their safety either.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:35 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This incident is very similar to another one last year involving a deaf and mute man who was killed by a cop. That man also had mental handicap. It even has a hit-and-run collision preceding it. We have a thread: Deaf Mute shot by Dumb cop.
I don't see in that thread (and I just reread it) any indication that that man was mentally handicapped.

But it does highlight the conundrum deaf people find themselves in in interacting with American police officers.

The police officer shouts some instructions what to do at you. And I say shout, because in all the videos I've seen the officers shout such that it's nearly incomprehensible for me as listener.

As a deaf person you don't understand what the officer is saying, so you can't follow up the instructions either. And when you don't do that within ten seconds, the officer shoots you for not complying with his orders.

When you try to sign in ASL that you're deaf, the officer thinks your waving with your hands is threatening, so he shoots you.

And when you try to get a pen and pad of paper out of your pocket, the officer thinks you're drawing a gun and shoots you.

Really, either way you lose.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:38 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I don't see in that thread (and I just reread it) any indication that that man was mentally handicapped.

But it does highlight the conundrum deaf people find themselves in in interacting with American police officers.

The police officer shouts some instructions what to do at you. And I say shout, because in all the videos I've seen the officers shout such that it's nearly incomprehensible for me as listener.

As a deaf person you don't understand what the officer is saying, so you can't follow up the instructions either. And when you don't do that within ten seconds, the officer shoots you for not complying with his orders.

When you try to sign in ASL that you're deaf, the officer thinks your waving with your hands is threatening, so he shoots you.

And when you try to get a pen and pad of paper out of your pocket, the officer thinks you're drawing a gun and shoots you.

Really, either way you lose.

Just like the man said upthread.

Deaf people shouldn't be allowed out on their porch without caretakers.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:49 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It hasn't been left out. He was approximately 15' away from officers when shot.
Thank you I missed that somehow.

It in no way makes this better though.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:11 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the murdered man was given much time to realize anything.
One ought to realize that walking towards a cop while waving a pipe is not a good idea and will not be perceived as a cool thing by that cop. Myself, I realize that now and always and I've never had such an interaction with cops. I don't need an appropriate amount of time to come to that realization, as you suggest.


Quote:
You think that incident was very similar?

You mean, aside from the fact that the guy who got shot had been driving the car the cops were trying to stop for miles? And exited the vehicle in full view of the cops who had been chasing him?

"Cause that's "very similar" to someone sitting on the porch of their own home not doing anything at all.
The incidents are amazingly similar. A deaf mute with mental handicap does not perceive the necessity to halt and stop advancing towards an officer when there are visual and situational indications that halting is necessary to prevent possible harm to oneself. IMO, it is the mental handicap that deprives them of the realization that the situation is potentially dangerous and urgent.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:14 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I don't see in that thread (and I just reread it) any indication that that man was mentally handicapped.
He was. It's either in a linked article or a later article that was not linked. I read it and it made sense given his behavior. His actions were not simply of a man who was deaf and mute but rather of one who has mental handicap.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:21 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Even my telescopic walking stick doesn't extend that far.

Dave
It relates to the time it takes an attacker to reach you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:22 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Good luck with that.

For some reason we don't seem able to even get police departments to comply with federally mandated reporting requirements for how many people they shoot.

Gonna be kinda hard to accumulate data for a study about anything at all, much less who shoots the most compared to their training. (Which would be a whole 'nother set of data we don't have.)
Some study here

https://theconversation.com/why-do-a...ean-cops-49696

which shows that the smaller the force, the less training it gets and the more likely it is to shoot.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:27 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He was. It's either in a linked article or a later article that was not linked. I read it and it made sense given his behavior. His actions were not simply of a man who was deaf and mute but rather of one who has mental handicap.
I think the handicap may be why he did not indicate that he was deaf, and other people had to try to yell at the cops to let them know.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:30 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It relates to the time it takes an attacker to reach you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
That applies to a holstered handgun vs a knife-wielding attacker. If your gun is pointed at someone and they rush you this doesn't really apply.

Or don't rush you, as in this case.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:34 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think the handicap may be why he did not indicate that he was deaf, and other people had to try to yell at the cops to let them know.
Six people told the cops he was deaf. If they didn't listen to them why would they have listened to him?

