Acupuncture - scam or legit? - Page 2

Skeptic Ginger · 24th January 2021, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Which brings us back, yet again, to the lack of a biologically, anatomically, physiologically credible, coherent and evidence-based means of action for acupuncture...

After-the-fact it has been speculated it works something like a TENS device. But of course that would require a proper anatomical connection which there is not.

I should point out, however, that referred pain is a well recognized phenomena. It is also consistent from patient to patient.

Carrot Flower King · 24th January 2021, 11:28 AM

"Speculated" is the crucial word there and is not what is claimed by the practitioners.

Caroline13 · 31st January 2021, 12:11 PM

New 82 yr old member here, and I've had some really good sessions of accupuncture on my OA and damaged body from hip replacement mess. If I had infinite money, I would be getting more sessions to help clean up the damage done to my body.

P.J. Denyer · 1st February 2021, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I believe there was at least one very suggestible person who was able to have surgery with acupuncture anesthesia but this was not repeatable

IIRC there was a famous Chinese case of heart(?) surgery carried out under acupuncture, however the patient, although conscious had been given copious injections of local anaesthetic around the surgical site making the reality very different from the deliberately created perception of the event.

HHellpop · 1st February 2021, 04:50 AM

I recently went for some physical therapy within a hospital/clinic organization (ie: not an individual practice). I was offered "dry needling" along with the traditional exercises. When I looked it up and how it compared to acupuncture, I was surprised to find that, in a health care system, only acupuncture required a medical license. Even if I bought their claim that dry needling was effective (which I don't), there was no way in hell that I would consent to a non-medically-licensed person plunging needles into me!

The exercises they taught me, on the other hand, were very effective!

Carrot Flower King · 1st February 2021, 05:25 AM

Aaah, yes, "dry needling": the latest attempt to get a "not really acupuncture, but nudge, nudge, wink, wink" through the doors.

From what I've read, its practitioners avoid all the meridian and qi nonsense, which makes it even more of a theatrical placebo, without even bothering to come up with a facade of "theory" to cover its quivering, naked nonsensicallness.

HHellpop · 1st February 2021, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Aaah, yes, "dry needling": the latest attempt to get a "not really acupuncture, but nudge, nudge, wink, wink" through the doors.

From what I've read, its practitioners avoid all the meridian and qi nonsense, which makes it even more of a theatrical placebo, without even bothering to come up with a facade of "theory" to cover its quivering, naked nonsensicallness.

Yes, I agree. Her claim was that it was supported by scientific studies. But in my research, the best I could find was "inconclusive", with others stating there was no difference from placebo. Fortunately, it was not mentioned again and we proceeded with normal PT.

"quivering, naked nonsensicalness" - Awesome! I'm stealing that.

Carrot Flower King · 1st February 2021, 06:03 AM

I have to say that some of my former colleagues in various clinical disciplines had a poor grasp of "science" and "research": several arguments with team mates who struggled with the idea of research not just being "it's in a book"; big arguments with our tutor right back at the start of my nurse training about how heritable psychoses are, in which they claimed that one of the twin studies papers said something it didn't actually say and then became confused when I talked about some pretty basic stats (it was basic enough that I could understand it...). Things should be better than they are.

24th January 2021, 10:29 AM	#41
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,887	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Which brings us back, yet again, to the lack of a biologically, anatomically, physiologically credible, coherent and evidence-based means of action for acupuncture... After-the-fact it has been speculated it works something like a TENS device. But of course that would require a proper anatomical connection which there is not. I should point out, however, that referred pain is a well recognized phenomena. It is also consistent from patient to patient.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 24th January 2021 at 10:31 AM.

1st February 2021, 03:48 AM	#44
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,838	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I believe there was at least one very suggestible person who was able to have surgery with acupuncture anesthesia but this was not repeatable IIRC there was a famous Chinese case of heart(?) surgery carried out under acupuncture, however the patient, although conscious had been given copious injections of local anaesthetic around the surgical site making the reality very different from the deliberately created perception of the event.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,838	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

1st February 2021, 04:50 AM	#45
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	I recently went for some physical therapy within a hospital/clinic organization (ie: not an individual practice). I was offered "dry needling" along with the traditional exercises. When I looked it up and how it compared to acupuncture, I was surprised to find that, in a health care system, only acupuncture required a medical license. Even if I bought their claim that dry needling was effective (which I don't), there was no way in hell that I would consent to a non-medically-licensed person plunging needles into me! The exercises they taught me, on the other hand, were very effective!
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow

1st February 2021, 05:46 AM	#47
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Aaah, yes, "dry needling": the latest attempt to get a "not really acupuncture, but nudge, nudge, wink, wink" through the doors. From what I've read, its practitioners avoid all the meridian and qi nonsense, which makes it even more of a theatrical placebo, without even bothering to come up with a facade of "theory" to cover its quivering, naked nonsensicallness. Yes, I agree. Her claim was that it was supported by scientific studies. But in my research, the best I could find was "inconclusive", with others stating there was no difference from placebo. Fortunately, it was not mentioned again and we proceeded with normal PT. "quivering, naked nonsensicalness" - Awesome! I'm stealing that.
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow

24th January 2021, 11:28 AM	#42
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 736	"Speculated" is the crucial word there and is not what is claimed by the practitioners.

31st January 2021, 12:11 PM	#43
Caroline13 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 224	New 82 yr old member here, and I've had some really good sessions of accupuncture on my OA and damaged body from hip replacement mess. If I had infinite money, I would be getting more sessions to help clean up the damage done to my body.

1st February 2021, 05:25 AM	#46
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 736	Aaah, yes, "dry needling": the latest attempt to get a "not really acupuncture, but nudge, nudge, wink, wink" through the doors. From what I've read, its practitioners avoid all the meridian and qi nonsense, which makes it even more of a theatrical placebo, without even bothering to come up with a facade of "theory" to cover its quivering, naked nonsensicallness.

1st February 2021, 06:03 AM	#48
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 736	I have to say that some of my former colleagues in various clinical disciplines had a poor grasp of "science" and "research": several arguments with team mates who struggled with the idea of research not just being "it's in a book"; big arguments with our tutor right back at the start of my nurse training about how heritable psychoses are, in which they claimed that one of the twin studies papers said something it didn't actually say and then became confused when I talked about some pretty basic stats (it was basic enough that I could understand it...). Things should be better than they are.