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Old 8th March 2021, 03:34 PM   #1801
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Statues. Regardless of the community composition that chose to put up the statue, why should their choices of who to glorify be imposed on the people who live there now? We don't get our knowledge of history by scavenger-hunting statues around town, we have History class in schools for that. Statues are purely posturing, and different generations will have different appearances they want to present. I don't see a single statue out there as 'sacred'. Put them up, rip them down, it's all about who lives there and can choose to do so.
I, for one, agree. Back in the heyday of this thread my point was that the community of people who live there now should make the decision, as opposed to a small group of people who happen to have rope or hammers available.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:03 PM   #1802
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's odd, the version I keep seeing is:

You: Fewer Confederate Statues were torn down than those of the Founding Fathers!
Me: No, that's not true, check the Wikipedia page.
You: I did, and despite the numbers disagreeing with my claim I'm right!


2 weeks later:

You: let me bump the thread to point out that everyone remembers wrong, more statues of the Founding Fathers were torn down than Confederate statues!
Etc, etc

Another couple of weeks later the cycle starts again
You must be reading a completely different thread than I've been reading, because at no point did Meadmaker claim that MORE founding fathers were torn down than Confederate statues.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:05 PM   #1803
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I think we would be hard pressed to find a monument to anyone, pre 20th century, who was not a racist, bigoted, sexist, by todays standards..
By their contemporary standards: not so much. ( not that they are in short supply post 20th century )

Did the concept of being sexist even exist pre 20th century?

If I have a point, it would be that anyone who needs an excuse to tear down a monument, shouldn't have any trouble finding one.
No more so than the concept of being racist existed prior to the civil war. But the practice of sexism was (and is) very much in evidence throughout history.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:29 PM   #1804
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Confederate propaganda isn't littered all over public places in the South in the interest of preserving history. These statues are placed in positions of prominence to venerate, not to remember.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:44 PM   #1805
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Confederate propaganda isn't littered all over public places in the South in the interest of preserving history. These statues are placed in positions of prominence to venerate, not to remember.
It's also worth repeating at this point that the majority of Confederate statues were not erected immediately after the Civil War to honour soldiers, but during the Jim Crow era to reinforce white supremacy. Nothing says "we're better than you" like making sure people literally look up at white people.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:52 AM   #1806
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think there can be such a defense. I will defend the existence of battlefield monuments, and I don't think my defense has anything to do with ignorance or racism. I will defend monuments in cemeteries. I will be open minded about monuments to dead soldiers if those were placed by people who knew those soldiers, and I would be inclined to defend those monuments, but on a case by case basis, and my defense is not due to ignorance or racism.
This feels like a straw man. Was anyone talking about battlefield monuments, which is, essentially, the outdoor equivalent to a museum, a place for educating and contextualizing history? I, myself, said I would be okay with the Forest Park Confederate monument being moved to a museum. No one, that I can recall, mentioned removing Confederate monuments from private land, for example.

Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like we’ve always been talking about Confederate monuments in public squares and parks, or similar.
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Old 9th March 2021, 05:36 AM   #1807
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Turns out a match is a pretty effective way of erasing those too.
No one is suggesting that. We're talking about removing statues, not books. Statues that glorify traitors and racists.
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Old 9th March 2021, 05:40 AM   #1808
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If they are historically significant, yes.
They're also not suggesting melting them down. Put them in a museum.
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Old 9th March 2021, 05:56 AM   #1809
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
They're also not suggesting melting them down. Put them in a museum.
Assuming museums want them. A lot of this crap really isn't that historically interesting, nor scarce enough to be worth collecting. Pro-confederate propaganda is incredibly prolific and much of it does not have much artistic value. The "Silent Sam" statues are notably mass produced and not particularly interesting, as an example.

