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Tags atheism , China incidents , China issues , christian persecution , gosateizm

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Old 10th September 2018, 08:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
...
First, there are a lot of people on this board who act like the United States is a Christian theocracy where non-Christians, especially atheists, are a persecuted minority. That's bunk. ...
Riiight,

Christian legislators opposing abortion, anything non-hetero, trying to force the teaching of Creationism in public schools as valid science, claiming evolution is not settled science, claiming there is no global warming problem because man cannot destroy God's creation, ....

Nothing to worry about there.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Riiight,

Christian legislators opposing abortion, anything non-hetero, trying to force the teaching of Creationism in public schools as valid science, claiming evolution is not settled science, claiming there is no global warming problem because man cannot destroy God's creation, ....

Nothing to worry about there.
That's not "real theocracy" because they aren't jailing and killing non-christians.........
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
If you read correctly what you copy we would not waste our time.

The campaign of Chinese government is aimed to “sinisizing” religion. That is to say not to destroy all religion.

A few lines later we can read:
“Chinese law requires religious believers to worship only in congregations registered with the authorities”.
This is to say. Religion in itself it is not forbidden by the “atheist” Chinese government. Only controlled.

This is to say, what you present here as an “atheist” attack against religion is actually a political measure in order to control possible dissidences. You can claim against this attack against freedom of cult —in other hand, very frequent in theocratic countries that are not atheists— but this is a political violation of rights not intrinsically linked of the atheism.

You should select better your sources and learn to read a little better.

Anyway, thank you for making the atheists of this forum agree.

Last edited by David Mo; 10th September 2018 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:31 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Demanding that people sign papers and renounce their faith has nothing to do with Atheism?.
Correct.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:51 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...d79_story.html



Appalling.
And in case you didn't know (and you obviously didn't) it ain't just Christians that the totalitarian Chinese government targets. Do a little reading on Tibetan Buddhists, and Falun Dafa.
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do a little reading on Tibetan Buddhists, and Falun Dafa.
Obviously Fake Churches.....
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:23 AM   #47
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Ah yes. The Chinese government wants a state approved religion and are nominally althiests. In TBD world this means all athiests are bad.

In the same way that since some Catholic priests raped children, all Catholics are Pedophiles. Thanks TBD for agreeing that Catholics are Pedophiles.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:43 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
...snip...

Like the Soviets, the goal of China is not to destroy religion, it is to assimilate it and use it as a tool of the state.
Indeed people don't seem to be aware that in China the state appoints the Bishops:

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...ina-deal-84489

Quote:
...snip...

Bishop Fang said Catholics should support President Xi Jinping “because we, as citizens of the country, should first be a citizen and then have religion and beliefs," in a Chinese media interview at the congressional meeting.

[b]Fang, who was ordained a bishop in Beijing in 2000 without Vatican approval and then legitimized by the Holy See two years later,

...snip...
The Chinese state is absolutely fine with religion as long as it conforms to their views of its place in the world i.e. sinicize
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:44 AM   #49
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Why do you guys even try?
And I don't mean that OP will say just about anything as long as it riles up his 'enemies', and that he doesn't care about facts or discussing things in good faith...

I mean that he's obviously correct!
Rejoice, we're winning. When the last Buddhist baby is strangled with the guts of the last Christian grandma, and the pyramid of Muslim skulls reaches the heavens, our atheist utopia will be upon us!
Praise be to the Un-God, may non-He not drink of the blood of the infidels because he's obviously not real!
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And in case you didn't know (and you obviously didn't) it ain't just Christians that the totalitarian Chinese government targets. Do a little reading on Tibetan Buddhists, and Falun Dafa.
TBD is aware of that, he quotes the campaign against Muslims in the 4th post in the thread and explicitly mentions non-Christians in a follow up post: "..You think that they are putting a million Muslims in re-education camps because of that..." (formatting added)
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:49 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...d79_story.html



Appalling.
Clickbait. Downvoted.



Yes, destroying churches is an asshat move. Jail them.
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:12 AM   #52
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That sure is a weird kind of atheism. One that actually proscribes religion:

Quote:
But I've also seen how religion is tightly proscribed.

Only five religious groups are allowed to exist in China: Buddhism, Daoism, Islam, Protestantism and Catholicism. The government controls the appointment of major religious figures, and decides where places of worship can be built. It tries to influence theology and limits contacts overseas. And it bans groups it doesn't like, especially the spiritual practice Falun Gong, or groups it calls cults, like the charismatic Christian splinter sect Almighty God.
Focusing on religious oppression in China misses the big picture (CNN, March 1, 2017)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 11th September 2018 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:21 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I did, it is in the linked article. Not only that it requires the faithful to renounce their religion and they have interned a million Muslims.

Is the link not working?
No, it's not, since it's behind a paywall. I don't need to read it anyway, as your cherry-picked quote reveals your bias, and this news isn't new to me.

