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Tags Amy Adams , Ellie France , Mark Lundy , murder cases , New Zealand cases

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Old 27th February 2015, 04:57 PM   #241
Charlie Wilkes
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
I agree - the simplest explanation for the computer shutdown at 10.52pm is that Christine Lundy shut it down. The alternatives offered by the Crown do not make sense.

The manipulation of the date/time is ridiculous; even for someone experienced in IT it would be difficult to ensure there was no trace of the manipulation. To posit that Lundy was smart enough and had planned carefully enough to do this is fanciful, given that he seemingly couldn't figure out a way to cover up his fuel usage for the trip to PN and back.

Reading up about the KAK virus, it appears that it will attempt to shut a computer down, but only on the 1st of every month, at 5:00pm, and only once you've responded to a pop-up message (so someone would have had to been around to do that manually). Also the clock would have to be out by nearly 3 days to shut the computer down at 10.52pm on the 29th, and that wasn't found to be the case. So I think that theory can be discounted.

It's hard to imagine a non-Lundy killer bothering to shut down the computer either, either before or after the act. For what purpose? To me that implies detailed pre-planning, and I see very few people being able to make the mental link between computer activity and the victim being alive - certainly not in the heat of the event. I'm not sure Lundy is the type of guy who could have made that link either as part of a grand murder plan, given the fuel usage discrepancy and (if it did do it) keeping the shirt that he used during the murder in the back of his car.

So I lean towards the simplest answer, that she followed a normal routine and was in bed around 11.
We agree, but I do see the possibility that the killer(s) turned off the computer along with lights, after committing the crime, so no one would notice lights on late at night.

I read these murders as cold and rational. They weren't necessarily the work of a professional killer, but they easily could have been.
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:17 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You;re right that that's what the police did, although deciding it was Lundy was easy - he gave the game away himself.

The problem for the police is that they assumed they would find the evidence, but he outsmarted them.

There is no 3 from where I sit. Even if the evidence exonerates Lundy, it only exonerates him from being at the scene.

Also, I don't think the cops planted evidence, but when you a couple of buckets of blood and 28 cops walking through the house, contamination is almost a given.



Ok, I'll approach that angle then.

1 No similar crime has ever been committed in NZ - except by the partner or a mentally ill person.

2 It was not done by an opportunistic criminal or burglar.

Proof for those propositions is the clear planning that went into the crime. The perpetrator would have needed to plan to do a massive amount of cleaning and was almost certainly wearing a total body protection suit. That planning utterly precludes it being a crime of chance.

3 1 & 2 being correct, we are left with a pre-meditated murder which requires meticulous action afterwards, hence there must be a very clear motive for it.

Who else would have had a motive?

The kid wasn't being molested (at least no physical damage was found, because that was top of the list for motives - the initial thought is that Lundy was doing his daughter) the wife wasn't having an affair, and there is no chance a fraud was being perpetrated with outside parties. While Lundy's investment was fairly large, the purchase is the only large transaction and the rest of their business is petty $200 stuff.
I agree with your assessment but not your conclusion, especially as Lundy's motive is wholly unsatisfactory. It's not enough to say "it could only be Lundy" and then jump through hoops to break a good alibi and convict him on no evidence.

I think there's something we know nothing about, which would explain the crime.
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:26 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You;re right that that's what the police did, although deciding it was Lundy was easy - he gave the game away himself.
How?

Quote:
The problem for the police is that they assumed they would find the evidence, but he outsmarted them.
So, no matter who outsmarted the police, Lundy is the fall guy?

Quote:
There is no 3 from where I sit. Even if the evidence exonerates Lundy, it only exonerates him from being at the scene.
So now you're saying and accomplice/hitman did it?

If an accomplice/hitman did do the crime, then you may not have to actually find the accomplice/hitman in person, but you would certainly have to prove that one was involved, e.g. a money trail, telephone calls, emails, etc. The rules of evidence do not allow the prosecution to simply say, "oh he's got an alibi so an accomplice/htman must have done it for him".

Quote:
2 It was not done by an opportunistic criminal or burglar.