Some museums may be willing to take some of these statues, but we should not be shocked if many end up at the scrap yard.
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Old 9th March 2021, 06:42 AM   #1810
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Assuming museums want them. A lot of this crap really isn't that historically interesting, nor scarce enough to be worth collecting. Pro-confederate propaganda is incredibly prolific and much of it does not have much artistic value. The "Silent Sam" statues are notably mass produced and not particularly interesting, as an example.

Some museums may be willing to take some of these statues, but we should not be shocked if many end up at the scrap yard.
Sure, but it could be a private museum or whatever. I don't care. The point is that the statues themselves are not history; books are. If some people want to preserve the statue for whatever reason, including personal artistic tastes or historical interest, let them.
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Old 9th March 2021, 06:48 AM   #1811
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sure, but it could be a private museum or whatever. I don't care. The point is that the statues themselves are not history; books are. If some people want to preserve the statue for whatever reason, including personal artistic tastes or historical interest, let them.
I agree. I just think it's important to recognize that a lot of these are likely to end up in the dumpster, not because of "wokeness", but because they are simply not valuable enough to keep. State funding is playing a huge role in keeping this crap extant.

I imagine some neo-confederate association might spring up to take all this trash and warehouse it somewhere, as is the reactionary way. Good for them, so long as they can do it without public funding.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:12 AM   #1812
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I wonder if anyone will ever dare to explore the racism of our founding fathers?

Because, racists, misogynists and etc. they certainly were..

Can they be excused because they didn't know they were these things?
There is a vast ignorance among USAians about the history of their country, mixed with an unhealthy worship of the mythologised "Founding Fathers" and unwillingness to accept uncomfortable realities.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:22 AM   #1813
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
They're also not suggesting melting them down. Put them in a museum.
Which one and why?
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:52 AM   #1814
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which one and why?
Why do you need me to tell you where and why someone else might want to keep these statues? What a strange question.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:59 AM   #1815
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This feels like a straw man. Was anyone talking about battlefield monuments, which is, essentially, the outdoor equivalent to a museum, a place for educating and contextualizing history? I, myself, said I would be okay with the Forest Park Confederate monument being moved to a museum. No one, that I can recall, mentioned removing Confederate monuments from private land, for example.
And these people who are so desperate to put statues in museums, well are there any that want these mass produced statues that glorify white supremacy? I mean if only someone had saved the statues of Saddam, Lenin and Hitler. With out statues of them clearly no one has ever heard of them. We need Hitler statues in every public square in america clearly!
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:01 AM   #1816
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why do you need me to tell you where and why someone else might want to keep these statues? What a strange question.
Because you suggest that such a place exists, therefor it is your claim to support.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:06 AM   #1817
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And these people who are so desperate to put statues in museums, well are there any that want these mass produced statues that glorify white supremacy? I mean if only someone had saved the statues of Saddam, Lenin and Hitler. With out statues of them clearly no one has ever heard of them. We need Hitler statues in every public square in america clearly!
It's not a terrible idea to have one or two confederate statues in museums somewhere.

I saw an excellent exhibit of wartime propaganda posters from WWII in the museum at the FDR library a few years back. The posters were largely racist and not a set of ideals to be celebrated. But put in historical context, they were a great and visceral illustration of the attitudes at the time, and seeing the objects did bring to mind what it was like to be in America during the war and see these plastered on every wall in a way that reading a passage about it in a book might not.

I think museums that properly contextualize the objects would do well to have artifacts used by the Nazis and Soviets and Saddam's regime to celebrate their leaders. Just like we have museums of Greek, and Mayan and Assyrian artifacts celebrating their bloody and unjust war victories. It's not the only way we can remember history and they don't have a place of honor in the public square, but museums are a fine place for such things.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:09 AM   #1818
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because you suggest that such a place exists
I did no such thing. I suggested to a poster who thinks they are historically significant that he could put them in a museum. They can build such a museum for all I care.

As usual your reading comprehension is abysmal.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:11 AM   #1819
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
It's not a terrible idea to have one or two confederate statues in museums somewhere.

