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Old 2nd September 2018, 09:06 AM   #361
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm really amused by the notion that talking about how some monkeys are articulate really might be a dog whistle, but it's not "legitimate racism" if it was part of some elaborate trap.
When one stretches what was actually said so far out of shape in order to stick a label on someone, it makes the distorter seem determined to stick that label everywhere.

Again, you make my point for me.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 09:10 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The only evidence that it is a "dog whistle" is the insistence by some that it is.

Insisting that Gillums use of the loaded term "pigs" is just as un-falsifiable of a claim, that is why I posted it.

It took what? 20posts? To go from an observation that we would be better served not making "RACISM!!" the be-all end-all rallying cry of our party (to the point of requiring any potential supporter to "show their papers" by labeling a potentially racist statement as definitely a racist dog whistle) to :" you are a poser ".

You make my point for me.

Have you forgotten that in order to win a (statewide) election we actually need to get more votes than the opponent?
Oh. You think I made your point for you?

Sorry, you did that for yourself.
NO ONE...
ABSOLUTELY ******* NO ONE
is saying that racism is the 'end all rallying cry' or you have to show your papers. You don't have to agree that Desantis was probably blowing a dog whistle. You don't have to agree that racism is still a problem.

There is no such thing as a monolithic party consensus. You don't have to agree with every party plank....I sure as hell don't. I find it strange that from a white person's perspective that this faux-issue would sway your party allegiance when in my view this is really just a distraction.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 09:19 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Oh. You think I made your point for you?

Sorry, you did that for yourself.
NO ONE...
ABSOLUTELY ******* NO ONE
is saying that racism is the 'end all rallying cry' or you have to show your papers. You don't have to agree that Desantis was probably blowing a dog whistle. You don't have to agree that racism is still a problem.

There is no such thing as a monolithic party consensus. You don't have to agree with every party plank....I sure as hell don't. I find it strange that from a white person's perspective that this faux-issue would sway your party allegiance when in my view this is really just a distraction.
If you were to review our discussion, you would not find me stating that my party allegiance was swayed.
What you might find, instead are statements by me suggesting that the party's in this race are pretty much set already in who they are going to vote for, and further, that both parties are already thoroughly motivated in the current political climate.

That leaves a battle for those few who are "undecided".

You seem to feel that "DeSantis is a racist!, and his voters are racists!, because it is impossible to use the term 'monkey it up' " is a rallying cry that will draw the larger share of the undecideds our way.
I am concerned that the opposite is true, and such an assertion will push more of them away.

Cute dog, BTW. Some kind of Dalmation mix?

Edited for clarity.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 09:46 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If you were to review our discussion, you would not find me stating that my party allegiance was swayed.
What you might find, instead are statements by me suggesting that the party's in this race are pretty much set already in who they are going to vote for, and further, that both parties are already thoroughly motivated in the current political climate.

That leaves a battle for those few who are "undecided".

You seem to feel that "DeSantis is a racist!, and his voters are racists!, because it is impossible to use the term 'monkey it up' " is a rallying cry that will draw the larger share of the undecideds our way.
I am concerned that the opposite is true, and such an assertion will push more of them away.

Cute dog, BTW. Some kind of Dalmation mix?

Edited for clarity.
Hell, I don't know if Desantis is a racist, but it sure appears as if he is using racist tactics. And I don't see the Gillum campaign using it as a rallying cry either. If you see what happened you can see that the press etc could see the dog whistle and naturally asked him about it. Also a PAC is clearly making racist robocalls on the behalf of Desantis.

So to say that Gillum and the Dems are making race an issue in this campaign is patently false. But I'm afraid it's going to be a huge issue in this election as the GOP will find subtle ways to make it the issue all the time claiming innocence and accusing the Dems or playing the race card.

As for the dog, I don't know. Looks like Marmaduke to me.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 09:50 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Hell, I don't know if Desantis is a racist, but it sure appears as if he is using racist tactics. And I don't see the Gillum campaign using it as a rallying cry either. If you see what happened you can see that the press etc could see the dog whistle and naturally asked him about it. Also a PAC is clearly making racist robocalls on the behalf of Desantis.

So to say that Gillum and the Dems are making race an issue in this campaign is patently false. But I'm afraid it's going to be a huge issue in this election as the GOP will find subtle ways to make it the issue all the time claiming innocence and accusing the Dems or playing the race card.