Proof for those propositions is the clear planning that went into the crime. The perpetrator would have needed to plan to do a massive amount of cleaning and was almost certainly wearing a total body protection suit. That planning utterly precludes it being a crime of chance..
I disagree with this entirely. The only proof of a "massive cleanup" is if Lundy actually did it. This is called bootstrapping....Police think Lundy did it, and if he did, he would have needed to do a massive clean up job, thereby proving he did it! This leaves out the possibility that a random person did it, and if we don't have that person, then we would have no evidence of clean up taking place.

It only looks like planning if Lundy actually did it. What if this was a hit on Lundy, and they had planned to kill both the Lundy adults, but hadn't counted on Mark being away that night. Suddenly, the meticulous planning aspect goes out the door!!
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:39 PM   #244
Hard Cheese
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
We agree, but I do see the possibility that the killer(s) turned off the computer along with lights, after committing the crime, so no one would notice lights on late at night.
The lights, yes, the computer - not so sure. The killer(s) must have done a proper orderly shutdown to get a 10.52pm shutdown time recorded in the logs. It'd be simpler just turning the computer off at the wall, no light from the computer, and no chance of getting blood or DNA material on it in the process. In fact, if they'd just flicked it off at the wall, there would be no record of when it was turned off.

Last edited by Hard Cheese; 27th February 2015 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:52 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
the wife wasn't having an affair
I wouldn't even be so sure of that one (ack, still can't post a URL )

From the NZ Herald, 13/10/2013:

Quote:
A real estate agent who killed himself five days after Christine and Amber Lundy were murdered is on a list of 60 suspects police are being urged to reinvestigate.
(...)
Auckland businessman Geoff Levick, who campaigned to free Lundy, said there was a list of 60 suspects, 55 of whom had been ruled out by police because they were working on the assumption that the time of death was 7pm.
(...)
Local real estate agent Sheridan Martin Murphy, 49, was treated as a suspect by police, one of 60 people on that list. He committed suicide at his home in Juliana Place, Palmerston North, on September 4, 2000, just days after the mother and daughter were hacked to death in their Karamea Cres home.

Sources close to the case said there were widespread rumours in Palmerston North that Murphy, a family man and racehorse-owner, was close to Christine. But friends and family expressed surprise and anger that the finger had been pointed at Murphy, describing him as an "absolute gentleman".

Racing journalist Ron Gurney was surprised that he was being linked to the case. "All sorts of rumours were going around that he would take his own life when things seemed to be tickety-boo."

His widow, Megan Murphy, said yesterday: "I have no comment to make here."

Circumstantial evidence presented at the 2002 High Court murder trial in Palmerston North suggested Christine Lundy may have been having an affair.
(...)
Geoff Levick said police weren't showing a great deal of enthusiasm for "looking elsewhere".
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:20 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
The lights, yes, the computer - not so sure. The killer(s) must have done a proper orderly shutdown to get a 10.52pm shutdown time recorded in the logs. It'd be simpler just turning the computer off at the wall, no light from the computer, and no chance of getting blood or DNA material on it in the process. In fact, if they'd just flicked it off at the wall, there would be no record of when it was turned off.
Not quite right. There could be a record of the last time something was entered in the "Event Log" (assuming a Windows 95/98/2000/ME computer).
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Old 27th February 2015, 07:29 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not quite right. There could be a record of the last time something was entered in the "Event Log" (assuming a Windows 95/98/2000/ME computer).
Yeah, it depends how regularly events were being logged (if any were logged) between 3:39pm, when there was evidence of Outlook being used, and the shutdown time.

Assuming there is no clock trickery involved, I can't see why the killer would bother shutting down the machine if they wanted to kill the light from the screen. I'd just flick it off at the wall. It couldn't be Lundy doing the shutdown at 10.52pm anyway, because he's in Petone at 11.45pm.
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Old 27th February 2015, 10:31 PM   #248
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Think it is pretty obvious, like Bain he did it, but if they can prove otherwise good on them
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Old 27th February 2015, 10:52 PM   #249
Charlie Wilkes
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
The lights, yes, the computer - not so sure. The killer(s) must have done a proper orderly shutdown to get a 10.52pm shutdown time recorded in the logs. It'd be simpler just turning the computer off at the wall, no light from the computer, and no chance of getting blood or DNA material on it in the process. In fact, if they'd just flicked it off at the wall, there would be no record of when it was turned off.
It seems most likely the killer(s) struck just after the woman shut down the computer and went to bed. I don't want that to become a rigid axiom in my thinking, however. There is too much we don't know.
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Old 27th February 2015, 11:07 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Yeah, it depends how regularly events were being logged (if any were logged) between 3:39pm, when there was evidence of Outlook being used, and the shutdown time.