And how do you indicate you are deaf?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:34 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And where, magically, police manage to keep law and order despite not routinely carrying fire arms, only specialized units do. I remember the times that Dutch cops didn't either and I don't think there's any indication the change increased my or their safety either.
In Northern Ireland, the police do routinely carry firearms. Between 01/June/ 2012 and 12/March/2015, the PSNI shot someone on only one occasion, when two shots were fired at an "armed Assailant", who was injured.

https://www.psni.police.uk/globalass..._by_police.pdf

So, magically in the UK, even when routinely armed, the police hardly ever shoot at anyone.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:34 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He was. It's either in a linked article or a later article that was not linked. I read it and it made sense given his behavior. His actions were not simply of a man who was deaf and mute but rather of one who has mental handicap.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/new...129581769.html:
Quote:
Prosecutors said Harris had a history of mental illness and had been in a psychiatric hospital in Florida for seven years. In 2015, after Harris was arrested in Kansas for fleeing a police traffic stop, a psychological assessment said Harris regularly “perceives something telling him to stab himself or someone else,” the report states.
That is, however, something quit different from Sanchez, the subject of this thread, who is said to have developmental disabilities.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:36 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
That applies to a holstered handgun vs a knife-wielding attacker. If your gun is pointed at someone and they rush you this doesn't really apply.

Or don't rush you, as in this case.
And presumably the police had their own 'pipes' (batons)? Shoot the guy rather than risk catching a blow from a member of the public?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:36 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
That applies to a holstered handgun vs a knife-wielding attacker. If your gun is pointed at someone and they rush you this doesn't really apply.

Or don't rush you, as in this case.
It applies to all attacks in general. The weapon of the attacker does not matter, unless it's a firearm.

You still have to decide if you should shoot or not.

You have about 1 second to decide with a suspect at 15 feet, I think.

The firing of the taser, "pop sound" could be what caused the officer with the gun to also fire.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:38 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Six people told the cops he was deaf. If they didn't listen to them why would they have listened to him?

And how do you indicate you are deaf?
It's pretty likely that the cops could not hear what anyone was yelling at them. That is fairly typical in a stressful situation.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-dea...he-she-is-deaf
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:40 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
One ought to realize that walking towards a cop while waving a pipe is not a good idea and will not be perceived as a cool thing by that cop. ......
The issue is that in the USA, that act has a far higher risk of resulting in the cop killing the person. Elsewhere else, it almost certainly results in a non fatal arrest.

We know why. I would like to know if Americans are happy with their way over everyone else.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:44 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
One ought to realize that walking towards a cop while waving a pipe is not a good idea and will not be perceived as a cool thing by that cop.
Prove it was a pipe. Prove he was waving it. Prove he knew they were police.

And even if you happen to be right about all three of the above, "not being cool" in the eyes of a policeman is no reason.....absolutely no reason at all........to end up getting killed by that policeman. As Nessie asks, are you and your countrymen convinced that this general situation (police killing the populace in huge numbers with virtually no come-back) is the best way of being policed? Because to outsiders, it looks like you are being occupied by a brutal armed invader.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:47 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I don't see in that thread (and I just reread it) any indication that that man was mentally handicapped.

But it does highlight the conundrum deaf people find themselves in in interacting with American police officers.

The police officer shouts some instructions what to do at you. And I say shout, because in all the videos I've seen the officers shout such that it's nearly incomprehensible for me as listener.

As a deaf person you don't understand what the officer is saying, so you can't follow up the instructions either. And when you don't do that within ten seconds, the officer shoots you for not complying with his orders.

When you try to sign in ASL that you're deaf, the officer thinks your waving with your hands is threatening, so he shoots you.

And when you try to get a pen and pad of paper out of your pocket, the officer thinks you're drawing a gun and shoots you.

Really, either way you lose.
Unless you drop what you have and go prone. It's not complex, and worst case scenario you look a bit silly.

Personally is rather look silly than die, but maybe I'm just unique in that regard.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:49 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The issue is that in the USA, that act has a far higher risk of resulting in the cop killing the person. Elsewhere else, it almost certainly results in a non fatal arrest.

We know why. I would like to know if Americans are happy with their way over everyone else.
Why should the cop engage in a fight with a man with a metal club* and risk serious injury or death trying to subdue him?

* or any similar item.

I wouldn't, and I don't expect my local cops to, either.

I do have the option of running away, though.

The taser is obviously one imperfect option.

Rubber or beanbag rounds are another imperfect option. I don't think they are used much anymore, though.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:50 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The issue is that in the USA, that act has a far higher risk of resulting in the cop killing the person. Elsewhere else, it almost certainly results in a non fatal arrest.

We know why. I would like to know if Americans are happy with their way over everyone else.
I put myself in their situation. If I had a gun and believed someone was it to seriously harm me, what would I do?