I saw an excellent exhibit of wartime propaganda posters from WWII in the museum at the FDR library a few years back. The posters were largely racist and not a set of ideals to be celebrated. But put in historical context, they were a great and visceral illustration of the attitudes at the time, and seeing the objects did bring to mind what it was like to be in America during the war and see these plastered on every wall in a way that reading a passage about it in a book might not.
Posters are much easier to store and display that a collection of large statues.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:14 AM   #1820
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This feels like a straw man. Was anyone talking about battlefield monuments, which is, essentially, the outdoor equivalent to a museum, a place for educating and contextualizing history? I, myself, said I would be okay with the Forest Park Confederate monument being moved to a museum. No one, that I can recall, mentioned removing Confederate monuments from private land, for example.

Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like we’ve always been talking about Confederate monuments in public squares and parks, or similar.
You asked a question. I was just answering it. I gave three examples of classes of monuments I would support, or be inclined to support. You picked one of those. Nice touch with "straw man" after doing that. There's a little bit of forum chutzpah for you.

And, of course, statues in all three of the classes I mentioned have indeed been discussed in the thread.


But, I revived this thread to call attention to the fact that news stories and a post in the forum have referred to events of last summer as if the statues removed last summer were Confederate memorials, instead of a general wave of statue destruction with multiple sorts of targets. (Let us remember with fondness the elk who is no longer with us.) Now, here we are talking about Confederate monuments again.

I did have occasion to look back to the beginning of the thread, and, as is so often the case, anything worth saying was said in the first few pages, so I'm bowing out.

For this and other reasons, see my sig. (At least, a few minutes after this is posted.)
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:15 AM   #1821
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I did no such thing. I suggested to a poster who thinks they are historically significant that he could put them in a museum. They can build such a museum for all I care.

As usual your reading comprehension is abysmal.
No you were suggesting to a poster who was saying that no museum wanted them. Which on review was also your point. How many posts back do you have to go to find someone actually suggesting they are historically or artistically valuable? But in the post I was responding to you were certainly not responding to someone who thought they were historically valuable. Or are you claiming now that SuburbanTurkey thinks they are historically valuable?
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:16 AM   #1822
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Last I heard the statue that started all this, the Bristol one of Colston, was being put in a museum complete with graffiti and ropes. So it's the events of last summer that will be commemorated by it, rather than the man.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:20 AM   #1823
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No you were suggesting to a poster who was saying that no museum wanted them. Which on review was also your point. How many posts back do you have to go to find someone actually suggesting they are historically or artistically valuable?
Again, I did no such thing. I said that statues are not history and IF someone wants them, they can put them in a museum, private or public. If no museum wants them they can build a new one. I don't care. It makes the question of their value IRRELEVANT.

For pete's sake, learn to read.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:25 AM   #1824
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Posters are much easier to store and display that a collection of large statues.
That's certainly true, but many museums also store a great number of statues and things that take up a great deal more space.

I recall a holocaust museum in Naples FLorida, not a massive museum in total space, but they had a (if I recall correctly) something like a 20' square room space mostly filled by a recreation of a concentration camp barracks space. I'm fairly certain I've routinely seen larger spaces give over to even less specifically historically significant artifacts. Museum space isn't infinite, but it isn't in such short supply that any of them having a corner for a confederate statue is unthinkable.

And I believe part of this discussion came from talking about outdoor museum and museum-like spaces like those centered around historical battlegrounds.

I come from Concord, where the revolutionary war started and the town is full of outdoor spaces with old statues and contemporary museum style informational plaques. The area around the Old North Bridge for instance is essentially a museum with only a small part being indoors.

And museums like the Smithsonian have insane numbers of artifacts in storage.