Assuming there is no clock trickery involved, I can't see why the killer would bother shutting down the machine if they wanted to kill the light from the screen. I'd just flick it off at the wall. It couldn't be Lundy doing the shutdown at 10.52pm anyway, because he's in Petone at 11.45pm.
Also, computer/clock trickery in shuttng down the computer would leave a record in the registry if either the Task Scheduler or some software was used.
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Old 27th February 2015, 11:11 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Think it is pretty obvious, like Bain he did it, but if they can prove otherwise good on them
Fortunately, they don't have to prove otherwise; just cast doubt on the crown case, which doesn't look too hard.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So, no matter who outsmarted the police, Lundy is the fall guy?

So now you're saying and accomplice/hitman did it?
Only if the timing is impossible for Lundy. Like I said, I haven't followed the evidence.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If an accomplice/hitman did do the crime, then you may not have to actually find the accomplice/hitman in person, but you would certainly have to prove that one was involved, e.g. a money trail, telephone calls, emails, etc. The rules of evidence do not allow the prosecution to simply say, "oh he's got an alibi so an accomplice/htman must have done it for him".
So obvious it wasn't worth the time it took you to type it.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I disagree with this entirely. The only proof of a "massive cleanup" is if Lundy actually did it. This is called bootstrapping....Police think Lundy did it, and if he did, he would have needed to do a massive clean up job, thereby proving he did it! This leaves out the possibility that a random person did it, and if we don't have that person, then we would have no evidence of clean up taking place.
Yes they would. there would have been a trail of blood all the way down the street. We're talking about a massive amount of blood & tissue and there was no sign of it outside.

It is impossible that an assailant left the scene without cleaning up to a high degree first.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It only looks like planning if Lundy actually did it. What if this was a hit on Lundy, and they had planned to kill both the Lundy adults, but hadn't counted on Mark being away that night. Suddenly, the meticulous planning aspect goes out the door!!
Doesn't make any sense at all. No motive + if that much planning went on, they would have made quite sure he was there, because he would obviously have pointed in their direction.

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
I agree with your assessment but not your conclusion, especially as Lundy's motive is wholly unsatisfactory. It's not enough to say "it could only be Lundy" and then jump through hoops to break a good alibi and convict him on no evidence.

I think there's something we know nothing about, which would explain the crime.
What's unsatisfactory about Lundy's motive? He was financially dead and probably counted on an enormous amount of sympathy instead of murder charges. He sure as hell played for it.

His alibi interests me - I wasn't aware of the alleged - and fairly reliable-sounding sighting of Lundy on the Petone foreshore.

With that and the phone calls and the hooker it's almost like he planned an alibi.

On that basis, I'm going to say it was a paid accomplice, but as I keep saying, the cops were so in love with him as a suspect they didn't dig deeply enough at the time and it's far too late now. They thought he'd crack in custody and never looked likely. Underestimated the fat man. They knew he'd done it, but they thought they had him pegged psychologically.

Fail.

More power to him for getting away with it. He's also neatly recreated himself in jail. Quite a trimmed-down, normal-looking bloke now.

Between him, Baino and whichever of the Kahuis killed the twins, the cops might need to look at their procedures.

I hope he has a happy life - he's certainly going to be able to afford enough hookers. Poor man; wife & child murdered most foul, then banged up for it... Must deserve millions in compo.
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Old 27th February 2015, 11:18 PM   #252
Charlie Wilkes
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
I wouldn't even be so sure of that one (ack, still can't post a URL )

From the NZ Herald, 13/10/2013:

Quote:
Quote:
A real estate agent who killed himself five days after Christine and Amber Lundy were murdered is on a list of 60 suspects police are being urged to reinvestigate.
(...)
Auckland businessman Geoff Levick, who campaigned to free Lundy, said there was a list of 60 suspects, 55 of whom had been ruled out by police because they were working on the assumption that the time of death was 7pm.
(...)
Local real estate agent Sheridan Martin Murphy, 49, was treated as a suspect by police, one of 60 people on that list. He committed suicide at his home in Juliana Place, Palmerston North, on September 4, 2000, just days after the mother and daughter were hacked to death in their Karamea Cres home.

