ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Daryl Bem , esp

Reply
Old 19th May 2020, 10:41 PM   #1
Major Major
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 355
Daryl Bem Proved ESP Is Real

This was an article that popped up when I opened a blank tab on my browser, so I took a look.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/d...=pocket-newtab

I notice that it mentions Randi.

However, it never explains why Bem did not apply for the Randi Prize (his paper was published in 2011). Did he not want to go through Randi's gantlet of comments?

:Blackcat:
Major Major is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2020, 11:03 PM   #2
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,807
I'll save you all a long read; He didn't.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
If you see a Nazi. Egg them
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2020, 11:10 PM   #3
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,395
You'd have to ask Bem why he didn't apply for the MDC. Every person with a dodgy claim has their own reason. Perhaps he didn't know about it. Perhaps he didn't believe Randi had a million dollars. Perhaps he believed it was a stitch-up and he wouldn't get a fair test. Who knows?
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 01:23 AM   #4
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,134
This was all discussed here at length some time ago.

Bem provided a kit for anyone who wanted to replicate his experiment. The replication was tried, I think twice, all with negative results.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 01:24 AM   #5
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,134
I don't think this experiment qualified for the million dollar prize.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 01:31 AM   #6
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,134
My bad, Randi specifically challenged Bem to try for the prize.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 01:51 AM   #7
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,134
I downloaded Bem's replication kit myself.

It has a secure database, but a rather curious feature that the results of each test do not go straight into the database, rather they are output as a plain text file, which is used to input into the database.

This provides plenty of opportunity for the experimenter to peak and to decide not to commit certain tests to the database.

This is what I suppose Bem did, not necessarily deliberate fraud but it could be that he had convinced himself that there was a problem with some of the tests.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 01:57 AM   #8
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,402
Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
This was an article that popped up when I opened a blank tab on my browser, so I took a look.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/d...=pocket-newtab

I notice that it mentions Randi.

However, it never explains why Bem did not apply for the Randi Prize (his paper was published in 2011). Did he not want to go through Randi's gantlet of comments?

:Blackcat:
Given you say "Daryl Bem Proved ESP Is Real" I take it you did not read the entire article?



For other folk: The main thrust of the article is about the quality and methods of research used in fields such as psychology, it is an interesting article I think we may have had a thread about it in the past.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 05:44 AM   #9
Major Major
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 355
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Given you say "Daryl Bem Proved ESP Is Real" I take it you did not read the entire article?



For other folk: The main thrust of the article is about the quality and methods of research used in fields such as psychology, it is an interesting article I think we may have had a thread about it in the past.
That was the title of the article. He produced a paper, but as people said his results had reproducibility problems.

The name is a little hard to search for.

Major Major is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 05:08 PM   #10
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,283
Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
This was an article that popped up when I opened a blank tab on my browser, so I took a look.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/d...=pocket-newtab

I notice that it mentions Randi.

However, it never explains why Bem did not apply for the Randi Prize (his paper was published in 2011). Did he not want to go through Randi's gantlet of comments?

:Blackcat:

The whole thing is obvious fiction. I lifted this from the first paragraph of the article:

Quote:
A short while later, she found herself in a conference room, seated alongside several other undergraduate women. “Have you guys heard of extrasensory perception?” Daryl Bem asked the students. They shook their heads.
A number of undergraduate women who had never heard of extrasensory perception? They must have all been under rock dwellers.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 05:33 PM   #11
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 27,851
Randi, of course, is well known for using his psychic powers to defeat people trying to prove their own psychic powers real.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 06:17 PM   #12
Nova Land
/
Tagger
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whitleyville, TN, surrounded by cats
Posts: 5,879
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
... The main thrust of the article is about the quality and methods of research used in fields such as psychology, it is an interesting article I think we may have had a thread about it in the past.

Here's a fairly lengthy merged thread from 2010 in which Bem and his article were discussed.

(And anyone interested in reviewing other past discussions of Bem and his thoughts can find a few other JREF threads about him in this list.)
Nova Land is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2020, 06:44 PM   #13
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,565
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A number of undergraduate women who had never heard of extrasensory perception? They must have all been under rock dwellers.

Maybe they were all Jennifer Runyon from Ghostbusters.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 04:44 AM   #14
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 16,417
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A number of undergraduate women who had never heard of extrasensory perception? They must have all been under rock dwellers.

I'm sure they had all heard of "ESP," they just had no idea what "extrasensory perception" was.
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 05:58 AM   #15
paiute
Graduate Poster
 
paiute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,360
Apology to blondes everywhere

Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I'm sure they had all heard of "ESP," they just had no idea what "extrasensory perception" was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8caeFYzPxk
__________________
A Novel and Efficient Synthesis of Cadaverine
Organic chemistry, vengeful ghosts, and high explosives. What could possibly go wrong?
Now free for download!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A...-of-Cadaverine
paiute is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2020, 03:48 PM   #16
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
That was the title of the article. He produced a paper, but as people said his results had reproducibility problems.

The name is a little hard to search for.

That's why it's now becoming mandatory to pre-register study details, hypotheses and planned analyses before collecting data.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd May 2020, 04:47 PM   #17
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,273
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Maybe they were all Jennifer Runyon from Ghostbusters.
I have a new happy place to retreat to.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 12:48 PM   #18
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,271
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Randi, of course, is well known for using his psychic powers to defeat people trying to prove their own psychic powers real.

I remember a parapsychologist once seriously claiming that there would never be a published report about a successful psychic experiment because skeptics would read the report and the negative vibrations of their disbelief would travel back in time and retroactively interfere with the psychic's powers.
Armitage72 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 01:14 PM   #19
Ulf Nereng
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 429
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I remember a parapsychologist once seriously claiming that there would never be a published report about a successful psychic experiment because skeptics would read the report and the negative vibrations of their disbelief would travel back in time and retroactively interfere with the psychic's powers.
I thought the problem with Randi is that he is emitting a strong negativity-field that stretches at least a mile in all directions. Any psychic person who enters will instantly have their powers negated. Psychics who can normally read minds, find metal or water with consummate ease, or lift heavy objects with their minds alone thus become unable to do so untill they get to a safe distance from him.
Ulf Nereng is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 01:20 PM   #20
wardenclyffe
Master Poster
 
wardenclyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,291
People who live in haunted houses should let a skeptic live with them rent-free. Haunting problem solved.

Ward
__________________
~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~
- Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347
wardenclyffe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:22 PM   #21
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,778
Originally Posted by wardenclyffe View Post
People who live in haunted houses should let a skeptic live with them rent-free. Haunting problem solved.

Ward
I wonder what we could call them?
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:39 PM   #22
Pope130
Illuminator
 
Pope130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,379
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I wonder what we could call them?

"Ghostbusters" is too obvious.

How about "Woobegone"?
Pope130 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 09:52 PM   #23
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,778
Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
"Ghostbusters" is too obvious.

How about "Woobegone"?
I guess I should have used italics as well as bolding. . . .
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.