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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Christine Blasey Ford , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees , Trump controversies

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Old 10th October 2018, 11:36 AM   #3121
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh well, it seems that we have reached the scream into the void stage of the "discussion' where the dead-enders conclude Kavanaugh is a 'rapist' despite the fact that there was ZERO evidence at all and in fact the aggrieved party Ford never made such a claim.

say, maybe Hillary Clinton can make her forest available for the folks to scream and cry in, because:

ELECTIONS MATTER.

Congratulations to our newest Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court!
This is not true. There was the testimony of Dr. Ford. I understand that you think that this evidence is flawed, but it is evidence nonetheless. And personally, I found it far more believable than Kavanaugh's run-out-the-clock DARVO act.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:37 AM   #3122
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
FBI director Wray confirms white house limited investigation

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...e-limit-888667

I've asked this multiple times already in this thread but the Trumpets don't seem to want to address it. Why did Trump lie to the American people and claim the FBI had free reign to investigate?
Probably because it looks like you're JAQing off.

Trump lies. What's to address?

If you have conclusions and reasoning to support it, go ahead and make your case any time. No need to try to corral other people into whatever performance piece you're scripting in your head.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:47 AM   #3123
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
It says that the standard process was used. The standard process is that the white house determines the scope and who can and can't be interviewed. We know the white house limited it because numerous people with information weren't talked to as well as Ford and Kavanaugh and the white house deputy press secretary said as much in a link I provided earlier. Wray admits it was limited in scope and that the scope is determined by the white house though he didn't provide specifics on the limits.

So for the fourth time. Why did Trump lie to the American people about the FBI having free reign to interview who they wanted?
The highlighted part is not supported by the actual testimony, as I have pointed out before.

Further, it appears that what Trump stated was:

"The FBI as you know is all over, talking to everybody ... " Trump told reporters Saturday in Washington on his way to a rally in West Virginia. "They have been all over it already. They have free rein to do whatever they have to do."

So what did they have to do?

"I've ordered the FBI to conduct a supplemental investigation to update Judge Kavanaugh's file," Trump said in a statement. "As the Senate has requested, this update must be limited in scope and completed in less than one week."

What did the Senate request:

The Judiciary Committee officially requested the FBI investigation, saying it should probe "current credible allegations" against Kavanaugh, and Republicans said it would be up to the FBI to decide what allegations are considered credible.

As such, rather than saying the FBI did not talk to certain people because they were instructed not to, the natural conclusion is that the FBI chose not to.

QED.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:51 AM   #3124
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
... Why did Trump lie to the American people ...
Because he is the biggest liar in presidential history.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:15 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Because he is the biggest liar in presidential history.
The most obvious, perhaps.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:33 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Be more open minded. People lie for all sorts of reasons. If you include mistakes and delusions there are even more possible explanations for false testimony.
I would be more open minded if Kavanaugh had not clearly and demonstrably lied so often.

I would be more open minded if Kavanaugh had shown restraint and something closer to judicial temperament. (I am reminded of Hilary Clinton testifying before the House Select Committee on Benghazi without once raising her voice, rolling her eyes, slamming the desk or showing dissent despite eleven hours of intense questioning)

I would be more open minded if the White House had not deliberately withheld his judicial paper trail.

I would be more open minded if he had not characterized "can't remember that happening" as "that didn't happen" - this is Witness Testimony 101, a first year Law student understands this, so I would expect a Federal Judge to do so.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 10th October 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:48 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It wasn't an interview at that point. Furthermore, he wasn't playing to you. You weren't his target audience. Your opinion didn't matter. Among the people whose opinion he needed to sway, his performance worked. You may not like that, but objectively speaking, successfully playing to the audience that matters isn't disqualifying for any job.
But the people 'hiring' him (and who he had to impress) are not the only people he will ostensibly and nominally work for. A majority of his 'employers' didn't want him.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:53 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It wasn't an interview at that point. Furthermore, he wasn't playing to you. You weren't his target audience. Your opinion didn't matter. Among the people whose opinion he needed to sway, his performance worked. You may not like that, but objectively speaking, successfully playing to the audience that matters isn't disqualifying for any job.
I see. So that fact that he got the job is proof of the fact that he should have gotten the job.

