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Old 10th October 2018, 01:29 PM   #1001
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It goes deeper than football, Rangers and Celtic are just convenient pegs.
I understand that, I'm trying to pin down the nature of this 'religious dress'.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:17 PM   #1002
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The degree to which Baylor has ignored the various iterations of that question speaks volumes.
The Home Office answered that question for me. A substantial but unknown number of communities has been conceded to Muslim parallel societies and aren't beholden to UK law.

Quote:
"Such is the protective veil surrounding these religious tribunals (or councils, as Islamic jurists prefer to call them) that, as a recent Home Office review conceded, not even the Government knows how many operate in this country.

What we do know is that sharia courts are proliferating across Britain and are held in many towns and cities with sizeable Muslim communities.

As the Government review states, critics regard them as anathema to British values because they ‘keep many Muslims isolated, entrenched and with little social stake in wider British citizenship and life’."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-report.html

As for the "getting people on the Internet to prove something" challenge...well, the top comment from that article--with 1056 upvotes and only 27 downvotes--corroborates everything I've been saying thus far.

"At first one would say 'beyond belief' but if you have lived in this country over the years then you would not in anyway be surprised! A country within a country."

Last edited by Baylor; 10th October 2018 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:35 PM   #1003
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
As I mentioned upthread, that is ancient history and it was before the fearless, childless leaders of Europe put their multicultural utopia plan into overdrive. The guy was an EDL member so he was a Muslim Uncle Tom.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:02 PM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Protestant/Catholic divide as best exampled by football and Rangers vs Celtic, is pretty well known. Religious bigotry has and is a big issue for many.



The posters in the campaign do not say what you suggest they are saying. There is no reference to any religion. The big problem in Scotland Glasgow is, as I said, Protestant vs Catholic.
FYP

Most Hearts/Hibs fans along with the sheep lovers up north in Aberdeen don't believe in this sectarian idiocy, nor do the fans in Dundee.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:36 PM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Has a Muslim ever been successfully prosecuted for Hate Speech in Scotland?
You were given an example of one pages and pages ago and you just pretended nothing had happened
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:38 PM   #1006
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As I mentioned upthread, that is ancient history and it was before the fearless, childless leaders of Europe put their multicultural utopia plan into overdrive. The guy was an EDL member so he was a Muslim Uncle Tom.
Expected dodge noted.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:51 PM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The Home Office answered that question for me. A substantial but unknown number of communities has been conceded to Muslim parallel societies and aren't beholden to UK law.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-report.html

As for the "getting people on the Internet to prove something" challenge...well, the top comment from that article--with 1056 upvotes and only 27 downvotes--corroborates everything I've been saying thus far.

"At first one would say 'beyond belief' but if you have lived in this country over the years then you would not in anyway be surprised! A country within a country."
Why do you wish to do away with a literally centuries old right?
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Old 11th October 2018, 12:06 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The Home Office answered that question for me. A substantial but unknown number of communities has been conceded to Muslim parallel societies and aren't beholden to UK law.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-report.html

As for the "getting people on the Internet to prove something" challenge...well, the top comment from that article--with 1056 upvotes and only 27 downvotes--corroborates everything I've been saying thus far.

"At first one would say 'beyond belief' but if you have lived in this country over the years then you would not in anyway be surprised! A country within a country."
You are conflating two separate things: Sharia "law" (it isn't), and no-go areas. There are no such thing as the latter, and the former is one of the many different forms of conciliation process that is acceptable before cases go to court. It isn't applicable to criminal activity, but is a voluntary arrangement in cases of civil disagreement.

I am an architect, and administer contracts between clients and builders all the time. Built into every contract is a dispute resolution process, in which the parties agree to trying conciliation or arbitration to resolve disputes prior to going to court. Sharia "courts" hold the same place in law as these processes. It is not the sinister thing you like to believe. As an atheist, I would rather they didn't exist, and that no religious body ever gets to determine anything. However, for some people Sharia "courts" (they're not courts at all, they're more like councils) are a useful way of resolving disputes before they escalate into something requiring recourse to the law. They actually spend most of their time sorting out "divorces" of people who aren't actually officially married.

Now, of course you will ignore all that and just blather on about Sharia and no-go areas as if I had said nothing.
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Last edited by MikeG; 11th October 2018 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 11th October 2018, 12:08 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The Home Office answered that question for me. A substantial but unknown number of communities has been conceded to Muslim parallel societies and aren't beholden to UK law.........
That is simply a lie. A 100% falsehood. It is not the case at all, in any way. That won't stop you repeating it, which confirms you as a liar.