As for the dog, I don't know. Looks like Marmaduke to me.
The GOPs attempts to make it an issue only work if the Dems consistently charge at the red curtain.
We might be better served leaving the fringe cases to wither of their own accord. Minority voters are perceptive enough to know whether they feel they are being insulted or not.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 10:18 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The GOPs attempts to make it an issue only work if the Dems consistently charge at the red curtain.
We might be better served leaving the fringe cases to wither of their own accord. Minority voters are perceptive enough to know whether they feel they are being insulted or not.
I don't disagree. But I don't see it not being made an issue.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 11:37 AM   #367
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Some more indications that the Democrats are going to shoot themselves in the foot again by overreaching in search of the Lost Tribe:

Quote:
Democrats nominated Jealous, a former NAACP president, to face Hogan. He’s a dream candidate for progressives: a Bernie Sanders acolyte who advocates for single-payer health insurance, free college tuition, and the legalization of marijuana among other liberal priorities. He defeated a relatively moderate, business-friendly opponent in Prince George’s County executive Rushern Baker III, making the argument that the only way to defeat the popular Hogan was by rallying the base across a liberal state like Maryland.

So far, that strategy hasn’t panned out. Republican-aligned groups have spent millions tagging Jealous as an extremist, targeting his single-payer health care proposal. He dropped an expletive at a Washington Post reporter who asked if he was a socialist at a press conference. Public polls show his negatives unusually high for a first-time candidate, and he’s struggling to consolidate support in majority-minority Baltimore City and Prince George’s County. Jealous hasn’t raised money to match his national profile, and is running low on campaign cash, according to new campaign finance filings.
There are others:

Quote:
The public’s willingness to embrace progressivism will be tested in at least three other pivotal governor’s races in November. In an upset, Florida Democrats nominated Tallahassee mayor Andrew Gillum, another Bernie Sanders ally who would be the first African-American governor of the state. In Arizona, Democrats chose David Garcia, an educator vying to be the first Hispanic governor in over 40 years and whose immigration views are well to the left of typical statewide candidates. And in Georgia, former state legislative leader Stacey Abrams has become a national icon for her strategy of reaching out to new voters instead of relying on persuading suburbanites. In all these races, Democrats are hoping to change the electorate with a message that rallies liberal nonwhite voters to the polls even if it risks losing some typical swing voters.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 11:40 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The point of the obvious dog whistle was to get DiSantist to start talking about race. The one thing a black candidate in a mixed race political contest can't talk about is race. It turns off independent and swing voters. You have to talk about issues impacting the entire state. Gillum wants to paint DiSantis as a black/civil rights issue only politician. To do that he needs DiSantis to respond to his racist comments.

DiSantis needs to dismiss the attempt at race baiting for what it is and talk about wage stagnation, school crowding, flood insurance, red tides and infrastructure. This is stuff Floridians care about.
I realized after writing this that I'd reversed the names. DiSantis is the dirty Trump supporter bigot and Gillum is the black, Democratic opponent. I regret the error.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 11:53 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I realized after writing this that I'd reversed the names. DiSantis is the dirty Trump supporter bigot and Gillum is the black, Democratic opponent. I regret the error.

That wasn't your only error. But hey, a rose by any other name...
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Old 2nd September 2018, 12:27 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Some more indications that the Democrats are going to shoot themselves in the foot again by overreaching in search of the Lost Tribe:



There are others:
Yes. Uber-Progressives may attract attention, they don't attract a lot of campaign cash. Or necessarily much marketing savvy.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 01:15 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Yes. Uber-Progressives may attract attention, they don't attract a lot of campaign cash. Or necessarily much marketing savvy.
And then sometimes the "centrists" like Clinton have both and still lose to the Republican.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 02:47 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
That wasn't your only error. But hey, a rose by any other name...
The Republican is a Trump supporter that makes him racist by definition. You can be a racist and not support Trump but you can't support Trump and not be a racist.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 06:07 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
And then sometimes the "centrists" like Clinton have both and still lose to the Republican.
The Republicans have been double guarding against Clinton for years, piling accusation after accusation. Not a good data point for a general theory.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 06:27 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Some more indications that the Democrats are going to shoot themselves in the foot again by overreaching in search of the Lost Tribe:



There are others:

I'm not sure I agree that Maryland was winnable. You have a distance-yourself-from-Trump popular GOP governor. His personal charisma with the voters is pretty solid. Jealous has about a zero on the charm meter and Mumbles could enlighten us, but I imagine but the NAACP is not half as relevant in the black community as their own community/city leaders. Quick, name the last three heads of the NAACP? His programs are progressive, not socialist, but he has no government track record and a populist needs to be popular, which he ain't.