Sources close to the case said there were widespread rumours in Palmerston North that Murphy, a family man and racehorse-owner, was close to Christine. But friends and family expressed surprise and anger that the finger had been pointed at Murphy, describing him as an "absolute gentleman".

Racing journalist Ron Gurney was surprised that he was being linked to the case. "All sorts of rumours were going around that he would take his own life when things seemed to be tickety-boo."

His widow, Megan Murphy, said yesterday: "I have no comment to make here."

Circumstantial evidence presented at the 2002 High Court murder trial in Palmerston North suggested Christine Lundy may have been having an affair.
(...)
Geoff Levick said police weren't showing a great deal of enthusiasm for "looking elsewhere".
This bears out my suspicion. The cops were working on the assumption of a 7 pm TOD, because Lundy was the suspect they cared about. They probably went through the motions of clearing these other people without seriously considering whether one of them might have done it.

Here is what I consider a good reference case, to illustrate how this happens:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38158659/n...eminisce-road/

The evidence against Delgado is a little thin, but I think he probably did it. But really my point is that he should have popped out from the git-go as a prime suspect, but he didn't, because cops were focused on the victim's husband as their favorite suspect.

The pesky pedants on this board would have been less congenial. So we should have the police files. We could make good use of them. What happened to the neighbor pictured in North-South, whose ping pong table is overrun with files pertaining to Lundy's case? Maybe he could provide information to us.
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Old 27th February 2015, 11:49 PM   #253
Charlie Wilkes
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
On that basis, I'm going to say it was a paid accomplice, but as I keep saying, the cops were so in love with him as a suspect they didn't dig deeply enough at the time and it's far too late now. They thought he'd crack in custody and never looked likely. Underestimated the fat man. They knew he'd done it, but they thought they had him pegged psychologically.
You sound like I did back in 1989, when I was living in NYC and the Central Park Jogger was front-page news. She was raped, left for dead, and in a few days, the police arrested five suspects. Of course they were guilty, I thought. They were committing other crimes and raising hell in the park, on that very night, weren't they? They confessed, did they not?

As far as I was concerned, they did it, end of story.

It hurt to be proved dead wrong when I was sure I was right. But it was not without benefits. It raised my level of skepticism and my standards for accepting a claim. Sometimes what seems obvious is not true.

Back in 1989, the Central Park Five were on trial. Everyone was paying attention to them, remarking on their suspicious and thuggish demeanor.

Matias Reyes was not in the news, except briefly and obscurely. He certainly was not associated with the Central Park Jogger.

Nobody knew about Matias Reyes.

Who and what do we not know about now, in connection with the murder of Lundy's wife and daughter?
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Old 28th February 2015, 01:48 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Here is what I consider a good reference case, to illustrate how this happens:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38158659/n...eminisce-road/

The evidence against Delgado is a little thin, but I think he probably did it. But really my point is that he should have popped out from the git-go as a prime suspect, but he didn't, because cops were focused on the victim's husband as their favorite suspect.
Amazing how tunnel vision works. You'd have thought the footprint on the door would have been the first thing checked against Mooney, and the possible transference of his DNA - on their old bed and via Sammy - is remarkably obvious. It occurred to me straight away that his DNA would be all over the possessions she had moved into the house.Yet it took them two years to even consider someone else.

Last edited by Hard Cheese; 28th February 2015 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 28th February 2015, 02:25 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
This bears out my suspicion. The cops were working on the assumption of a 7 pm TOD, because Lundy was the suspect they cared about. They probably went through the motions of clearing these other people without seriously considering whether one of them might have done it.

Here is what I consider a good reference case, to illustrate how this happens:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38158659/n...eminisce-road/

The evidence against Delgado is a little thin, but I think he probably did it. But really my point is that he should have popped out from the git-go as a prime suspect, but he didn't, because cops were focused on the victim's husband as their favorite suspect.

The pesky pedants on this board would have been less congenial. So we should have the police files. We could make good use of them. What happened to the neighbor pictured in North-South, whose ping pong table is overrun with files pertaining to Lundy's case? Maybe he could provide information to us.
A lot of interesting patterns in that story.

And finally the issue of motive. Investigators eventually concluded that Roger mooney had every reason “not” to kill his ex-wife. Why? Because he was a dad. If Melissa were dead, his career in the marines would crash and burn.

