Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

[dann]

PS
Let me answer it for you, TBD!

"´k"

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

"The abolition of religion, as the illusory happiness of the people, is the demand for their real happiness."

Marx

I agree.

But I don't want to kill anyone.

[David Mo]

Dear Big Dog. I think you have forgoten a previous comment. I would be glad if you answer my objection:

Chinese government’s persecution against some Christian sects is due to atheism or repressive politics.
If the Chinese government’s persecution against this Christian sect was due to atheism no religion would be tolerated in China.
The Chinese government doesn’t persecute some religions.
The Chinese government persecutes other social movements that are not religious.
Then, Chinese government’s attacks against some Christian sects are not due to its atheism, but to its repressive politics.

Your routine mantra no, please! Something like a logical answer, if possible.

[dann]

Originally Posted by David Mo

OK:
Germany was a capitalist country in 1940
Germans killed 6 million Jews.
Capitalism killed 6 million Jews.
Capitalism is antisemitic and genocide.
Danemark is a capitalist country,
Danish people are antisemitic and genocide.

This is the Big Dog's logic.

No, I don't think so. My guess is that TBD will deny that Germany was a capitalist country and claim that it was an atheist country instead. And that Denmark is a capitalist country that used to be Christian.

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by David Mo

OK:
Germany was a capitalist country in 1940
Germans killed 6 million Jews.
Capitalism killed 6 million Jews.
Capitalism is antisemitic and genocide.
Danemark is a capitalist country,
Danish people are antisemitic and genocide.

This is the Big Dog's logic.

Snerk, yeah no.

Hoo boy, every single thing including OK was wrong.

We have literally entered the point where people are claiming that Nazi fascism is capitalism in order to derail a discussion about Marxism atheism persecuting religious people in communist China.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Ah, well, it is just that these Marxist Atheists states have a very recurrent perception that religion is a threat, perhaps it has something to do with the marxism part?

"The abolition of religion, as the illusory happiness of the people, is the demand for their real happiness."

You really don't get it, do you? The point of this sentence is that the abolition of religion isn't really a battle against religion. See my sig line: "The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."

The abolition of religion is a battle to abolish the miserable conditions that make people need religion. When people are actually happy (and not just pretend happy like in church) because their actual lives are happy, religion will die out - as it is already doing all over the world as soon as societies start approaching this condition.
It is actually the exact opposite of religious persecution!
(And religious persecution doesn't abolish religion. As you can learn from the story of Ancient Rome it has the opposite effect ...

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Criticizing the Marxist atheist crackdown on religious is “hate speech.”

Firm Marxist atheists just cracking down on “dissidents.”

We have not a problem with your anti-communism. Our problem is with trying to make you reasoning about atheism.

You make an irrational assumption that atheism is the cause of the police state in China. We have made some logical objections. You don’t reply, but continue with your mantra again and again. I don’t know whether you don’t understand the objections or you don’t want understand them. Or both.

Please, answer my previous objections. Do you really think that Danish government are anti-Semitic and genocide? Go on, please.

[dann]

Originally Posted by dann

No, I don't think so. My guess is that TBD will deny that Germany was a capitalist country and claim that it was an atheist country instead. And that Denmark is a capitalist country that used to be Christian.

Well, at least I got it right that Nazi capitalism isn't capitalism in TBD's book. I guess that the rest was too complicated to be useful for her.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Snerk, yeah no.

Hoo boy, every single thing including OK was wrong.

We have literally entered the point where people are claiming that Nazi fascism is capitalism in order to derail a discussion about Marxism atheism persecuting religious people in communist China.

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by dann

No, I don't think so. My guess is that TBD will deny that Germany was a capitalist country and claim that it was an atheist country instead. And that Denmark is a capitalist country that used to be Christian.

Oh yes!
Then we can conclude that Lutherans are antisemitic and genocide! In Big Dog's logic system, of course.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

heehee!

Say, the Big Dog is dragging the accusations of hate speech and slander and the other nonsense atheist snowflakes have raised in this thread which concerns Marxist Atheists putting a million people in detention.

Pointing out that atheists put a million people in detention is teh hate speech!

Dragging that **** covered atrocity in front atheists is the real problem here!

god damn....

Hilarious! Bravóóóóó!