Glad to see where you stand.

I won't be replying on this again.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:01 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I see. So that fact that he got the job is proof of the fact that he should have gotten the job.
No. It's proof that his performance in the hearing wasn't disqualifying. Improve your reading comprehension.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:02 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
But the people 'hiring' him (and who he had to impress) are not the only people he will ostensibly and nominally work for. A majority of his 'employers' didn't want him.
Lucky for him, Supreme Court judges are not elected by popular vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:04 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lucky for him, Supreme Court judges are not elected by popular vote.
Indeed.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:19 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably because it looks like you're JAQing off.

Trump lies. What's to address?

If you have conclusions and reasoning to support it, go ahead and make your case any time. No need to try to corral other people into whatever performance piece you're scripting in your head.


The conclusions and reasoning has been addressed by others numerous times in this thread. My point is that the Trumpets like to do just about anything other than acknowledge those conclusions and reasons.

Or like you, they pretend it's no biggie when Republicans lie about important things like FBI investigations or Russian collusion, or under oath during senate hearings.

They lied? Aw Shucks. Now what about those dastardly democrats!
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:22 PM   #3133
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post


The conclusions and reasoning has been addressed by others numerous times in this thread. My point is that the Trumpets like to do just about anything other than acknowledge those conclusions and reasons.

Or like you, they pretend it's no biggie when Republicans lie about important things like FBI investigations or Russian collusion, or under oath during senate hearings.

They lied? Aw Shucks. Now what about those dastardly democrats!
Well, I cited the actual quotes and statements which show that what you said he said is not accurate.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:59 PM   #3134
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I would be more open minded if Kavanaugh had not clearly and demonstrably lied so often.

I would be more open minded if Kavanaugh had shown restraint and something closer to judicial temperament. (I am reminded of Hilary Clinton testifying before the House Select Committee on Benghazi without once raising her voice, rolling her eyes, slamming the desk or showing dissent despite eleven hours of intense questioning)

I would be more open minded if the White House had not deliberately withheld his judicial paper trail.

I would be more open minded if he had not characterized "can't remember that happening" as "that didn't happen" - this is Witness Testimony 101, a first year Law student understands this, so I would expect a Federal Judge to do so.
Perhaps it wasn't clear that my post referred to the possibility of false testimony by people other than Kavanaugh.
Your assertion was that only Kavanaugh had a motivation to lie. I'm saying you should consider the possibility that others also may have had a motivation to lie, or that there could be other explanations for false testimony.


You cannot reasonably infer that Ms. Ford must have been telling the truth based on the fact that you cannot come up with a motivation for her to lie.
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Old 10th October 2018, 04:31 PM   #3135
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
None of that matters, I don't like his views on the 4th amendment but I don't need to claim he's a rapist or attempted rapist with little to no evidence to not like the guy.
One of the really awful things about introducing the personal attacks at the last minute was that it guaranteed that those attacks and Kavanaugh's response to them would dominate the news coverage, people's opinions, and people's memories of the whole confirmation process. There are important issues about the role of the courts that could have been addressed, but that doesn't make for quality television.

However, I would remind people that there have been three highly contentious sets of hearings in my memory (Bork, Thomas, and Kavanaugh) and the only time the attempt to block a nominee actually succeeded was the one where the objections had nothing to do with personal attacks.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:07 PM   #3136
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Perhaps it wasn't clear that my post referred to the possibility of false testimony by people other than Kavanaugh.
Your assertion was that only Kavanaugh had a motivation to lie. I'm saying you should consider the possibility that others also may have had a motivation to lie, or that there could be other explanations for false testimony.