As you noted early in the thread Christine Lundy was an asset to Lundy, she did work that was anathema to Mark, and without it what connected the threads of fiscal survival would quickly lead to business failure.

I am interested in "assisting the police with their enquiries". Amanda Knox did it, Arthur Thomas did it. Delgado did not. Do we have any strong evidence about Lundy proactively helping?

ETA I read that story through, and the evidence looks anything but thin to me

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Old 28th February 2015, 02:58 AM   #256
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I think any one wondering around talking about doubling life insurane before she die is slightly dodge. Especially when they are in debt.

And forgive me but the over acting was pretty obvious
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Old 28th February 2015, 03:06 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think any one wondering around talking about doubling life insurane before she die is slightly dodge. Especially when they are in debt.

And forgive me but the over acting was pretty obvious
I agree there are two noted episodes, the funeral and the fast recovery from a slumping gait after being interviewed, when presuming himself out of sight. Since we know he has an alibi for physical presence and someone else delivered the blows, how does all this fit?

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Old 28th February 2015, 04:14 AM   #258
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He had a mate maybe.

There are certain times when we as kiwis know some one is talking pants. French player Bastaraud sprung to mind. I know it sounds unfounded but the dude was play acting.
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Old 28th February 2015, 05:06 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You;re right that that's what the police did, although deciding it was Lundy was easy - he gave the game away himself.

The problem for the police is that they assumed they would find the evidence, but he outsmarted them.

There is no 3 from where I sit. Even if the evidence exonerates Lundy, it only exonerates him from being at the scene.

Also, I don't think the cops planted evidence, but when you a couple of buckets of blood and 28 cops walking through the house, contamination is almost a given.



Ok, I'll approach that angle then.

1 No similar crime has ever been committed in NZ - except by the partner or a mentally ill person.

2 It was not done by an opportunistic criminal or burglar.

Proof for those propositions is the clear planning that went into the crime. The perpetrator would have needed to plan to do a massive amount of cleaning and was almost certainly wearing a total body protection suit. That planning utterly precludes it being a crime of chance.

3 1 & 2 being correct, we are left with a pre-meditated murder which requires meticulous action afterwards, hence there must be a very clear motive for it.

Who else would have had a motive?

The kid wasn't being molested (at least no physical damage was found, because that was top of the list for motives - the initial thought is that Lundy was doing his daughter) the wife wasn't having an affair, and there is no chance a fraud was being perpetrated with outside parties. While Lundy's investment was fairly large, the purchase is the only large transaction and the rest of their business is petty $200 stuff.

What evidence do you have that a massive amount of cleaning took place, and why would a body protection suit have been involved?

Again, have you seen crime scene photos? May we see them? On what is your description of the crime scene based?
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Old 28th February 2015, 08:06 AM   #260
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In vino veritas

So Murphy was a real estate agent. Did he have any connection to the vineyard deal? Of course, another explanation for his suicide would be that he was extremely saddened over Christine's death. There appears to be some discrepancy in this article about whether or not the two knew each other. One source said that Murphy was "was close to Christine." However, later in the same article: "The LundyTruth website has also raised the possibility that it was committed by a person high on methamphetamine as a "hit", and said it bore similarities to violent home invasion murders in nearby Marton and Feilding. But a close friend of Christine Lundy, Christine Lockett, said there was no need for the police to widen their investigation.

She said Sheridan Murphy's suicide was 'bizarre timing' but he had not known Christine."
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Old 28th February 2015, 11:31 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
So Murphy was a real estate agent. Did he have any connection to the vineyard deal? Of course, another explanation for his suicide would be that he was extremely saddened over Christine's death.
Enough to kill yourself? Seems extreme, but perhaps if he was in a fragile mental state, it might have pushed him over the edge.

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
There appears to be some discrepancy in this article about whether or not the two knew each other. One source said that Murphy was "was close to Christine." However, later in the same article: "The LundyTruth website has also raised the possibility that it was committed by a person high on methamphetamine as a "hit", and said it bore similarities to violent home invasion murders in nearby Marton and Feilding. But a close friend of Christine Lundy, Christine Lockett, said there was no need for the police to widen their investigation.She said Sheridan Murphy's suicide was 'bizarre timing' but he had not known Christine."
Surely they must have some connection, why else would Murphy be on the police suspect list?

