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Old 21st September 2017, 01:08 PM   #1
rdwight
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‘Straight Black Men Are The White People Of Black People’

‘Straight Black Men Are The White People Of Black People’

Quote:
[Snip]..when black women share that we pose the same existential and literal danger to them that whiteness does to us; and when black women ask us to give them the benefit of the doubt about street harassment and sexual assault and other forms of harassment and violence we might not personally witness; and when black women tell us that allowing our cousins and brothers and co-workers and ****** to use misogynistic language propagates that culture of danger; and when black women admit how scary it can be to get followed and approached by a man while waiting for a bus or walking home from work; and when black women articulate how hurtful it is for our reactions to domestic abuse and their rapes and murders to be “what women need to do differently to prevent this from happening to them” instead of “what we (men) need to do differently to prevent us from doing this to them”, their words are met with resistance and outright pushback.
After demanding from white people that we’re listened to and believed and that our livelihoods are considered, our ears shut off and hearts shut down when black women ask the same of us.


I noticed this article recently and saw a bit of backlash against it's premise. While it's title is a bit over the top, I found the premise and the backlash/defense against it's positions interesting.

It very much mirrors the perceived cop outs by 'white people' in regards to privilege, although with some minor differences. To me, generally, white privilege denial stems from an individuals circumstances and experiences, while the rebuttals I've read use race wide data to refute any power structure allowing black men to exert their male privilege over black women.

By and large though, what I've pulled most from it is individuals inability to really view the plight of others through their eyes. The idea of privilege seems to always bring about 'what-aboutism's' as an immediate defense mechanism against any possible lowering of one's own success and accomplishments. It's interesting to view.

Anyhow, just my take. Found it interesting and a good push for introspection in regards to these things. How about you guys.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:15 PM   #2
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That headline blew my mind, lol.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:51 PM   #3
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‘Gay Black Men Are The Black People of White Grandmother Black People’
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:00 PM   #4
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Yeah, it's getting hard to rank the victims (who are oppressors themselves of the higher-ranked victims). I mean you can start out with, say a trans, lesbian, black woman with a Hispanic surname. Obviously trumps everybody in victimhood. But who's next? Is it a trans, lesbian black woman with a non-Hispanic surname? Or is it a trans, straight black woman with a Hispanic surname.

Fortunately, as this fellow has discovered, it is relatively simple to figure out that as a straight black man he ranks below every other black on the victimhood chart, and thus is their oppressor. He ranks below any black transgendered. He ranks below any gay black. And he ranks below any black woman. Ergo he is less of a victim than all other blacks, and thus oppresses them.

I have an even easier time of it. As a straight, white, cis-male, I am the white people of everybody.

Sorry!
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Old 21st September 2017, 04:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yeah, it's getting hard to rank the victims (who are oppressors themselves of the higher-ranked victims). I mean you can start out with, say a trans, lesbian, black woman with a Hispanic surname. Obviously trumps everybody in victimhood. But who's next? Is it a trans, lesbian black woman with a non-Hispanic surname? Or is it a trans, straight black woman with a Hispanic surname.

Fortunately, as this fellow has discovered, it is relatively simple to figure out that as a straight black man he ranks below every other black on the victimhood chart, and thus is their oppressor. He ranks below any black transgendered. He ranks below any gay black. And he ranks below any black woman. Ergo he is less of a victim than all other blacks, and thus oppresses them.

I have an even easier time of it. As a straight, white, cis-male, I am the white people of everybody.
You might even say that it's a privilege.
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Old 21st September 2017, 05:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You might even say that it's a privilege.
Really? You might even say that? Would you please explain exactly what that privilege is? I'll wait here.
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Old 21st September 2017, 06:00 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You might even say that it's a privilege.
Yeah. No-one's ever thought of that before.
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Old 21st September 2017, 06:47 PM   #8
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It's an argument I've heard before, as a way to shake the black misogynists out of their...well, misogyny.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:07 PM   #9
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Politically incorrect to say it, but the only thing more hateful than the implication in the title is the content of the article.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:52 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Politically incorrect to say it, but the only thing more hateful than the implication in the title is the content of the article.
"Hateful"? How so? Please elaborate.

I see a discussion that needs to be had in the black communities. (It applies, actually, in a lot of minority communities but the topic of the article is "straight black males", so we can stick with that.)