Florida and Georgia? The Republicans, in those cases, have made those "possible". It's not the Dems that are possibly losing winnable races but the GOP doing their best to give them a shot. Florida's state politics are pretty conservative and have been getting more so. Georgia? The fact that the Dems are in the race is because the GOP nominated the "It's His Turn" guy. Not only deplorable but a corrupt deplorable at that.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 07:30 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Jealous has about a zero on the charm meter
I've been following him for years, and always found him highly charismatic.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 07:31 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
The Republicans have been double guarding against Clinton for years, piling accusation after accusation. Not a good data point for a general theory.
Shut up and stop harshing my mellow!

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Old 2nd September 2018, 08:08 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm not sure I agree that Maryland was winnable. You have a distance-yourself-from-Trump popular GOP governor. His personal charisma with the voters is pretty solid. Jealous has about a zero on the charm meter and Mumbles could enlighten us, but I imagine but the NAACP is not half as relevant in the black community as their own community/city leaders. Quick, name the last three heads of the NAACP? His programs are progressive, not socialist, but he has no government track record and a populist needs to be popular, which he ain't.
The NAACP's more relevant lately, and Jealous is well-liked as far as NAACP heads go, but...

First, compared to groups like BLM, they aren't much to younger people. Jealous was the start of turning that around, and actually relatively well-known after helping pull the NAACP back into protests that weren't stupid and getting certain local chapters under control (LA chapter, I'm looking at you intently!), but that's about all. As far as charisma goes, he's got a lot, but not at Obama levels.

Hogan is notably apart from Dolt 45 - from refusing to even attend the 2016 RNC convention, to mitigating the federal tax hike, to letting the AG go after Cheeto Benito's various white supremacist schemes. He's done reasonably well at crisis management (although not so good at long-term prevention, I'll note - but there's a lot that went into c flooding twice in under 2 years), and has the usual incumbent advantage in good economic times. Even some dem legislators are outright endorsing him over Jealous.

...and a large part of this is that they're working for veto-proof majorities, and gerrymandering the GOP out of power at every other level. a Dem governor can put pressures on them that a republican governor can't, just by using party apparatus. SO having Hogan there kinda works for them, too.

And the major lefty out of touch candidate wasn't Jealous (who is fairly mainstream as far as most issues go), it was Chelsea Manning, and I don't think Sen. Cardin even bothered mentioning her by name before winning about 80% of his primary vote.

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Old 2nd September 2018, 08:16 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've been following him for years, and always found him highly charismatic.
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The NAACP's more relevant lately, and Jealous is well-liked as far as NAACP heads go, but...

First, compared to groups like BLM, they aren't much to younger people. Jealous was the start of turning that around, and actually relatively well-known after helping pull the NAACP back into protests that weren't stupid and getting certain local chapters under control (LA chapter, I'm looking at you intently!), but that's about all. As far as charisma goes, he's got a lot, but not at Obama levels.

Hogan is notably apart from Dolt 45 - from refusing to even attend the 2016 RNC convention, to mitigating the federal tax hike, to letting the AG go after Cheeto Benito's various white supremacist schemes. He's done reasonably well at crisis management (although not so good at long-term prevention, I'll note - but there's a lot that went into c flooding twice in under 2 years), and has the usual incumbent advantage in good economic times. Even some dem legislators are outright endorsing him over Jealous.

...and a large part of this is that they're working for veto-proof majorities, and gerrymandering the GOP out of power at every other level. a Dem governor can put pressures on them that a republican governor can't, just by using party apparatus. SO having Hogan there kinda works for them, too.