They key point is the police started off with a dodgy TOD and based their entire case around it. 55 suspects might have had an an alibi for 7pm but not one for later in the evening.
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Old 28th February 2015, 11:54 AM   #262
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When Christine usually retired, according to Mark

Here is a link which discusses Christine's nighttime habits from Mark's recollection. I think that Murphy's connection is deserving of more investigation.
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Old 28th February 2015, 01:26 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I agree there are two noted episodes, the funeral and the fast recovery from a slumping gait after being interviewed, when presuming himself out of sight. Since we know he has an alibi for physical presence and someone else delivered the blows, how does all this fit?
It all fits perfectly - he was making sure he was the picture of distress.

It certainly stopped the police investigating other options - like an accomplice - and only a jury that was swayed by the defendant being particularly repulsive stopped him getting away with it from Day 1 after the murder.

The prefect crime was only fooled by prejudice. Quite funny when you think about; apart from the hacked-up bodies of Christine & Amber.

Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
What evidence do you have that a massive amount of cleaning took place, and why would a body protection suit have been involved?

Again, have you seen crime scene photos? May we see them? On what is your description of the crime scene based?
Did you see the part about the blood being splattered on the walls so badly that there was a silhouette of the perpetrator? There is no doubt he was absolutely covered in blood - and tissue - from head to toe.

I'm not saying there was definitely a body-suit involved, but given the planning involved, it's pretty likely. Might have been a raincoat. It is, however, utterly certain a huge clean-up was needed, including a complete change of clothing.

Have I seen the crime scene photos? Yes. (post body removal)

Can you see them? Not unless they're broadcast, which I would think is highly unlikely.
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Old 28th February 2015, 02:56 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It all fits perfectly - he was making sure he was the picture of distress.

It certainly stopped the police investigating other options - like an accomplice - and only a jury that was swayed by the defendant being particularly repulsive stopped him getting away with it from Day 1 after the murder.

The prefect crime was only fooled by prejudice. Quite funny when you think about; apart from the hacked-up bodies of Christine & Amber.



Did you see the part about the blood being splattered on the walls so badly that there was a silhouette of the perpetrator? There is no doubt he was absolutely covered in blood - and tissue - from head to toe.

I'm not saying there was definitely a body-suit involved, but given the planning involved, it's pretty likely. Might have been a raincoat. It is, however, utterly certain a huge clean-up was needed, including a complete change of clothing.

Have I seen the crime scene photos? Yes. (post body removal)

Can you see them? Not unless they're broadcast, which I would think is highly unlikely.

Yes, and as I said above, the cite you gave for this made it sound much tamer than your interpretation of it. I will see if I can find some photos.

Re: second highlight, why is the planning a given?
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Old 28th February 2015, 03:49 PM   #265
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Yes, crime scene photos would be huge. A dossier on Christine Lundy might be of even greater value.

I have a feeling the suicide case is a red herring. I think there must be something else. I would like to know about business as well as personal contacts.
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Old 28th February 2015, 03:51 PM   #266
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can't find anything online. Atheist - how did you come to see them?
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Old 28th February 2015, 03:55 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Surely they must have some connection, why else would Murphy be on the police suspect list?
He may have been on the list only because he was a neighbor who killed himself a couple of days after the murders.
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Old 28th February 2015, 04:03 PM   #268
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What happened to the jewelry box?

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Yes, crime scene photos would be huge. A dossier on Christine Lundy might be of even greater value.

I have a feeling the suicide case is a red herring. I think there must be something else. I would like to know about business as well as personal contacts.
It might not be a red herring if Murphy were involved in the vineyard real estate deal. I don't have any information on that, however.

On another aspect of the case, did Christine's jewels ever turn up?
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Old 28th February 2015, 04:09 PM   #269
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Interesting how some people are assumed to be guilty because they're physically unattractive. And yet in other cases, those pointing out the flaws in the evidence are dismissed as "groupies" because the accused is not physically repulsive.
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Old 28th February 2015, 04:39 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
It might not be a red herring if Murphy were involved in the vineyard real estate deal. I don't have any information on that, however.

On another aspect of the case, did Christine's jewels ever turn up?
It is reported the jewellery box never turned up. Lundy is quoted as saying both he did not know what was in it, and that they were worth 20k.
We are still trying to contact the land vendor. He is seen to have skype open, but not responding.
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Old 28th February 2015, 04:58 PM   #271
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Personally don't care what happens to the dude as long as we don't pay him anything.

