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#241 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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PS
Let me answer it for you, TBD! "´k" |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#242 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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#243 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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Dear Big Dog. I think you have forgoten a previous comment. I would be glad if you answer my objection:
Chinese government’s persecution against some Christian sects is due to atheism or repressive politics. If the Chinese government’s persecution against this Christian sect was due to atheism no religion would be tolerated in China. The Chinese government doesn’t persecute some religions. The Chinese government persecutes other social movements that are not religious. Then, Chinese government’s attacks against some Christian sects are not due to its atheism, but to its repressive politics. Your routine mantra no, please! Something like a logical answer, if possible. |
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#244 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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No, I don't think so. My guess is that TBD will deny that Germany was a capitalist country and claim that it was an atheist country instead. And that Denmark is a capitalist country that used to be Christian. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#245 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,029
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#246 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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You really don't get it, do you? The point of this sentence is that the abolition of religion isn't really a battle against religion. See my sig line: "The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." The abolition of religion is a battle to abolish the miserable conditions that make people need religion. When people are actually happy (and not just pretend happy like in church) because their actual lives are happy, religion will die out - as it is already doing all over the world as soon as societies start approaching this condition. It is actually the exact opposite of religious persecution! (And religious persecution doesn't abolish religion. As you can learn from the story of Ancient Rome it has the opposite effect ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#247 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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We have not a problem with your anti-communism. Our problem is with trying to make you reasoning about atheism.
You make an irrational assumption that atheism is the cause of the police state in China. We have made some logical objections. You don’t reply, but continue with your mantra again and again. I don’t know whether you don’t understand the objections or you don’t want understand them. Or both. Please, answer my previous objections. Do you really think that Danish government are anti-Semitic and genocide? Go on, please. |
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#248 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#249 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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#250 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Hilarious! Bravóóóóó! Now you have to convince us you're not an atheist (and a Marxist automaton -really felt Marxism is a religion itself-), because we only have your word you aren't. Nobody can point to any post in any thread at any time where you show any kind of real religious faith or knowledge about any religious faith, what have led some of us to think you might be one of those nominal Catholics for showing purposes. That's been your world class act for some time now, wrapped in a shiny "the lady protest too much". |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#251 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#252 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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#253 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#254 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#255 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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Nobody's trying to derail anything. We try to make you understand that the fact that two things go together does not mean that one of the two is the cause of nothing. It may be the other.
For example, capitalism may be a criminal economic system. I'm not saying no. But it doesn't follow from the fact that Germany was a capitalist country under the Nazis. We will have to look for other reasons. Therefore, the fact that China is a communist-Marxist (that's what they say) and an atheist country doesn't mean that atheism is the cause of everything that happens there. You will have to look for other reasons if you want to convince someone who is not an anti-atheist fanatic. If you think a little you will see that it is easy to understand. If you think a little, of course. |
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#256 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
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#257 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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In a real Marxist country we are all millionaires!
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#258 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,767
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#259 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 12,311
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On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order." On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation." On 15 FEB 2019 BobTheCoward said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma. |
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#260 |
I say nay!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,592
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I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "01010100 00110100 01110110 01101101 00110111 01100111 01010010 00110110 00001101 00001010" Said the robot gleefully as he went on his rampage. |
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#261 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,767
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It was a hopeful post, every the optimist...
Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity. China (majority population) do not view religions beliefs as something separate to their culture and society, over centuries religious beliefs have been incorporated into the state itself and into culture and society so they become one and the same. This is why expressions of a say Christianity with big red crosses on top of buildings in clear site really jars them, they see this as an external threat and it is being imposed by external powers. They probably wouldn't consider the fact that most of their buildings and layouts will have been developed with more than a nod to their religious beliefs as the same because it is so deeply embedded in society and the why they think. (Of course the above is a huge generalisation to try and explain a broad point about a very nuanced topic.) |
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#262 | |||
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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But what TBD says comes from unimpeachable sources:
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#263 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,029
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My misunderstanding? That is laughable.
Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread. That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center. |
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#264 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,816
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China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me. |
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Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t. |
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#265 |
Hyperthetical
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,490
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A zømbie once bit my sister... |
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#266 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,816
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Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t. |
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#267 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#268 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,029
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Quote:
I just realized that my posts in this thread would undoubtedly subject me to incarceration and forced acceptance of Firm Marxist Atheism in China. |
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#269 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 21,714
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If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves. |
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#270 |
Lackey
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#271 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
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#272 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,049
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Where do you see the word 'mandated'?
I do see 'guided'. which isn't the same thing. |
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There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
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#273 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,620
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Your pleasure is unjustified. This text makes reference to what the members of CCP must be. Nothing about the whole society. The article 36 of Chinese Constitution have been put here that claims a "religious tolerance" towards any cult that doesn't disturb the "communist" government.
You can say that tolerance is scarcely tolerant in China. May be. Like the Communist Party is scarcely communist and Mr. Xi's Marxism is scarcely Marxist. In China "Communism", "Marxism" and "atheism" are sheer propaganda. Just like your pamphlets in this forum, to give you an idea. By the way, when are you going to answer my objections? You seem a little forgetful. Perhaps they make you a little uncomfortable... |
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#274 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
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#275 |
Illuminator
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#276 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,797
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Should = mandate?
If the president told you that you should be atheist, would that change your beliefs? Would you then be an atheist? Heck, even if the president mandated that you be an atheist, would you then be an atheist? Do you think that is how religion and belief works? |
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#277 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,029
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HI! we are talking about China, are we not? (answer, yes we are)
Is China known for, among other things, putting a million Muslims in reeducation camps? Yes. Was their abusive treatment of religious the subject of a recent scathing human rights report? Yep! Is religious persecution in China A Symptom Of Xi's Consolidation Of Power? Oh hell yes As such, when Xi says the CCP "should" do something and "must not" do something? Yeah, y'all better do what he says. Nice, tho, that skeptics can quibble about words in a thread about one of the worst human rights violations since the Cultural revolution. Sure they through a million muslims into camps, but on the other hand TBD used the word "mandate' and that is what we really need to focus on, because I really did not like that word. |
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#278 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,797
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So a Chinese official who was religious prior to Xi's shouldate is now an atheist?
Again, is that how you think beliefs work? I can't tell if you don't understand the word "atheist" or if you can't understand that a Chinese official may be just as committed to his faith as you are? |
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#279 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,029
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Cool! We are off the "mandate" part.
Now we are on to "how you think beliefs work?" Because how TBD thinks they work is "TEH KEY!" as opposed to, oh I dunno, asking how the Chinese think it works, and how they think it works is that they make people renounce their faith, blow up their churches, restrict their ability to use the internet and put them in reeducation camps. Oh and they kill tens of thousands of Falun Gong. |
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#280 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,485
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I still assume that this is supposed to mean that Karl Marx's Capital - A Critique of Political Economy is the "Atheist Bible," but not only does Karl Marx have surprisingly little to say about churches, as I already pointed out and quoted in post 250, he also has disappointingly little to say about atheism in the "Atheist Bible." This I all I could find:
Quote:
I included an awful lot of context in the next and last quoation where atheism is mentioned, just to make sure that you don't miss anything:
Quote:
That's how much atheism is mentioned in the alleged "Atheist Bible"!!! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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