You cannot reasonably infer that Ms. Ford must have been telling the truth based on the fact that you cannot come up with a motivation for her to lie.
People lie when

🔲 They have something to hide, e.g. one or more bad acts.
🔲 The truth might be embarrassing or show them in a bad light
🔲 They have something to gain

You may be able to come up with lots of other specific reasons why people lie, but they will all fall into these three general categories

Only two people were testifying in that hearing

1. Brett Kavanaugh, who for me, checks all three boxes.
2. Dr. Christine Ford, who for me, does not check any of the boxes.

I am pretty sure I know who was lying, and it was not Dr. Ford.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:14 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
One of the really awful things about introducing the personal attacks at the last minute was that it guaranteed that those attacks and Kavanaugh's response to them would dominate the news coverage, people's opinions, and people's memories of the whole confirmation process. There are important issues about the role of the courts that could have been addressed, but that doesn't make for quality television.

However, I would remind people that there have been three highly contentious sets of hearings in my memory (Bork, Thomas, and Kavanaugh) and the only time the attempt to block a nominee actually succeeded was the one where the objections had nothing to do with personal attacks.
Q: When does an accusation become a "personal attack"?

A: When you can prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that those accusations were completely false.

That did not happen with either the Anita Hill accusations against Clarence Thomas, or the Christine Ford accusations against Brett Kavanaugh.

I still believe both women were telling the absolute truth about what happened to them, and that they have correctly identified the perpetrators.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:34 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Stick a fork in her, she done.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
it was posted earlier.

Lets put a Ford on the Barbie!
I find your choice of language fascinating. Any reason you are advocating poking or barbecuing a woman who is no longer relevant anyways? It's over. You won. Now you want to commit violent acts against someone.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:42 PM   #3139
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I find your choice of language fascinating. Any reason you are advocating poking or barbecuing a woman who is no longer relevant anyways? It's over. You won. Now you want to commit violent acts against someone.
oh jesus

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Old 10th October 2018, 05:57 PM   #3140
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Kavanaugh's got about 15 misconduct complaints filed against him, all stemming from issues or actions related to the confirmation hearings (not from his time as a judge prior to that).

Chief Justice Roberts transfers Kavanaugh misconduct complaints to 10th Circuit
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:13 PM   #3141
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
People lie when

🔲 They have something to hide, e.g. one or more bad acts.
🔲 The truth might be embarrassing or show them in a bad light
🔲 They have something to gain

You may be able to come up with lots of other specific reasons why people lie, but they will all fall into these three general categories

Only two people were testifying in that hearing

1. Brett Kavanaugh, who for me, checks all three boxes.
2. Dr. Christine Ford, who for me, does not check any of the boxes.

I am pretty sure I know who was lying, and it was not Dr. Ford.
(emphasis added)

Perhaps if you knew her better, she might check one or more boxes. Also, you have left out mistakes and delusions as possibilities.

Your sense of certainty is not evidence.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:18 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Q: When does an accusation become a "personal attack"?

A: When you can prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that those accusations were completely false.

That did not happen with either the Anita Hill accusations against Clarence Thomas, or the Christine Ford accusations against Brett Kavanaugh.

I still believe both women were telling the absolute truth about what happened to them, and that they have correctly identified the perpetrators.
An accusation becomes a personal attack when it is directed at a person, as opposed to their performance on the job or some other objective criterion.

e.g. Bill Cosby's comedy is not funny because he is a rapist. That is a personal attack, because it does not deal with the quality of the comedy, but with the person of the comedian. The accusation that Brett Kavanaugh was an attempted rapist at age 17 is an attack against him, as a person, not against the quality of his work as a judge.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:30 PM   #3143
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I'm pretty sure that keeping a conservative justice off the Supreme Court represents a substantial gain for a lot of progressives.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:31 PM   #3144
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(emphasis added)

Perhaps if you knew her better, she might check one or more boxes.
If there were dozens of people coming forward offering to be interviewed by the FBI to tell them about her bad character, that would be a problem for her, and for my ability to take her at her word... but that has not happened. Not a single person who knew her in the past, came forward to offer to tell their story of her bad character to the FBI... not a single one. Those who have come forward have only had good things to say about her.