This is all to say that confederate monuments aren't super precious things that need to ALL be preserved, but that I wouldn't be shocked if there were some interest and space to preserve some number of them.
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Old 9th March 2021, 09:06 AM   #1825
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I'm reminded somewhat of a report I saw (specific place not remembered), about a field in Eastern Europe, in which a bunch of partially demolished and toppled Communist statues were planted, essentially just plopped onto the ground rather unceremoniously, but in an orderly array. The result is a park where the statues are in some way preserved, but in this case the statues stand not for the lionizing of their subjects, but for the history of the time in which it happened. The banality and inappropriateness of the statues is a part of their history too. I think the Colson statue represents a similar approach, in which it is recognized that the statue does indeed stand for something - just not what its original erectors wanted.

I've often thought that, perhaps instead of just tearing some of those monuments down, they should be left up, complete with graffiti and commentary, evolving ruins reflecting the sentiments and historic context of those who were right to deface them. Or, perhaps in some cases, perhaps where some artistic merit is believed to exist, to build a big box around them, and on that box to explain what is inside, and why it is no longer seen. A history lesson in which the subject of the statue is no longer seen as history, but the existence of it is.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:03 AM   #1826
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
<snip>

This is all to say that confederate monuments aren't super precious things that need to ALL be preserved, but that I wouldn't be shocked if there were some interest and space to preserve some number of them.
There is a "yuge" amount of interest in preserving them from the racists and those pandering for the racist vote. I don't think that interest would be nearly as "bigly" if those demanding we keep the statues in places of honor at Courthouses and the like couldn't use those statues to remind minorities to know their place. Oh, and if they had to pay in any way out of their own pocket, i.e. a museum that charged entrance. I'd bet any such museum would be bankrupt in short order.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:12 AM   #1827
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm reminded somewhat of a report I saw (specific place not remembered), about a field in Eastern Europe, in which a bunch of partially demolished and toppled Communist statues were planted, essentially just plopped onto the ground rather unceremoniously, but in an orderly array. The result is a park where the statues are in some way preserved, but in this case the statues stand not for the lionizing of their subjects, but for the history of the time in which it happened. The banality and inappropriateness of the statues is a part of their history too. I think the Colson statue represents a similar approach, in which it is recognized that the statue does indeed stand for something - just not what its original erectors wanted.

I've often thought that, perhaps instead of just tearing some of those monuments down, they should be left up, complete with graffiti and commentary, evolving ruins reflecting the sentiments and historic context of those who were right to deface them. Or, perhaps in some cases, perhaps where some artistic merit is believed to exist, to build a big box around them, and on that box to explain what is inside, and why it is no longer seen. A history lesson in which the subject of the statue is no longer seen as history, but the existence of it is.
You are talking about preserving history.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:24 AM   #1828
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So, if I put a statue of a giant penis in front of your business, let’s say a day care, could you just take some video of me doing so or do you think you have to leave it there for the duration of any legal cases you bring against me?

How much evidence is enough evidence?
Does the erection of said statue say anything relevant about the culture that put it up? Or is it more of a personal sxpression?
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:34 AM   #1829
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are talking about preserving history.
Not, I think, in the way meant by those who think the statues should be left standing. I do not propose to preserve the history, but to write it anew. I'm talking about using the existence of the statues to teach not of the subjects of the statues, but of the false stories that the statues stood for. It does not mean all the statues, or even some specific subset of them, should be preserved, but a little dramatization can be useful in teaching the history of great wrongs. The defacement, destruction and downfall of the statues is itself a moment in history worth understanding.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:37 AM   #1830
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Does the erection of said statue say anything relevant about the culture that put it up? Or is it more of a personal sxpression?
I’m sure the people who put up the penis statue could clear the “cultural significance” threshold with some disingenuous crap the same way that Neo-Confederates do.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:41 AM   #1831
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not, I think, in the way meant by those who think the statues should be left standing. I do not propose to preserve the history, but to write it anew. I'm talking about using the existence of the statues to teach not of the subjects of the statues, but of the false stories that the statues stood for. It does not mean all the statues, or even some specific subset of them, should be preserved, but a little dramatization can be useful in teaching the history of great wrongs. The defacement, destruction and downfall of the statues is itself a moment in history worth understanding.
Yeah, Those are history too.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:45 AM   #1832
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are talking about preserving history.
It’s weird that we keep talking about “preserving history” in regard to a concerted effort to rewrite it.