The only people living in the country who aren't subject to UK law are foreign diplomats, as is the case in every country in the world.
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Old 11th October 2018, 01:21 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why do you wish to do away with a literally centuries old right?
Because I believe in women's rights, gay rights, animal rights, victim's rights, etc. I have the conviction to stand up for these rights. I'm sorry you don't.

Quote:
[T]he lack of protection for these women under the countryís law that has led to sharia councils springing up in the UK. According to the thinktank Civitas, there are about 85 in existence. Some are informal gatherings of ďauthoritative figuresĒ; others are formal setups attached to mosques....


Itís not often we can say that British Muslim womenís rights should match those of the women in Muslim countries.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8064796.html
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:02 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You are conflating two separate things: Sharia "law" (it isn't), and no-go areas. There are no such thing as the latter, and the former is one of the many different forms of conciliation process that is acceptable before cases go to court. It isn't applicable to criminal activity, but is a voluntary arrangement in cases of civil disagreement.
It's certainly voluntary for the man. For the woman, less so.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:40 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Because I believe in women's rights, gay rights, animal rights, victim's rights, etc. I have the conviction to stand up for these rights. I'm sorry you don't.
...snip...
That is what is known around these parts as a non sequitur.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:47 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's certainly voluntary for the man. For the woman, less so.
Yes I agree there is some legitimate concerns about ensuring people (especially those in potentially vulnerable groups) know their rights and the legal implications and limits of voluntary arbitration. And I do know there have been targeted campaigns to try and reach potentially vulnerable people.

But unless we want to strip all of us of our right to agree to voluntary arbitration there isn't much more we can do.

And removing the right to agree to voluntary arbitration would mean our courts would be overwhelmed within days.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:48 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The Home Office answered that question for me. A substantial but unknown number of communities has been conceded to Muslim parallel societies and aren't beholden to UK law.
Shariah courts are mutually-agreed civil tribunals that cannot over-ride British law. I'm not sure how many more times you need to be told that.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:49 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As I mentioned upthread, that is ancient history and it was before the fearless, childless leaders of Europe put their multicultural utopia plan into overdrive.
Heavy irony. And paranoia. As usual.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:49 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Shariah courts are mutually-agreed civil tribunals that cannot over-ride British law. I'm not sure how many more times you need to be told that.
Built into that statement is an assumption that someone is interested in facts.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:53 AM   #1017
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Because I believe in women's rights, gay rights, animal rights, victim's rights, etc. I have the conviction to stand up for these rights. I'm sorry you don't.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8064796.html
BBC News: Plight of Jewish 'chained women' trapped in broken marriage
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:54 AM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Built into that statement is an assumption that someone is interested in facts.
I love the feeling of a brick wall against my forehead in the morning....
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:00 AM   #1019
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I love the feeling of a brick wall against my forehead in the morning....
It's even funnier when you remember that the same type of "courts" exist in the USA based on the same right.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:20 AM   #1020
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Are they also targeted against mosques? Nah, we both know that answer to that.
I do not know where the adverts have been placed in relation to any religious building and neither do you.

Quote:
And is it right for the police to be supporting literature that 'has a dig' (i.e. provokes, inflames, mocks) any portion of society?
My words, have a dig, meaning to warn and the target is bigots, who come from any and all religions.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:25 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I understand that, I'm trying to pin down the nature of this 'religious dress'.
Here is an example that is often seen in Scotland;

https://img.theculturetrip.com/840x4...t_2011_159.jpg

the Protestant Orange Lodge. The also common is the traditional "dog collar" seen on reverends/ministers and the "habit" worn by nuns.

Then other religions have various head dresses and women wear traditional clothing.

Did you really need that explaining to you?
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:30 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
FYP

Most Hearts/Hibs fans along with the sheep lovers up north in Aberdeen don't believe in this sectarian idiocy, nor do the fans in Dundee.
The Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee fans of their local clubs stay out of the bigotry. The fans from those cities who get buses every match day to see their Old Firm team often do.

People travel from all over Scotland to watch either Rangers or Celtic.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:36 AM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The Home Office answered that question for me. A substantial but unknown number of communities has been conceded to Muslim parallel societies and aren't beholden to UK law.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-report.html

As for the "getting people on the Internet to prove something" challenge...well, the top comment from that article--with 1056 upvotes and only 27 downvotes--corroborates everything I've been saying thus far.