Can you say the same thing about the 40+ people who came forward to tell the FBI about Kavanaugh; about his bad character and about how he lied to the Senate Judiciary Committee?

Perhaps if you knew Kavanaugh better (as those people clearly did), you might have a different opinion of him.

(see how that works?)

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Also, you have left out mistakes and delusions as possibilities.
You are confusing an untruth with a lie. They are not necessarily the same thing.

Delusion is not a motivation to lie
Being mistaken is not a motivation to lie

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your sense of certainty is not evidence.
Neither is yours.... (again, see how that works?)
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:48 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
her, and for my ability to take her at her word... but that has not happened. Not a single person who knew her in the past, came forward to offer to tell their story of her bad character to the FBI... not a single one.
You don't know that. The statements made as part of the extended investigation were, and remain, sealed.

At least one person, her ex boyfriend, did actually come forward to say bad things about her character.

Media people will continue to investigate, and will publish things in the future. I'm not sure that's a good thing, but it will happen. We can judge more when we have more data.

Regardless, that's not really the point. The real point is that you have declared that she has no reason to lie, but that is a statement you cannot make based on the evidence available to you.

And, once again, you leave out the possibilities of mistakes or delusions.

Quote:
Can you say the same thing about the 40+ people who came forward to tell the FBI about Kavanaugh; about his bad character and about how he lied to the Senate Judiciary Committee?

Perhaps if you knew Kavanaugh better (as those people clearly did), you might have a different opinion of him.

(see how that works?)
You seem to be suggesting that if he lied about anything, then she must be telling the truth about everything. If so, that's a fallacious statement. If not, I can't understand why you think his misleading statements about beer consumption are relevant to whether or not he assaulted Ms. Ford when they were in high school.

Quote:
You are confusing an untruth with a lie. They are not necessarily the same thing.

Delusion is not a motivation to lie
Being mistaken is not a motivation to lie
You are right about one thing. I must not be getting how this works. To me, it seems like you are saying that she had no motivation for lying, therefore she is not lying, therefore what she says must be true. Do I understand your argument?

If so, there are several things wrong with it. First, you do not know her motivations, so your claim that she has no motivation to lie cannot be verified. Second, even if she is not lying, it does not mean that what she says is true.

Or, perhaps, what you are saying is that since Kavanaugh lied about one thing (beer, or yearbooks, or something), his statements about a different thing (assaulting Christine Blasey Ford) cannot be trusted. You are surely correct. They cannot be trusted. We must weigh those words against the available evidence, being skeptical about any protestations of innocence.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:39 PM   #3146
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
oh jesus

Does Jesus approve of barbecuing Dr Ford?
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:47 PM   #3147
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So, how did Kavanaugh do on his first day on the job? He was disrespectful...

Quote:
On his first day of arguments, during just one case—Nielsen v. Preap—Kavanaugh tried to speak at the same time as other justices—despite the tradition of new justices deferring to established justices—and interrupted each of the lawyers twice.
...and apparently interested in arguing the case himself.

Quote:
Kavanaugh didn’t so much ask questions as make statements. The types of statements that should have come from the government’s attorney, not a justice. When he did ask questions—well, here’s an example of a “question”:

Quote:
Is that presumption based on what we think was really going through Congress's mind at the time or is it based on a constitutional overlay, because what was really going through Congress's time [sic] in 1996 was harshness on this topic. Is that not right?
Not a particularly confidence boosting beginning, in short.
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Old 11th October 2018, 01:34 AM   #3148
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
People lie when

🔲 They have something to hide, e.g. one or more bad acts.
🔲 The truth might be embarrassing or show them in a bad light
🔲 They have something to gain

You may be able to come up with lots of other specific reasons why people lie, but they will all fall into these three general categories

Only two people were testifying in that hearing

1. Brett Kavanaugh, who for me, checks all three boxes.
2. Dr. Christine Ford, who for me, does not check any of the boxes.