Wait just a minute while I check with the Atheist Pope to see what the International Atheists plan to do. I think conscription into the Atheist Army may be next. Or maybe we should be praying to the Atheist God for action.
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Why do you guys even try?
And I don't mean that OP will say just about anything as long as it riles up his 'enemies', and that he doesn't care about facts or discussing things in good faith...

I mean that he's obviously correct!
Rejoice, we're winning. When the last Buddhist baby is strangled with the guts of the last Christian grandma, and the pyramid of Muslim skulls reaches the heavens, our atheist utopia will be upon us!
Praise be to the Un-God, may non-He not drink of the blood of the infidels because he's obviously not real!
Lol!
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
I think conscription into the Atheist Army may be next. Or maybe we should be praying to the Atheist God for action.

I know of at least one atheist who has been deified:
Che Guevara in religion (Wikipedia)
I think that he would neither approve nor be flattered ...
"But Che knew there was no God and that after his death nothing remains."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 11th September 2018 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:27 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That sure is a weird kind of atheism. One that actually proscribes religion:
That article seemed to have left out the major religion?
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.

That pretty much says it all. But I'm sure TBD will manage to squirm at least a dozen of pages from it, not that it'll make much sense, but with the classical structure "the OP is twisted into a piece of propaganda" and the rest of the thread tries to manipulate everyone into believing "how rightfully the content of that piece of propaganda was denounced". Göbbels here, Göbbels there, Göbbels everywhere.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:16 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
That pretty much says it all. But I'm sure TBD will manage to squirm at least a dozen of pages from it, not that it'll make much sense, but with the classical structure "the OP is twisted into a piece of propaganda" and the rest of the thread tries to manipulate everyone into believing "how rightfully the content of that piece of propaganda was denounced". Göbbels here, Göbbels there, Göbbels everywhere.
Well that is two votes for thinking "think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling" is worse than interning a million Muslims and destroying churches and forced conversions.

I did not even think there would be one, but priorities, huh folks.

Although going full Godwin in response to an article about putting religious people in internment camps, also more than a bit of surprise.

The contention that forced conversions giving up a faith by a Officially Atheist country is not about Atheism is the single most absurd thing I have seen in a long while.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
Well, there's clearly no point but.....

The word atheist was inserted by the writer, its really not significant to the story. Join one of the officially registered churches that are "loyal" to the party and you're fine, they're cracking down on the unregistered churches which strongly implies its not a belief in god they take issue with but loyalty to god over party. Terrible and authoritarian but it doesn't exactly support your narrative.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Well, there's clearly no point but.....

The word atheist was inserted by the writer, its really not significant to the story. Join one of the officially registered churches that are "loyal" to the party and you're fine, they're cracking down on the unregistered churches which strongly implies its not a belief in god they take issue with but loyalty to god over party. Terrible and authoritarian but it doesn't exactly support your narrative.
Which is what the Chinese Bishop appointed by the Chinese government and the Vatican says.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well that is two votes for thinking "think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling" is worse than interning a million Muslims and destroying churches and forced conversions.

I did not even think there would be one, but priorities, huh folks.

Although going full Godwin in response to an article about putting religious people in internment camps, also more than a bit of surprise.

The contention that forced conversions giving up a faith by a Officially Atheist country is not about Atheism is the single most absurd thing I have seen in a long while.
Where is that stated by the Chinese state?
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:57 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The contention that forced conversions giving up a faith by a Officially Atheist country is not about Atheism is the single most absurd thing I have seen in a long while.
Quote:
The constitution permits what is called "normal religious activities," so long as they do not involve the use of religion to "engage in activities that disrupt social order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious organizations and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign dominance." (Art. 36) From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#China
Once again:

The Chinese government main concern it is not atheism but the preservation ot the political system that they call "communism". A policial system in any case.

Where the absurdity is?

Last edited by David Mo; 11th September 2018 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:58 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Where is that stated by the Chinese state?
In its Constitution (1978).
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:33 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Well, there's clearly no point but.....

The word atheist was inserted by the writer, its really not significant to the story. Join one of the officially registered churches that are "loyal" to the party and you're fine, they're cracking down on the unregistered churches which strongly implies its not a belief in god they take issue with but loyalty to god over party. Terrible and authoritarian but it doesn't exactly support your narrative.
Inserted by the Washington Post as part of their dastardly plan to criticize Atheism?

Fascinating theory, and so appropriate for 9/11 because it is the "truth."

"Join one of the officially registered churches that are "loyal" to the party and you're fine, they're cracking down on the unregistered churches which strongly implies its not a belief in god they take issue with but loyalty to god over party."

Quote:
All of China’s officially recognised religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown. In the northwestern region of Xinjiang, an estimated 1 million Uighurs and other members of Muslim minority groups have been arbitrarily detained in indoctrination camps where they are forced to denounce Islam and profess loyalty to the party.
Hmm, it appears that they are cracking down on officially registered churches which strongly implies it is belief in god they take issue with AND loyalty to god over party.