Now you have to convince us you're not an atheist (and a Marxist automaton -really felt Marxism is a religion itself-), because we only have your word you aren't. Nobody can point to any post in any thread at any time where you show any kind of real religious faith or knowledge about any religious faith, what have led some of us to think you might be one of those nominal Catholics for showing purposes. That's been your world class act for some time now, wrapped in a shiny "the lady protest too much".

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Yes. Let's have something from the Atheist Bible please. Chapter and verse.

I'll wait.

Better having him quoting something anything appropriate to the thread's subject from the Bible or the Koran. He'd suffer a short circuit.

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Hoo boy, every single thing including OK was wrong.

We have literally entered the point where people are claiming that Nazi fascism is capitalism in order to derail a discussion about Marxism atheism persecuting religious people in communist China.

What the mistake is?
Atheist communism is criminal. Then, atheism is criminal.
Nazi capitalism is criminal. Then, capitalism is criminal.

It's raining and I'm cold. Then when it rains it's cold.
Where the mistake is?

(A little teaching of inductive logic)

[dann]

Originally Posted by David Mo

We have not a problem with your anti-communism.

Well, I do! TBD is as wrong about Marxism as it's possible to be. As proved above.

[dann]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

(and a Marxist automaton -really felt Marxism is a religion itself-)

Could you point out where Marx writes anything of a religious nature? Preferably in Capital, his masterpiece.

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

We have literally entered the point where people are claiming that Nazi fascism is capitalism in order to derail a discussion about Marxism atheism persecuting religious people in communist China.

Nobody's trying to derail anything. We try to make you understand that the fact that two things go together does not mean that one of the two is the cause of nothing. It may be the other.
For example, capitalism may be a criminal economic system. I'm not saying no. But it doesn't follow from the fact that Germany was a capitalist country under the Nazis. We will have to look for other reasons.
Therefore, the fact that China is a communist-Marxist (that's what they say) and an atheist country doesn't mean that atheism is the cause of everything that happens there. You will have to look for other reasons if you want to convince someone who is not an anti-atheist fanatic.

If you think a little you will see that it is easy to understand. If you think a little, of course.

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by dann

Well, I do! TBD is as wrong about Marxism as it's possible to be. As proved above.

I agree about the Big Dog's ignorance on Marxism. He thinks the absurd commonplace that Chinese governent's politics is inspired by Marx's communism. A strange Marxist country full of millionaires!

[dann]

In a real Marxist country we are all millionaires!

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

No,

Think of it like a Venn diagram.

The subset of the people responsible for this atrocity all fall directly within the set of "atheist."

Evidence?

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

“The subject”

Oh man...

And I thought the subject was the the Chinese crackdown on religious people in China.

Guess not, huh, folks.

How absolutely horrible for you!

[Nay_Sayer]

Originally Posted by Darat

Evidence?

Wait, that was a serious request, wasn't it?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer

https://i.imgur.com/vVkoPPU.gif

Wait, that was a serious request, wasn't it?

It was a hopeful post, every the optimist...

Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity.

China (majority population) do not view religions beliefs as something separate to their culture and society, over centuries religious beliefs have been incorporated into the state itself and into culture and society so they become one and the same. This is why expressions of a say Christianity with big red crosses on top of buildings in clear site really jars them, they see this as an external threat and it is being imposed by external powers. They probably wouldn't consider the fact that most of their buildings and layouts will have been developed with more than a nod to their religious beliefs as the same because it is so deeply embedded in society and the why they think.

(Of course the above is a huge generalisation to try and explain a broad point about a very nuanced topic.)

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Darat

Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity.

But what TBD says comes from unimpeachable sources:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by Darat

It was a hopeful post, every the optimist...

Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity.

China (majority population) do not view religions beliefs as something separate to their culture and society, over centuries religious beliefs have been incorporated into the state itself and into culture and society so they become one and the same. This is why expressions of a say Christianity with big red crosses on top of buildings in clear site really jars them, they see this as an external threat and it is being imposed by external powers. They probably wouldn't consider the fact that most of their buildings and layouts will have been developed with more than a nod to their religious beliefs as the same because it is so deeply embedded in society and the why they think.

(Of course the above is a huge generalisation to try and explain a broad point about a very nuanced topic.)

My misunderstanding? That is laughable.

Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread.