I am pretty sure I know who was lying, and it was not Dr. Ford.
Yes, because the woman who derails the Supreme Court nomination of the guy who is about to turn the US into the Handmaid's Tale, has absolutely nothing to gain.
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Old 11th October 2018, 01:37 AM   #3149
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
So, how did Kavanaugh do on his first day on the job? He was disrespectful...



...and apparently interested in arguing the case himself.



Not a particularly confidence boosting beginning, in short.
And just think, he's only got about 12,000 more days to learn the job!
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:07 AM   #3150
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
So, how did Kavanaugh do on his first day on the job? He was disrespectful...



...and apparently interested in arguing the case himself.



Not a particularly confidence boosting beginning, in short.
LOL! Daily Kos and their long history of being knowledgeable commentators about the Supreme Court! A Judge interrupted a lawyer? Oh my gosh it must be every day in every single court in America!

That is fantastic.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:14 AM   #3151
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
LOL! Daily Kos and their long history of being knowledgeable commentators about the Supreme Court! A Judge interrupted a lawyer? Oh my gosh it must be every day in every single court in America!

That is fantastic.
"Quick! I must disagree with this poster!"
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:25 AM   #3152
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Quick! I must disagree with this poster!"


Folks, that is either the single most ironic post in the history of this forum, or his most honest.

In any event, that post is what dreams are made of.

Fantastic
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:48 AM   #3153
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post


Folks, that is either the single most ironic post in the history of this forum, or his most honest.

In any event, that post is what dreams are made of.

Fantastic
"Quick! I must make it seem like something directed at me is really directed at the person posting it!"

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Old 11th October 2018, 10:38 AM   #3154
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Lol
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:14 AM   #3155
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
oh jesus

: rolleyes :: rolleyes :: rolleyes :: rolleyes :: rolleyes :: rolleyes :: rolleyes :: rolleyes :
ProTip: Out of respect for the faithful who post here you should probably use proper capitalization when referring to their Lord and Savior.

It's RollEyes.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:23 AM   #3156
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
ProTip: Out of respect for the faithful who post here you should probably use proper capitalization when referring to their Lord and Savior.
Everyone knows that Bernie Bros are godless communists.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:04 PM   #3157
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Q: When does an accusation become a "personal attack"?

A: When you can prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that those accusations were completely false.

That did not happen with either the Anita Hill accusations against Clarence Thomas, or the Christine Ford accusations against Brett Kavanaugh.

I still believe both women were telling the absolute truth about what happened to them, and that they have correctly identified the perpetrators.
Mmmmm...a true believer
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:44 PM   #3158
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
ProTip: Out of respect for the faithful who post here you should probably use proper capitalization when referring to their Lord and Savior.

It's RollEyes.




WHOOOSH!!!!

(That was the sound of your comment going right over TBD's head!)
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Old 11th October 2018, 10:31 PM   #3159
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Anyone else thinking if we had elected the lying, drunken crook POTUS candidate in 2016 we wouldn't have a lying, drunken crook sitting on the SCOTUS in 2018?

Just curious.

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Old 12th October 2018, 12:06 AM   #3160
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
An accusation becomes a personal attack when it is directed at a person, as opposed to their performance on the job or some other objective criterion.

e.g. Bill Cosby's comedy is not funny because he is a rapist. That is a personal attack, because it does not deal with the quality of the comedy, but with the person of the comedian. The accusation that Brett Kavanaugh was an attempted rapist at age 17 is an attack against him, as a person, not against the quality of his work as a judge.
However character is a matter to consider in appointing a judge so in his case it is not a "personal attack" in the sense you were using it.
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