That doesn't mean we can't beat it death, as is our wont, but the collective opinion of a lot of not-movers and not-shakers isn't going to do **** all. Sorta like you and me discussing black-on-black crime, one of the favorite troglodyte topics whenever gun control comes up. It's a topic that needs black leaders to step up and address. And just like the preponderance of disappearing daddies. Again, something that needs to be addressed by blacks and black icons and leaders.

And lest anyone think I'm going all Doctor Ben (nee Uncle Ben) on you, the surprise twist to this post is that these things are being addressed by the black community. They just don't get the headlines that "Three Thugs on Rampage At Quikky Mart" gets.
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
"Hateful"? How so? Please elaborate.

I see a discussion that needs to be had in the black communities. (It applies, actually, in a lot of minority communities but the topic of the article is "straight black males", so we can stick with that.)

That doesn't mean we can't beat it death, as is our wont, but the collective opinion of a lot of not-movers and not-shakers isn't going to do **** all. Sorta like you and me discussing black-on-black crime, one of the favorite troglodyte topics whenever gun control comes up. It's a topic that needs black leaders to step up and address. And just like the preponderance of disappearing daddies. Again, something that needs to be addressed by blacks and black icons and leaders.

And lest anyone think I'm going all Doctor Ben (nee Uncle Ben) on you, the surprise twist to this post is that these things are being addressed by the black community. They just don't get the headlines that "Three Thugs on Rampage At Quikky Mart" gets.
Your points are strong. I'm sure my argument is well-worn on the forum, but...the White People of Black People??? That's a vile expression, fairly oozing with stereotypical racial hatred. To keep this as short as possible, the endgame is that we're not going to have any measurable level of (much needed) racial healing if undercurrent thought like that goes unchallenged. Try to use the Black People of White People in a PC sentence. Level the playing field and get realistic about it.

The article goes on further to describe how a lone black person walks into an all-white bar and feels every eye upon him. Boo-freaking-hoo. I welcome the author to New Jersey, where we can tour some black-only establishments and the lone whitey would pray to god to be only stared at. Again, you want healing? Get realistic. You want to talk about White Privilege? Okay, talk about Black Holding-Yourself-Back, too.

And the part that eats at me the most is where you and I smile empathetically and say 'pity the poor black, and his woes. Our fault, ya know'.
It can't go on. Resentments on both sides will only get worse. We both need, as you say, to get real with each other about a lot of issues. Using White People as a disparaging term is one of many opportunities to start.

[/privileged white cat rant]

ETA: Tl;dr- hold everyone to the same standard. No more accepting subtextual jive in the OP title
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Your points are strong. I'm sure my argument is well-worn on the forum, but...the White People of Black People??? That's a vile expression, fairly oozing with stereotypical racial hatred. To keep this as short as possible, the endgame is that we're not going to have any measurable level of (much needed) racial healing if undercurrent thought like that goes unchallenged. Try to use the Black People of White People in a PC sentence. Level the playing field and get realistic about it.
Ya know, sometimes stereotypes and cliches are stereotypes and cliches because they accurately reflect a condition.

Are you saying that you're unaware that black people feel that white people are and have been their oppressors? Or are you saying "Golly gee, Miss Brooks, wouldn't it be swell if we all got along better"?

Racial healing isn't necessary. It's never going to heal without leaving a big ol' noticeable scar, anyway. What is needed is education.

Quote:
The article goes on further to describe how a lone black person walks into an all-white bar and feels every eye upon him. Boo-freaking-hoo. I welcome the author to New Jersey, where we can tour some black-only establishments and the lone whitey would pray to god to be only stared at. Again, you want healing? Get realistic. You want to talk about White Privilege? Okay, talk about Black Holding-Yourself-Back, too.
The old standby tu hom (a mixture of tu quoque and ad hom) defense. Do you think the author of that piece isn't aware that the misogynists he's addressing as a problem probably carry other baggage. If he wrote an article on stamping out pickpocketing would you assume he's in favor of driveby shootings. He's addressing an issue, a single issue.

Quote:
And the part that eats at me the most is where you and I smile empathetically and say 'pity the poor black, and his woes. Our fault, ya know'.
It can't go on. Resentments on both sides will only get worse. We both need, as you say, to get real with each other about a lot of issues. Using White People as a disparaging term is one of many opportunities to start.

[/privileged white cat rant]

ETA: Tl;dr- hold everyone to the same standard. No more accepting subtextual jive in the OP title
First, you and I do not both smile and say anything remotely similar on this topic. The article doesn't concern whitey. It's for black men to read and hopefully understand. You taking umbrage on behalf of the white race is of zero interest to them.