I'd the person is unarmed I'd accept waiting till the person threw a blow, but once a weapon is in the mix I wouldn't be taking any chances.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:56 AM   #271
DreamingNaiad
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's pretty likely that the cops could not hear what anyone was yelling at them. That is fairly typical in a stressful situation.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-dea...he-she-is-deaf
Seriously? They couldn't hear 6 people running up to them shouting and you think they will understand sign language?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:00 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Unless you drop what you have and go prone. It's not complex, and worst case scenario you look a bit silly.

Personally is rather look silly than die, but maybe I'm just unique in that regard.
And with "go prone", you mean: go lie flat on the ground, limbs stretched out. And don't lift up a single hand, because then you still get shot.

Personally, I think that's dehumanizing, and even the Gestapo was not so demeaning of the people it interacting with in public. And the SS let the people it executed still stand or sit on their knees.

What your suggestion amounts to is a fascist police state.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:02 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Why should the cop engage in a fight with a man with a metal club* and risk serious injury or death trying to subdue him?

* or any similar item.

I wouldn't, and I don't expect my local cops to, either.

I do have the option of running away, though.

The taser is obviously one imperfect option.

Rubber or beanbag rounds are another imperfect option. I don't think they are used much anymore, though.
No one tried to engage cops in a fight. Why does that BS keep coming up?

What kind of person thinks seeing someone walk towards them is a fight or an attack?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:04 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And how do we mitigate this? If you don't understand, drop anything you are holding, and go prone. There is no situation in which this isn't a good option.

Unless you value your ego more than your life.
Make sure that all people hired to be cops are trained to remain calm and rational in such circumstances. Maybe even calmer and more rational that the person they are engaged with.

For some reason Americans posting here just hate to be reminded that other western countries have police forces that are capable of defusing such situations without resorting to shooting. American cops could learn a lot if they wanted to.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:09 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
......For some reason Americans posting here just hate to be reminded that other western countries have police forces that are capable of defusing such situations without resorting to shooting.
Exactly.

Quote:
American cops could learn a lot if they wanted to.
These are the key words. It doesn't appear that they want to do any such thing, and their cheerleaders, here and in the general public, don't seem to understand that there is a better way. A much better way.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:11 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I put myself in their situation. If I had a gun and believed someone was it to seriously harm me, what would I do?

I'd the person is unarmed I'd accept waiting till the person threw a blow, but once a weapon is in the mix I wouldn't be taking any chances.
The problem is that no one made any aggressive move that could indicate they wanted to do harm.

And the only difference between this situation in Europe or the USA is that in Europe this guy would most likely still be alive. Which means the US cops are more violent than the European ones.

Why are people defending that? Would you rather fewer people died?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:16 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Why should the cop engage in a fight with a man with a metal club* and risk serious injury or death trying to subdue him?

* or any similar item.

I wouldn't, and I don't expect my local cops to, either.

I do have the option of running away, though.

The taser is obviously one imperfect option.

Rubber or beanbag rounds are another imperfect option. I don't think they are used much anymore, though.
Meanwhile, in the rest of the western world, cops (and the public) understand that they are the ones who have chosen to take such risks and such risks are necessary to preserve life, all lives and make arrests, so as to bring criminals to justice.

To assist them and minimise the risk the cops are properly trained in a variety of techniques. One of them is de-escalation using verbal techniques and body language. If they face an actual attack, there is CS spray, baton and unarmed means of defending oneself.

Why do not expect your police to be properly trained and to use non fatal techniques?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:18 AM   #278
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
No one tried to engage cops in a fight. Why does that BS keep coming up?

What kind of person thinks seeing someone walk towards them is a fight or an attack?
I wish you'd stop that. You keep reinterpreting events.

If the suspect merely walked towards the officers, then the officer who fired his gun is a murderer, full stop.

We seem to have left something out, though.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:19 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
No one tried to engage cops in a fight. Why does that BS keep coming up?

What kind of person thinks seeing someone walk towards them is a fight or an attack?
Wannabe tough guys, in a uniform, with a gun, who are in reality totally unprepared to deal with any risk situation at all.

There is clearly also a recruitment issue, as it appears the totally wrong sort of person is attracted to and gets to be, a police officer in the USA.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 11:19 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Meanwhile, in the rest of the western world, cops (and the public) understand that they are the ones who have chosen to take such risks and such risks are necessary to preserve life, all lives and make arrests, so as to bring criminals to justice.

To assist them and minimise the risk the cops are properly trained in a variety of techniques. One of them is de-escalation using verbal techniques and body language. If they face an actual attack, there is CS spray, baton and unarmed means of defending oneself.

Why do not expect your police to be properly trained and to use non fatal techniques?
I also don't understand why fire fighters often risk their lives merely to save easily replaceable property. I wish they wouldn't.

EDIT: Not responsive or relevant.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 22nd September 2017 at 12:07 PM.
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