And the major lefty out of touch candidate wasn't Jealous (who is fairly mainstream as far as most issues go), it was Chelsea Manning, and I don't think Sen. Cardin even bothered mentioning her by name before winning about 80% of his primary vote.
Thanks, guys. I imagine I'll see more of him in coming weeks/months and I admit I've had limited exposure to him. Were I a Maryland voter, I'd be voting for him. I was really just addressing the article's assumption that the Maryland State House should be a Democratic slam dunk. I'll take my previous assumptions with a grain of salt.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 08:42 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Thanks, guys. I imagine I'll see more of him in coming weeks/months and I admit I've had limited exposure to him. Were I a Maryland voter, I'd be voting for him. I was really just addressing the article's assumption that the Maryland State House should be a Democratic slam dunk. I'll take my previous assumptions with a grain of salt.
That's what I figured you were mostly addressing. And you were largely correct in what you said - I'm definitely voting for Jealous, but Hogan was the easy favorite right from the start. He's popular in his own right, it's an off-presidential year election, the state's doing pretty well, he's the incumbent. Everything here favors him.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 12:26 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Thanks, guys. I imagine I'll see more of him in coming weeks/months and I admit I've had limited exposure to him. Were I a Maryland voter, I'd be voting for him. I was really just addressing the article's assumption that the Maryland State House should be a Democratic slam dunk. I'll take my previous assumptions with a grain of salt.
I don't think I or the guy who wrote the article thought the race was a slam dunk. The article makes it clear that Hogan, the sitting Republican governor, is quite popular (although potentially vulnerable in a blue wave election). The point is that Jealous made an explicit argument for the Lost Tribe in his campaign (see the part that I highlighted in my post). The claim is that by rallying the base, they could somehow overcome Hogan's popular appeal. This is the Lost Tribe theory in a nutshell, that there is a group of voters who have disengaged but will suddenly turn out in droves if a candidate would only espouse policies sufficiently far to the left.

Rush Limbaugh and many other yakkers on the Right buy into it 100% as well, although of course they claim that the Lost Tribe consists of a bunch of conservatives wandering in the wilderness.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 12:45 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I don't think I or the guy who wrote the article thought the race was a slam dunk. The article makes it clear that Hogan, the sitting Republican governor, is quite popular (although potentially vulnerable in a blue wave election). The point is that Jealous made an explicit argument for the Lost Tribe in his campaign (see the part that I highlighted in my post). The claim is that by rallying the base, they could somehow overcome Hogan's popular appeal. This is the Lost Tribe theory in a nutshell, that there is a group of voters who have disengaged but will suddenly turn out in droves if a candidate would only espouse policies sufficiently far to the left.

Rush Limbaugh and many other yakkers on the Right buy into it 100% as well, although of course they claim that the Lost Tribe consists of a bunch of conservatives wandering in the wilderness.
Since the article was about "winnable" governorships that the Dems are blowing their opportunity on, I pointed out (and rightly so, I feel) that it really is misleading to call that one "winnable". Hogan's too popular and even has (before Jealous was confirmed) bipartisan support from not-quite-blue-dog Dems.

And the other two, I think it's yet to be seen, but they're equally opportunities that the GOP created by nominating turds. Georgia's not yet purple and certainly not ready to go blue. Florida is in the mood to elect another Republican, I think. They came out in strength for Trump. I'd love to see the GOP lose all three but I don't think they get more than one and maybe not that.

Ergo, I think the article is mischaracterizing the situation. It's basically a plug for moderate corporatist Democrat candidates.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 02:03 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
<snip>

There is no such thing as a monolithic party consensus. You don't have to agree with every party plank...

<snip>


You do if you're trying to claw your way through a GOP primary.

The least little deviation from accepted gospel is blood in the water to all the other candidates.

Republicans eat their young.
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Old 4th September 2018, 07:50 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently you are unaware of what a dog whistle (a literal one) is. If you can hear one sounded next to your ears, you are not a human. The whole notion of a figurative dog whistle is supposedly nobody hears it except racists. Hence my amusement at liberals hearing them everywhere.
I agree that that is the intent.

However, like the really (((subtle))) alt-right indication of Jewish influence, it is often quite obvious.

Ditto the 18 and 88 references that Nazis also like.

If I was in a group of people that the Klan was trying to associate with, I'd be bloody careful about seeming to support their ideas. If that involved not coining a new phase involving monkeys when referring to my black opponent, then it would be a sacrifice I'd manage to make.
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Old 4th September 2018, 08:11 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I guess we just differ then. I referred to an African American as a "boy" just this past Sunday, and frequently use terms such as "monkey around","monkey wrench","monkey see-monkey do", and "monkey suit" without hesitation.

Your allegation that this makes me "stupid", and that my use of the word "monkey" in an expression is a "vague allusion to African Americans" is exactly what I am talking about.
I do not need to defend my innocent use of English. Your vilification of my innocent word choice makes you seem to me a bit less than completely rational- and further, someone you wouldn't want on "your side" even though our viewpoints are very similar.

Were I an independent voter in Florida, being reminded that "the left" considers me an enemy because I refer to a male juvenile as a "boy", and to foolish behavior as "monkeying around" is not going to get me to the polling booth to pull the lever for the Democrats.