The sub-textual jive is from the title of the article being cited. It's also in the text of the article. Where the hell do you see "sub-text". I believe we're reading two different articles. Try throwing away your hiliter and reading all the words, not just the ones you want to react to.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:57 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
"Hateful"? How so? Please elaborate.

I see a discussion that needs to be had in the black communities. (It applies, actually, in a lot of minority communities but the topic of the article is "straight black males", so we can stick with that.)

That doesn't mean we can't beat it death, as is our wont, but the collective opinion of a lot of not-movers and not-shakers isn't going to do **** all. Sorta like you and me discussing black-on-black crime, one of the favorite troglodyte topics whenever gun control comes up. It's a topic that needs black leaders to step up and address. And just like the preponderance of disappearing daddies. Again, something that needs to be addressed by blacks and black icons and leaders.

And lest anyone think I'm going all Doctor Ben (nee Uncle Ben) on you, the surprise twist to this post is that these things are being addressed by the black community. They just don't get the headlines that "Three Thugs on Rampage At Quikky Mart" gets.
Yep. People like Al Sharpton constantly talks about "gun violence" (and isn't afraid to say the same when white kids are shot, despite what people say), and group like Black Lives Matter are also constantly talking about nonviolence and get called "a terrorist group" for their efforts. Having said that, I've said before that there are things governments can do (or in some cases, stop doing) to help, which I've discussed in other threads.

But the relative lack of attention giving to black women (and black LGBTs) is an issue that doesn't get discussed so often. This is one way of addressing it via analogy, and I actually remember when Rodimus Prime tweeted it (I'm a fan of his podcast "The Black Guy who Tips" - a name he occasionally says he wouldn't pick today). And people bitched at him for months. But he and his wife are very passionate about abuse against women and LGBTs (I've heard him literally crying over the subject before.

As for the argument that it's somehow vile - um, we just had a rally of gun-toting white nationalists, and the police shrugged. Philando Castile was killed by a cop for just *saying* "gun", and then reaching for his wallet. Levar Jones was shot and he didn't even say "gun", just reaching for his wallet after a cop asked him to do it. There's *clearly* white privilege, and that's not an attack on white people, but a call for other groups to be treated the same way they are. Saying "straight white men are the white people of black communities" is a call for other black people to be listened to, not an attack on black men.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:48 AM   #14
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BTW, Jemele Hill, who merely retweeted the article, is getting attacked more then Damon Young, who wrote it. Wouldn't be shocked to see trash like Tariq Nasheed getting in on the act. As always, the replies prove the point to be true.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's an argument I've heard before, as a way to shake the black misogynists out of their...well, misogyny.
"White people" is a bit of an insult, then? Sounds racist.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:04 AM   #16
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The white man's burden. I don't know how I even get out of bed in the morning with all of this privilege weighing me down. I need to go and find some minorities to oppress.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:19 AM   #17
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A primer in the hierarchy of blackness:

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I AGREE
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"White people" is a bit of an insult, then? Sounds racist.
It kind of is, and that's not ideal, but few things are.
I suppose this terminology is useful though.
By calling straight black men who discriminate against women and gays in their community 'the white people of black people', it immediately hits home that their attitude towards (sub)minorities in their own communities makes those people feel the same way that (some) white people can make black people feel by being (consciously or subconsciously) racist, dismissive or unaware of the relative 'privilege' of their own group.


It's an appeal to emotion, but it was meant to be one.