That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center.

[The Great Zaganza]

China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Dont'cha get it? Confucians are atheists because they don't believe in Jeee-zus!

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Myriad

Dont'cha get it? Confucians are atheists because they don't believe in Jeee-zus!

my mistake.

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Who sees a massive flaw in this reasoning? Hint "A."

[The Big Dog]

Quote:

BEIJING — China is rolling out new rules on religious activity on the internet amid an ongoing crackdown on churches, mosques and other institutions by the officially atheist Communist Party.

Anyone wishing to provide religious instruction or similar services online must apply by name and be judged morally fit and politically reliable, according to draft regulations posted online late Monday by the State Administration for Religious Affairs.

China tightens online religious activity rules

I just realized that my posts in this thread would undoubtedly subject me to incarceration and forced acceptance of Firm Marxist Atheism in China.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

My misunderstanding? That is laughable.

Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread.

That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center.

I'm afraid I missed the post where you documented the highlighted part. Would you be so kind as to point me to it?

Hans

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

My misunderstanding? That is laughable.

Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread.

That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center.

All I can do is lead you to the water - the rest is up to you.

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

What is causing religious people to be persecuted by the Official Atheist state? Religion of course. I did respond to your comment about sinicize of course, shall I quote the article again?

No, I will go one better!

“Xi said that the key to the CCP’s policy on religious affairs is “the way of guidance,” which should be “effective, powerful, and proactive.” Chinese youth in particular, Xi said, must be guided to “believe in science, study science, spread science, and to have a correct worldview.” As for CCP members, they “should be firm Marxist atheists and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.”

https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/chin...ions-in-china/

Firm Marxist atheists

Golly folks, I wonder what Sinicize means in the context of the pogrom against Religious in China. Pro tip: atheism.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

I'm afraid I missed the post where you documented the highlighted part. Would you be so kind as to point me to it?

Hans

My pleasure!

[fagin]

Where do you see the word 'mandated'?

I do see 'guided'. which isn't the same thing.

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

My pleasure!

Your pleasure is unjustified. This text makes reference to what the members of CCP must be. Nothing about the whole society. The article 36 of Chinese Constitution have been put here that claims a "religious tolerance" towards any cult that doesn't disturb the "communist" government.
You can say that tolerance is scarcely tolerant in China. May be. Like the Communist Party is scarcely communist and Mr. Xi's Marxism is scarcely Marxist.
In China "Communism", "Marxism" and "atheism" are sheer propaganda. Just like your pamphlets in this forum, to give you an idea.

By the way, when are you going to answer my objections? You seem a little forgetful. Perhaps they make you a little uncomfortable...

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by fagin

Where do you see the word 'mandated'?

I do see 'guided'. which isn't the same thing.

As for CCP members, they “should be firm Marxist atheists and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.

[David Mo]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

...and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.”

It is a good idea. I subscribe it.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

As for CCP members, they “should be firm Marxist atheists and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.

Should = mandate?

If the president told you that you should be atheist, would that change your beliefs? Would you then be an atheist?

Heck, even if the president mandated that you be an atheist, would you then be an atheist?

Do you think that is how religion and belief works?

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Should = mandate?

If the president told you that you should be atheist, would that change your beliefs? Would you then be an atheist?

Heck, even if the president mandated that you be an atheist, would you then be an atheist?

Do you think that is how religion and belief works?

HI! we are talking about China, are we not? (answer, yes we are)

Is China known for, among other things, putting a million Muslims in reeducation camps? Yes. Was their abusive treatment of religious the subject of a recent scathing human rights report? Yep!

Is religious persecution in China A Symptom Of Xi's Consolidation Of Power? Oh hell yes

As such, when Xi says the CCP "should" do something and "must not" do something? Yeah, y'all better do what he says.

Nice, tho, that skeptics can quibble about words in a thread about one of the worst human rights violations since the Cultural revolution.

Sure they through a million muslims into camps, but on the other hand TBD used the word "mandate' and that is what we really need to focus on, because I really did not like that word.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

HI! we are talking about China, are we not? (answer, yes we are)

Is China known for, among other things, putting a million Muslims in reeducation camps? Yes. Was their abusive treatment of religious the subject of a recent scathing human rights report? Yep!