"At first one would say 'beyond belief' but if you have lived in this country over the years then you would not in anyway be surprised! A country within a country."
All religions have the or own courts deciding on matters pertaining to their church, the conduct of its members, church policy and secular activity to name but a few. Here is the Church of Scotland's;

http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/a...neral_assembly
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:45 AM   #1024
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Here is an example that is often seen in Scotland;

https://img.theculturetrip.com/840x4...t_2011_159.jpg

the Protestant Orange Lodge. The also common is the traditional "dog collar" seen on reverends/ministers and the "habit" worn by nuns.

Then other religions have various head dresses and women wear traditional clothing.

Did you really need that explaining to you?
So it's your contention that this Clockwork Orange looking gaggle comprise those who the poster alleged 'have their lives made a misery because of their religious dress'? Plus ministers in dog collars and nuns wearing habits. Are you asserting that these are the people who are being actively protected by this message?
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:04 AM   #1025
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Are you asserting that these are the people who are being actively protected by this message?
Hang on a moment. When did we establish that protecting people from religiously motivated assault was a bad thing unless they're Christian?

(Oh, and by the way, there's a long history of orthodox Jews being singled out for persecution based on their religious dress. Did you want that revived, or are you OK with posters telling people not to do it?)

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Old 11th October 2018, 07:08 AM   #1026
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So it's your contention that this Clockwork Orange looking gaggle comprise those who the poster alleged 'have their lives made a misery because of their religious dress'? Plus ministers in dog collars and nuns wearing habits. Are you asserting that these are the people who are being actively protected by this message?
I was only showing you examples of religious dress seen in Scotland. I have not looked at any crime figures for which religions are at the receiving end of the most/least amount of hate.

The message is any religious dress should be tolerated and not cause the wearer to be the subject of hate.

You just thought it was to protect Muslims because you were ignorant of Scottish religious issues, which to be fair, many people do not. There is a very distinctive attitude here, resulting in what happened to the Muslim suicide bomber attackers at Glasgow Airport;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ism.features11

"This is Glasgow. We'll just set aboot ye...."I got a kick in," he said. "Other passengers were getting kicks in. The flames were going in two directions ... You know when you're younger, you put a can of Lynx [aftershave] on the fire, and it's like a flame thrower." And: "Me and other folk were just trying to get the boot in and some other guy banjoed him". (To banjo is Scottish slang for to hit someone as hard as you can.)"
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:17 AM   #1027
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Hang on a moment. When did we establish that protecting people from religiously motivated assault was a bad thing unless they're Christian?
First, we're not talking about assault. I'm pretty sure everyone understands that assault is a crime and the police don't want us to to do it. The poster talks of 'intolerance' and 'hate', which are not physical attacks but modes of thought and expression.

Second, it's clear that this poster is targeted at Christians. If you don't want to see it you don't, but numerous Christian groups believe the same thing. If the poster was designed to protect them don't you think they'd be thankful as opposed to considering legal action against it?

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
(Oh, and by the way, there's a long history of orthodox Jews being singled out for persecution based on their religious dress. Did you want that revived, or are you OK with posters telling people not to do it?)
The rise in anti-Semitism has come about in no small part through Islamic immigration and radicalisation. Anti-semitism is now embraced by the leader of the UK's second largest mainstream party who courts the Muslim vote. The idea that this poster is protecting Jews would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. It's cheerleading for the very group from which anti-Semitism mostly stems.

Originally Posted by Medhi Hassan
It pains me to have to admit this but anti-Semitism isnít just tolerated in some sections of the British Muslim community; itís routine and commonplace. Any Muslims reading this article Ė if they are honest with themselves Ė will know instantly what I am referring to. Itís our dirty little secret. You could call it the banality of Muslim anti-Semitism.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:22 AM   #1028
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I was only showing you examples of religious dress seen in Scotland. I have not looked at any crime figures for which religions are at the receiving end of the most/least amount of hate.

The message is any religious dress should be tolerated and not cause the wearer to be the subject of hate.
The fact is, and you and I both know it, that the people who routinely walk around in religious dress are Muslim females. Forget your dog collars and your habits and your sashes, that is what this poster is referring to.