ETA: And no, that does not mean that I don't think the comparison is racist, or that I think 'reverse' racism is OK, or that we should continue to stereotype groups of people if it helps us make a point.
But I do think that people who only take away 'that's mean to white people' from this are missing the point.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:28 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"White people" is a bit of an insult, then? Sounds racist.
Nothing racist about fact - and fact is, it *is* annoying when white people dismiss the problem of racism in the US, it's also annoying when straight black men dismiss the claims of violence against black women, and violence against black trans folk gets almost no notice in many areas. The fact is, too many of these dudes *do* beat, rape, or street harass women, just like Trump absolutely *is* a white supremacist and a threat to many people. The article, and the analogy, is pretty spot on. I actually thought the tweet was brilliant when @rodimusprime ...uh...tweeted it?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:34 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Nothing racist about fact - and fact is, it *is* annoying when white people dismiss the problem of racism in the US, it's also annoying when straight black men dismiss the claims of violence against black women, and violence against black trans folk gets almost no notice in many areas. The fact is, too many of these dudes *do* beat, rape, or street harass women, just like Trump absolutely *is* a white supremacist and a threat to many people. The article, and the analogy, is pretty spot on. I actually thought the tweet was brilliant when @rodimusprime ...uh...tweeted it?
It's annoying when all racism is dismissed, including racism against white people. We just don't see as much of an uproar when it's a black guy waxing nonsensical about the white man.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Nothing racist about fact - and fact is, it *is* annoying when white people dismiss the problem of racism in the US, it's also annoying when straight black men dismiss the claims of violence against black women, and violence against black trans folk gets almost no notice in many areas.
It's annoying when people dismiss claims of violence out of hand. Why use "white people" as an insult? "Facts" have nothing to do with that. It's racist, plain and simple.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:37 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
But I do think that people who only take away 'that's mean to white people' from this are missing the point.
I don't care about the point. I care that white people are treated as the enemy. That's the sort of attitute that just stokes the fires of racial hatred.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Nothing racist about fact - and fact is, it *is* annoying when white people dismiss the problem of racism in the US
FTFY

Quote:
it's also annoying when straight black men dismiss the claims of violence against black women, and violence against black trans folk gets almost no notice in many areas. The fact is, too many of these dudes *do* beat, rape, or street harass women, just like Trump absolutely *is* a white supremacist and a threat to many people. The article, and the analogy, is pretty spot on. I actually thought the tweet was brilliant when @rodimusprime ...uh...tweeted it?
...but some, I assume, are good people.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:08 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's annoying when people dismiss claims of violence out of hand. Why use "white people" as an insult? "Facts" have nothing to do with that. It's racist, plain and simple.
It's mostly white people who dismiss claims of police violence or harassment of against black men (eg. - many, many threads on this board). It's mostly black men who I've seen harassing black women, bashing "queers", or defending or dismissing violence against black women (see - Twitter, the aforementioned Tariq Nasheed). No, it's not all white people - but it's also annoying when someone rushes in to defend *themselves*, when it's not a charge *about* them (eg. Well, you, now, although I'm not actually annoyed now - and again, black men on Twitter).

Because it's a distraction from the actual issue at hand - and people's lives are literally at risk. The point is that straight black men harming, ignoring, or distracting from the very real dangers faced by black women and girls, and black LGBT folks, is a very good analog to white people who do this to straight black men.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:12 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's mostly white people who dismiss claims of police violence or harassment of against black men (eg. - many, many threads on this board). It's mostly black men who I've seen harassing black women, bashing "queers", or defending or dismissing violence against black women (see - Twitter, the aforementioned Tariq Nasheed). No, it's not all white people - but it's also annoying when someone rushes in to defend *themselves*, when it's not a charge *about* them (eg. Well, you, now, although I'm not actually annoyed now - and again, black men on Twitter).

Because it's a distraction from the actual issue at hand - and people's lives are literally at risk. The point is that straight black men harming, ignoring, or distracting from the very real dangers faced by black women and girls, and black LGBT folks, is a very good analog to white people who do this to straight black men.
When you're basing your opinions on what you see on this forum, it's probably time to get offline for an hour.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's mostly white people who dismiss claims of police violence or harassment of against black men (eg. - many, many threads on this board).
I'm pretty sure you can't support that claim, but even if it were true, that's no excuse to insult white people as a whole, including those who don't dismiss the claim or who have never participated in any sort of oppression whatsoever.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:20 AM   #27
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A person who shares immutable qualities with someone who behaves poorly is more expected to denounce that poor behavior than others?

That's been a point progressives have stood against when it comes to Muslim extremism, for example.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
A person who shares immutable qualities with someone who behaves poorly is more expected to denounce that poor behavior than others?

That's been a point progressives have stood against when it comes to Muslim extremism, for example.

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My actual objection to the "Why don't you see Muslims condemning this bombing/car-ramming/etc?" thing is the same as the "Why won't Sharpton talk about black on black crime?" stuff.