Maybe once the racists and Neo-Confederates admit the truth about the “history” they’re “preserving”, we can have this discussion.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:47 AM   #1833
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yeah, Those are history too.
Sounds like you’re on board with the defacement and destruction of these statues.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:50 AM   #1834
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It’s weird that we keep talking about “preserving history” in regard to a concerted effort to rewrite it.

Maybe once the racists and Neo-Confederates admit the truth about the “history” they’re “preserving”, we can have this discussion.
I'm all for putting up a statue of johnny reb having a bayonet rammed through his chest, or ******** himself to death with dysentery. You know, the real history of the civil war, not this white supremacy fan-fic.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:55 AM   #1835
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You asked a question. I was just answering it.
I apologize. I thought you understood the context of the conversation. I will try to be a specific as possible in the future to avoid confusion.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I gave three examples of classes of monuments I would support, or be inclined to support. You picked one of those.
Yes, your other ones consisted of "pretty statue of some guy on horse", which is defending the racist statue based on ignorance, and ...I don't know how to characterize your other one. "It's okay to glorify the guy fighting for a racist cause because we knew and loved him", I guess?

I mean, none of them were good arguments, I just hadn't addressed that first one yet.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Nice touch with "straw man" after doing that. There's a little bit of forum chutzpah for you.
Well, it was.
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Old 9th March 2021, 11:24 AM   #1836
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yeah, Those are history too.
The existence of the statues is, indeed, history. Their existence is the history that people once swallowed false history, which now needs rewriting by displacing, defacing and demolishing them, and explaining why. A few examples might help, just as we cannot properly explain the harm done by racist images and expressions without at least occasionally, somewhere, remembering what they were. People forget too much too soon.

I think in a sideways way this ties in with other things. People's memory is so short and so easily manipulated that measures taken to minimize harm are often reinterpreted as proof that there was no harm to minimize. Young conservatives despise environmental protection because it's been in effect all their lives. They don't recall, and don't care to learn, what things were like before. They see that there are no raw turds floating down the river today, and that vultures are flying overhead, and do not know or care to learn that this was once not the case. If we simply make all the statues disappear, a couple of generations hence, too many people will wonder what the fuss was about.

So yes, I think history would be well served by the preservation of a few toppled statues. But like Ozymandias, the lesson is not in their vainglory, but in their downfall.

e.t.a., though thinking about it, I do think there is little need for the statues themselves to remain, if in their place were put a monument saying what was once there, why it was wrong, and why it was removed. You probably don't need to see the otherwise generic man on a horse.
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Old 15th March 2021, 12:56 PM   #1837
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Does the erection of said statue say anything relevant about the culture that put it up? Or is it more of a personal sxpression?
Yes. No.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:29 PM   #1838
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The last page of the American Civil War.

Activists Stole a Confederate Memorial and Are Threatening to Turn It Into a Toilet [vice.com]
Quote:
What’s funnier than tearing down a Confederate monument? Stealing it and threatening to turn it into a toilet.

That’s exactly what happened in Alabama, where officials confirmed Monday that a monument to Confederate President Jefferson Davis estimated to be worth $500,000 was stolen from a cemetery in Selma last month, according to AL.com. The monument is a stone chair that was dedicated in 1893.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:59 PM   #1839
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How incommodious of them
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:13 PM   #1840
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That's hilarious.

I would not pay 500,000 dollars for that chair.

(I feel obligated to declare sanctimoniously that I do not approve of vandalism of public property outside of the law but......that ransom note was way cool. Plus, of all the people whose monuments were toppled within the last year, Jefferson Davis is number one on the list of people whose monuments really ought to be torn down and thrown in the river. Generals and soldiers I can respect independently of their cause, but politicians arguing for an awful cause are just awful.)
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