Would be more impressed if the police tried to find out what happened to the Kahui twins rather than writing it off.
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Old 28th February 2015, 05:14 PM   #272
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I expect he will be compensated. The prosecution is bringing a case with impossible specifics, a TOD 8.5 hours after the most likely time of meal commencement, and 6.5 hours after Amber's regular bedtime. Both victims had recognizable meal contents in their stomachs, and are stated to have had empty duodenums. The case will go to an international jurist, who will declare Lundy could not have done what the crown alleges, therefore a prima facie case for compensation is proved.
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Old 28th February 2015, 05:23 PM   #273
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Where is Collins when you need her?
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Old 28th February 2015, 07:06 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
He may have been on the list only because he was a neighbor who killed himself a couple of days after the murders.
Murphy lived in Juliana Place, Lundy in Karamea Crescent. They're nearly 10km apart.
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Old 28th February 2015, 07:55 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Murphy lived in Juliana Place, Lundy in Karamea Crescent. They're nearly 10km apart.
Hmm. Interesting. I thought they lived in the same immediate neighborhood. If they lived that far apart, and he was a suspect, there must indeed have been some other connection.
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Old 28th February 2015, 08:07 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yep, but they did that with David Bain. Canadian Justice Binnie's report in favour of compensation was rejected by the NZ Government, and they commissioned Justice Fisher to report on Justice Binnie's report.

After some too-ing and fro-ing in the midst of Justice Minister Judith Collins' fall from grace, Amy Adams took over and endorsed Judith Collins' view, set both reports aside and started again, commissioning yet another report.

Justice Binnie, has said the he is not happy with Adams' criticisms of his report. He argues that he had 'weighed up the totality of the evidence both for and against Mr Bain.' He said the Government was clearly 'shopping around' for a report that will allow it to dodge paying compensation.

IMO, they will keep Judge shopping until they get what they want.
This case looks different though. The man has been in jail for many years on a totally different crown theory, and their TOD was pathologically plausible first time round.
The crown never changed their theory in the Bain case, and there is no smoking gun for the defence to prove father did it. If anything, David Bain has difficulty with the return home and the computer.
Lundy appears to have consecutive events that preclude his direct involvement, and the crown have pretty much conceded.
It might be worth remembering later that no one on this thread is supporting the new crown theory (yet)

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Old 28th February 2015, 08:21 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
Yes, and as I said above, the cite you gave for this made it sound much tamer than your interpretation of it.
The evidence presented in court was tame? Wow, you must read some hoopy crime stories.

Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
Re: second highlight, why is the planning a given?
Repeat: the perp was covered in blood from head to toe.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally don't care what happens to the dude as long as we don't pay him anything.
Me too, really. He served over half his non-parole period and plenty of murderers have served far less, including the child-murderer Soulan Pownceby (né Rikihana) who bashed his five month old baby to death over a period of 4-5 weeks.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Would be more impressed if the police tried to find out what happened to the Kahui twins rather than writing it off.
That one you can't hang on the pigs - they really did try to solve it, but when you have 12 people, all of whom know who did it but refuse to say one word about it, they were never going to find out.

A law change to lock them all up would do it for me.
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Old 28th February 2015, 09:40 PM   #278
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Totally agree with your last point Atheist
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Old 28th February 2015, 11:35 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It might be worth remembering later that no one on this thread is supporting the new crown theory (yet)
The original TOD was 7pm, and the reports from the first days of the trial were:

Quote:
The Crown has changed its version of events since the 2002 trial. It is now alleged Lundy killed his wife and daughter in the early hours of August 30.
(...)
The Crown now believes Mark Lundy killed his wife and daughter about six hours later than its original estimation.
6 hours later is 1:00am on the 30th. The prostitute left Lundy's motel at 12:48am, so he has an iron-clad alibi for 1:00am. The absolute earliest he could have been back in PN is around 2:20 am. Does the gastric evidence plausibly support a TOD that late?

I have no idea what the Crown's case is any more, I'm not sure they do either. It's a dog's breakfast.

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Old 1st March 2015, 12:02 AM   #280
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It may be time to consult a psychic. I wonder if Noreen Renier is available?
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