Well argued.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That article seemed to have left out the major religion?

If you are thinking of Maoist nationalism, it may be quite a bit Messianic, but I don't think that you can call it a religion. It is more like MAGA Trumpism ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:40 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hmm, it appears that they are cracking down on officially registered churches which strongly implies it is belief in god they take issue with AND loyalty to god over party.

Falun Gong was always persecuted. As far as I know, they were never deists.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:43 AM   #67
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That's right! And there's more to come! Us Atheists will not stop until we have destroyed all of Religion and their stupid songs, churches and books HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:01 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh it’s an attack by atheists on not just Christians, but Muslims too. And while I appreciate a good whataboutism, since the beginning of the 20th century the overwhelming number of pogroms have been by atheist states like China and the USSR. Indeed some would say that Atheists have industrialized it.
Well, those athiests have certainly industrialized the construction of enormous statues of Buddha.

8 Giant Buddha Statues in China

Note that many were built in the 1990's, the sites still get improvements - these are not just ancient statues that managed to survive.

The government of China should not destroy Christian or Muslim religious things. They should not suppress Tibetan versions of Buddhism.

But they do these things not because they are atheists, but because they view the "wrong" sorts of religions as foreign or subversive influences. Basic Han Buddhism is not seen as a threat and is not suppressed in the least. Far from it, it seems to get a bit of promotion.

Last edited by crescent; 11th September 2018 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN
That pretty much says it all. But I'm sure TBD will manage to squirm at least a dozen of pages from it, not that it'll make much sense, but with the classical structure "the OP is twisted into a piece of propaganda" and the rest of the thread tries to manipulate everyone into believing "how rightfully the content of that piece of propaganda was denounced". Göbbels here, Göbbels there, Göbbels everywhere.
Well that is two votes for thinking "think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling" is worse than interning a million Muslims and destroying churches and forced conversions.

I did not even think there would be one, but priorities, huh folks.

Although going full Godwin in response to an article about putting religious people in internment camps, also more than a bit of surprise.

The contention that forced conversions giving up a faith by a Officially Atheist country is not about Atheism is the single most absurd thing I have seen in a long while.

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Old 11th September 2018, 09:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Inserted by the Washington Post as part of their dastardly plan to criticize Atheism?

Fascinating theory, and so appropriate for 9/11 because it is the "truth."

"Join one of the officially registered churches that are "loyal" to the party and you're fine, they're cracking down on the unregistered churches which strongly implies its not a belief in god they take issue with but loyalty to god over party."



Hmm, it appears that they are cracking down on officially registered churches which strongly implies it is belief in god they take issue with AND loyalty to god over party.

Well argued.
You should be bitching at your god since your god is so very terrible at protecting his own worshipers.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:01 AM   #71
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You should be bitching at your god since your god is so very terrible at protecting his own worshipers.
well score one for the Atheists then huh?

However, and although I cannot speak for the Muslims and other faiths that the Atheist Chinese State is oppressing, at least some Christians would disagree with your... comment.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew Chapter 5 v. 10-12
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:05 AM   #72
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About that evil atheist in charge of this church destruction, would you vote for someone who supported him?

"He's now president for life. President for life. No, he's great," Trump said. "And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot some day."
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:25 AM   #73
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But in Trump's, case I can't imagine that it'll be very long ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:28 AM   #74
dann
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

You actually do believe that you'll get pie in the sky when you die!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:40 AM   #75
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Have been proved yet that being an atheist in fact means you are an official of the Communist Party of China?
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
My bias? I am simply quoting the article and your post where you said that Thinking "that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China" is MORE appalling than destroying the Churches and interning a million people.

And doing it in the name of Atheism Communism.
FIFY
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:58 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Have been proved yet that being an atheist in fact means you are an official of the Communist Party of China?
Have been proved that if you are an official of the Communist Party of China you are an atheist.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
FIFY
Cool story

"Communism begins from the outset with atheism."

K. marx
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:01 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Have been proved that if you are an official of the Communist Party of China you are an atheist.



Cool story

"Communism begins from the outset with atheism."

K. marx
And in comparing atheists in general with Chinese communists, you fail, badly.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:05 AM   #79
Crossbow
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well score one for the Atheists then huh?

However, and although I cannot speak for the Muslims and other faiths that the Atheist Chinese State is oppressing, at least some Christians would disagree with your... comment.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew Chapter 5 v. 10-12
So in other words, these atheists of yours which you are so very terribly incensed about, are actually doing the work of your god by persecuting those who worship your god.

If this is the case, then you should lionize both the atheists and the theists since both groups are doing the work of your god.

Once again, your logic is truly stunning.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:11 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
And in comparing atheists in general with Chinese communists atheists , you fail, badly.
Fixed that for you!
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