That is the (possible) subtlety of the comments by DiSantis I am seeing.
Nobody is saying that the word "monkey" is inherently racist, and lots of people have pointed out that "monkey about" and "monkey wrench" are perfectly cromulent phrases.

I have never heard "monkey up" until this occasion.

Similarly, referring to boys as boys is also reasonable.
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Old 4th September 2018, 09:00 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Or,
I really don't care for Trump and his ilk, but I just can't bring myself to go out and vote for the party that calls me a racist for using the term "monkey"
... when talking about a black person.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 4th September 2018, 09:13 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
I don't know if Trump misspoke, or if his speech was improperly transcribed. But from reading it, it looks like he said: "some rapists are good people."
Probably ones who rape their wives - which we all know his attorney thought wasn't a crime.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 4th September 2018, 09:14 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You do if you're trying to claw your way through a GOP primary.

The least little deviation from accepted gospel is blood in the water to all the other candidates.

Republicans eat their young.
I don't know. Free trade has ALWAYS been a major tenet of GOP politics and now it isn't. This stuff changes. I remember a time when you could be pro choice, even gay as a Republican. Remember 'log cabin' Republicans?
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Old 4th September 2018, 10:36 AM   #388
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Given the book "Fear" that's coming out, and if it can demonstrated to be true, the Democrats should make sure to broadcast this Trump quote in the south:

Quote:
Mocking Sessions’s accent, Trump added, “This guy is mentally retarded. He’s this dumb Southerner. … He couldn’t even be a one-person country lawyer down in Alabama.”
I'm sure people in the south would love to hear that.

ETA: If half of what the author claims is true, we're flirting with disaster constantly, here, and Trump's only check is a number of people willing to break with tradition or even the chain of command to avoid a catastrophe.
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Old 4th September 2018, 04:05 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't know. Free trade has ALWAYS been a major tenet of GOP politics and now it isn't. This stuff changes. I remember a time when you could be pro choice, even gay as a Republican. Remember 'log cabin' Republicans?

Yes. Things have changed.

That's pretty much the point.
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Old 4th September 2018, 04:07 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Given the book "Fear" that's coming out, and if it can demonstrated to be true, the Democrats should make sure to broadcast this Trump quote in the south:



I'm sure people in the south would love to hear that.

ETA: If half of what the author claims is true, we're flirting with disaster constantly, here, and Trump's only check is a number of people willing to break with tradition or even the chain of command to avoid a catastrophe.
His base won't believe it.
Eta: and Woodward can't prove it, since his sources are deep background. He allegedly has tapes, but to release them would be to betray his sources.

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Old 4th September 2018, 05:15 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yes. Things have changed.

That's pretty much the point.
I thought your point was the opposite. My mistake.....or was it yours? Hmmmm

Any way we are on the same page now.
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Old 5th September 2018, 09:53 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't know. Free trade has ALWAYS been a major tenet of GOP politics and now it isn't. This stuff changes. I remember a time when you could be pro choice, even gay as a Republican. Remember 'log cabin' Republicans?
Always? Not during the Hoover administration.
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Old 5th September 2018, 10:30 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Always? Not during the Hoover administration.
Yea, I forgot to mention Willis Hawley and Reed Smoot.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:02 PM   #394
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A Prediction:
Since the Blue Wave for the House seems unstoppable, Russian interference will focus on de-legitimising the election.
Expect to hear fabricated news of massive voting fraud and ballot stuffing- possibly enough for Republicans to force recounts and thus extend their control of Congress.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:27 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A Prediction:
Since the Blue Wave for the House seems unstoppable, Russian interference will focus on de-legitimising the election.
And they already have done that two years ago. Now any loser in an election can call into question the whole deal, and you can bet that Trump will.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:41 PM   #396
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Obama Urges Young Voters To Ignore How Many Lousy Candidates Democratic Party Runs
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:37 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Got me.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:08 PM   #398
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My goodness. The Republicans might lose in Texas, Nevada and Arizona. On balance the Democrats might lose Florida. That is a net gain of two Senate seats.



Interesting.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:13 PM   #399
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Mitch McCOnell is planning on keeping the senate in session through Octover to lessen the chances of Dems in the midterms.
McConell is evil. He is willing to destroy democracy to keep his party in power.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:32 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Mitch McCOnell is planning on keeping the senate in session through Octover to lessen the chances of Dems in the midterms.
McConell is evil. He is willing to destroy democracy to keep his party in power.
How does making the Senate work more help destroy democracy?
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