And before you say it, no, I absolutely do not support people attacking anybody, for the way they dress or any other stupid reason. That is not what this poster is saying. It's effectively putting religious criticism on the wrong side of the law. If you show 'intolerance' for religious dress, or religious thought, then we'll come for you. That's the message. Not, "If you punch a woman in a hijab we'll come for you," which is expected and desired by all right-minded people.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You just thought it was to protect Muslims because you were ignorant of Scottish religious issues, which to be fair, many people do not. There is a very distinctive attitude here, resulting in what happened to the Muslim suicide bomber attackers at Glasgow Airport;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ism.features11

"This is Glasgow. We'll just set aboot ye...."I got a kick in," he said. "Other passengers were getting kicks in. The flames were going in two directions ... You know when you're younger, you put a can of Lynx [aftershave] on the fire, and it's like a flame thrower." And: "Me and other folk were just trying to get the boot in and some other guy banjoed him". (To banjo is Scottish slang for to hit someone as hard as you can.)"
I have no doubt that the Scottish have no time for terrorists, just like the English, but we're not talking about terrorists here, we're talking about what is essentially blasphemy law.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:22 AM   #1029
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So it's your contention that this Clockwork Orange looking gaggle comprise those who the poster alleged 'have their lives made a misery because of their religious dress'? Plus ministers in dog collars and nuns wearing habits. Are you asserting that these are the people who are being actively protected by this message?
This is the kind of filthy, disgusting bigotry against Orangemen we once had to endure in the UK. Thankfully, after the posters went up, it's a thing of the past...

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Old 11th October 2018, 07:23 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have not looked at any crime figures for which religions are at the receiving end of the most/least amount of hate.
It's not an exact science - the report is based on an analyst's judgement, but this report (page 18) indicates that that over 80% of incidents are linked to Roman Catholic or Protestant victims. Islam is 17%, which is slightly telling given that Muslims (in 2011 census) make up only 1.4% of the population.

Of course, the religion of the perpatrator is not recorded, as that would be too helpful, but also very problematic I would imagine.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:24 AM   #1031
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Second, it's clear that this poster is targeted at Christians. If you don't want to see it you don't, but numerous Christian groups believe the same thing. If the poster was designed to protect them don't you think they'd be thankful as opposed to considering legal action against it?
The series of posters is aimed at bigots, disablists, transphobes, homophobes and racists. You and the groups you reference are the ones who insist that this set of epithets uniquely describes Christians; the rest of us are prepared to acccept that actually it simply describes bigots, disablists, transphobes, homophobes and racists.

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Old 11th October 2018, 07:25 AM   #1032
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
This is the kind of filthy, disgusting bigotry against Orangemen we once had to endure in the UK. Thankfully, after the posters went up, it's a thing of the past...

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I AGREE
I presume you're being sarcastic...
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:27 AM   #1033
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
it's clear that this poster is targeted at Christians.
No, it isn't clear at all. That's what you have decided to take away from it. That's what some Christian groups have decided to take away from it. But that's not what it says, and simply repeating it does not make it any more true.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:30 AM   #1034
baron
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The series of posters is aimed at bigots, disablists, transphobes, homophobes and racists. You and the groups you reference are the ones who insist that this set of epithets uniquely describes Christians; the rest of us are prepared to acccept that actually it simply describes bigots, disablists, transphobes, homophobes and racists.

Dave
Who is this 'rest of us'? A few apologists on a forum or the numerous Christian groups who are taking action against the originators of the poster?

And again, the hypocrisy is formidable. I bet that at any time, in any one of the current threads in the Religion forum, there are be several recent posts displaying the alleged bigotry and hate for which you are quite happy for people to be arrested. Yet they pass without comment. How is this so?
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:31 AM   #1035
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Might I refer the assembled company to my post #554.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:33 AM   #1036
baron
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
No, it isn't clear at all. That's what you have decided to take away from it. That's what some Christian groups have decided to take away from it. But that's not what it says, and simply repeating it does not make it any more true.
Sure. You know, there's a poster on this forum who persistently talks soft and always wriggles out of an argument; some say he's the most illogical poster on Earth.

Whoa! What gave you the idea I was talking about you? Of course I wasn't, you're jumping to conclusions.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:35 AM   #1037
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
This is the kind of filthy, disgusting bigotry against Orangemen we once had to endure in the UK. Thankfully, after the posters went up, it's a thing of the past...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
EVen without clicking the link, I knew what that would be!
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:36 AM   #1038
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Might I refer the assembled company to my post #554.
Because it's a forum where people make their own decision whether or not to post. Nobody gives a damn whether you like it or not.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:59 AM   #1039
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Might I refer the assembled company to my post #554.
Because if we don't, we give a free space to bigots, racists and white supremacists, and such pond slime doesn't deserve free space anywhere.
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:05 AM   #1040
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Because if we don't, we give a free space to bigots, racists and white supremacists, and such pond slime doesn't deserve free space anywhere.
I appreciate that, and the efforts of yourself and others.

However, once the subject has demonstrated an absolute inability to connect with reality, then it's just banging your head against a brick wall that's never going to move.

When the simple answers to simple questions are not given, then you can't force the man to be reasonable and logical. It's like arguing with a two year old, pointless, frustrating and nothing's going to change.
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