Is religious persecution in China A Symptom Of Xi's Consolidation Of Power? Oh hell yes

As such, when Xi says the CCP "should" do something and "must not" do something? Yeah, y'all better do what he says.

Nice, tho, that skeptics can quibble about words in a thread about one of the worst human rights violations since the Cultural revolution.

Sure they through a million muslims into camps, but on the other hand TBD used the word "mandate' and that is what we really need to focus on, because I really did not like that word.

So a Chinese official who was religious prior to Xi's shouldate is now an atheist?

Again, is that how you think beliefs work?

I can't tell if you don't understand the word "atheist" or if you can't understand that a Chinese official may be just as committed to his faith as you are?

[The Big Dog]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

So a Chinese official who was religious prior to Xi's shouldate is now an atheist?

Again, is that how you think beliefs work?

I can't tell if you don't understand the word "atheist" or if you can't understand that a Chinese official may be just as committed to his faith as you are?

Cool! We are off the "mandate" part.

Now we are on to "how you think beliefs work?" Because how TBD thinks they work is "TEH KEY!"

as opposed to, oh I dunno, asking how the Chinese think it works, and how they think it works is that they make people renounce their faith, blow up their churches, restrict their ability to use the internet and put them in reeducation camps.

Oh and they kill tens of thousands of Falun Gong.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Lets go to the Atheist Bible.... little red book version?
(...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

I still assume that this is supposed to mean that Karl Marx's Capital - A Critique of Political Economy is the "Atheist Bible," but not only does Karl Marx have surprisingly little to say about churches, as I already pointed out and quoted in post 250, he also has disappointingly little to say about atheism in the "Atheist Bible." This I all I could find:

Quote:

In the domain of Political Economy, free scientific inquiry meets not merely the same enemies as in all other domains. The peculiar nature of the materials it deals with, summons as foes into the field of battle the most violent, mean and malignant passions of the human breast, the Furies of private interest. The English Established Church, e.g., will more readily pardon an attack on 38 of its 39 articles than on 1/39 of its income. Now-a-days atheism is culpa levis [a relatively slight sin, c.f. mortal sin], as compared with criticism of existing property relations.
(Preface to the first German edition)

I included an awful lot of context in the next and last quoation where atheism is mentioned, just to make sure that you don't miss anything:

Quote:

Dr. Horne, Bishop of Norwich, reproves Adam Smith, because in a published letter to Mr. Strahan, he “embalmed his friend David” (sc. Hume); because he told the world how “Hume amused himself on his deathbed with Lucian and Whist,” and because he even had the impudence to write of Hume: “I have always considered him, both in his life-time and since his death, as approaching as nearly to the idea of a perfectly wise and virtuous man, as, perhaps, the nature of human frailty will permit.” The bishop cries out, in a passion: "Is it right in you, Sir, to hold up to our view as 'perfectly wise and virtuous,' the character and conduct of one, who seems to have been possessed with an incurable antipathy to all that is called Religion; and who strained every nerve to explode, suppression and extirpate the spirit of it among men, that its very name, if he could effect it, might no more be had in remembrance?" (l.c., p. 8) "But let not the lovers of truth be discouraged. Atheism cannot be of long continuance." (p. 17.) Adam Smith "had the atrocious wickedness to propagate atheism through the land (viz., by his "Theory of Moral Sentiments"). Upon the whole, Doctor, your meaning is good; but I think you will not succeed this time. You would persuade us, by the example of David Hume, Esq., that atheism is the only cordial for low spirits, and the proper antidote against the fear of death ... You may smile over Babylon in the ruins and congratulate the hardened Pharaoh on the overthrow in the Red Sea." (l. c., pp. 21, 22.) One orthodox individual, amongst Adam Smith’s college friends, writes after his death: “Smith’s well-placed affection for Hume … hindered him from being a Christian. … When he met with honest men whom he liked … he would believe almost anything they said. Had he been a friend of the worthy ingenious Horrox he would have believed that the moon some times disappeared in a clear sky without the interposition of a cloud. … He approached to republicanism in this political principles.” (“The Bee.” By James Anderson, 18 Vols., Vol 3. pp. 166, 165, Edinburgh, 1791-93.)
(Chapter 33: The Modern Theory of Colonisation)

That's how much atheism is mentioned in the alleged "Atheist Bible"!!!