I *do* see both condemn violence, all the damn time, it's easy to find. People who say this sort of thing aren't actually interested in the facts or solutions.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:41 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I *do* see both condemn violence, all the damn time, it's easy to find. People who say this sort of thing aren't actually interested in the facts or solutions.
I don't see how anyone interested in facts could possibly come out with this nonsense:

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's mostly white people who dismiss claims of police violence or harassment of against black men (eg. - many, many threads on this board).
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:59 AM   #30
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Well this devolved rather quickly into 'whataboutery' and 'not all X people'..
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:01 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
FTFY



...but some, I assume, are good people.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:07 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm pretty sure you can't support that claim, but even if it were true, that's no excuse to insult white people as a whole, including those who don't dismiss the claim or who have never participated in any sort of oppression whatsoever.
But it's still not an insult. As I said, a woman who tweeted a link to the article is getting a *much* harsher response than the dude who wrote it it. Yeah, you'll get called a coon or get gay slurs (even if your straight), but you *don't* get rape and death threats - and one of them has tweeted exactly this point. ETA: I see Bomani Jones has jumped in as well.

Again, this isn't an assessment of *you*, it's an assessment of *society*. I'll admit to not liking the term, because I get why it feels insulting. And just as there are ways where white people are, statistically, treated better than black people, there are ways where, statistically, black women and especially black LGBT folks have it worse than black men.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:13 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
When you're basing your opinions on what you see on this forum, it's probably time to get offline for an hour.
Trust, we get it all the damm time, every time we talk to white people about it. It's not every white person, but it's a *way* higher percentage than from other minorities. If fact, it's very few black or Latino males (who often get the same harassment, if not the same unjustified murder rate), or indigenous folks (who actually have a *higher* unarmed shooting rate then black males do).
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:14 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's annoying when people dismiss claims of violence out of hand. Why use "white people" as an insult? "Facts" have nothing to do with that. It's racist, plain and simple.

I would think if you read the article you would see the purpose and it is not using 'white people' as an insult. And calling it racist is just silly in the context. I know from past threads you don't like the term racist overused, so don't succumb to the same yourself.


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't care about the point. I care that white people are treated as the enemy. That's the sort of attitute that just stokes the fires of racial hatred.

Perchance could you explain how this treats white people as the enemy? It uses common out of hand dismissals used by white people to refute issues regarding racism, and turns around to point out how they are used by straight black men in regards to black women and the issues they face.

There is literally no reason to start worrying about saying 'not all white people', because that is a given.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
But it's still not an insult.
Sure, implying that white people don't care about the plight of black people and that black people who also don't care about the plight of some black people are the whites of blacks, no that's not insulting at all.

Quote:
Again, this isn't an assessment of *you*, it's an assessment of *society*.
I didn't think otherwise, but it's still wrong and insulting, just like it's insult to say that mexican immigrants are rapists.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sure, implying that white people don't care about the plight of black people and that black people who also don't care about the plight of some black people are the whites of blacks, no that's not insulting at all.

I didn't think otherwise, but it's still wrong and insulting, just like it's insult to say that mexican immigrants are rapists.
The article literally says that it doesn't mean that all white people are racist or dismissive. But there were far too many people who looked at Dylann Roof and said "He's not a racist", despite the extremely clear evidence that he was becoming dangerous.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Well this devolved rather quickly into 'whataboutery' and 'not all X people'..
You posted that ridiculous article and thought you'd just get a well done, mate?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
But it's still not an insult. As I said, a woman who tweeted a link to the article is getting a *much* harsher response than the dude who wrote it it. Yeah, you'll get called a coon or get gay slurs (even if your straight), but you *don't* get rape and death threats - and one of them has tweeted exactly this point. ETA: I see Bomani Jones has jumped in as well.

Again, this isn't an assessment of *you*, it's an assessment of *society*. I'll admit to not liking the term, because I get why it feels insulting. And just as there are ways where white people are, statistically, treated better than black people, there are ways where, statistically, black women and especially black LGBT folks have it worse than black men.
Using an ethnic designation (really just a reference to one specific phenotypical characteristic) as a pejorative reference to socially corrosive behavior is not an insult, you say?

There wouldn't be any issue or insult inherent in me saying someone is "acting very black?"

If my gentile friend stiffs me with the dinner bill, can I talk to him about his "Jewish behavior?"

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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:38 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Trust, we get it all the damm time, every time we talk to white people about it. It's not every white person, but it's a *way* higher percentage than from other minorities. If fact, it's very few black or Latino males (who often get the same harassment, if not the same unjustified murder rate), or indigenous folks (who actually have a *higher* unarmed shooting rate then black males do).

I'm gonna have to assume that those statistics aren't based in anything concrete.

This blanket opinion of "most white people" is frankly weak.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:41 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I'm gonna have to assume that those statistics aren't based in anything concrete.

This blanket opinion of "most white people" is frankly weak.
This is a misquote. I said "mostly", not "most".
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