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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees

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Old 1st October 2018, 07:04 AM   #1
The Great Zaganza
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Lessons to be learned from the Kavanaugh Hearing

Preface:
I wanted to make a separate thread for the lesson for Democrats and the lessons for Republicans, but we have enough divisiveness already.
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Old 1st October 2018, 07:05 AM   #2
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Lesson for Nominees:

if you have calendars from your Highschool years - don't show them. Burn them to be on the safe side.
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Old 1st October 2018, 07:15 AM   #3
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The greatest lesson I've learned as an outsider is that the US justice system is even more politicized and partisan than I thought. The US is thus not a nation of laws. I don't know what should be blamed for this, but I suspect the fault lies in your veneration for the US constitution and especially originalist readings of said 200+ year old document.
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Old 1st October 2018, 07:37 AM   #4
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At the lowest levels of the US justice system, former prosecutors run for judge by proclaiming how tough on crime they were as prosecutors. It just gets worse from there.

Sorry, nothing to add on the actual topic at the moment.
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Old 1st October 2018, 07:46 AM   #5
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Lessons to be learned. Never talk **** in your year book. All politicians are ****. The process has been marred, and I hope some bipartisan regulations are made so that another fiasco like this never happens.
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Old 1st October 2018, 07:55 AM   #6
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I hope that the nation is learning that these elite prep schools and Ivy league schools are cess pits. Plenty of very smart, very ambitious people that are absolutely vile. A good pedigree doesn't mean they are good people.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:24 AM   #7
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If you come forward to report on the character flaws of someone before the Senate expect your life to be ruined. Your home, your career, your whole life will be ripped up by the roots and displaced. And to make it even better, you will be blamed for not ruining your life sooner.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:30 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I hope that the nation is learning that these elite prep schools and Ivy league schools are cess pits. Plenty of very smart, very ambitious people that are absolutely vile. A good pedigree doesn't mean they are good people.
I went to a cheap flyover version of such a school. I agree, but there were also some really great men in my class. I think every class has a mix of the Gorsuchs and the Kavenaughs. Mine certainly did.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
If you come forward to report on the character flaws of someone before the Senate expect your life to be ruined. Your home, your career, your whole life will be ripped up by the roots and displaced. And to make it even better, you will be blamed for not ruining your life sooner.

Ruined?

As of Friday morning Dr. Ford's GoFundMe campaign had raised more than $700,000. Not bad when consider her attorneys are working pro bono.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:43 AM   #10
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I learned all about the "I studied really, really hard and lifted weights with Squi" defense.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:45 AM   #11
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The "mojo" is back!
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:49 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Ruined?

As of Friday morning Dr. Ford's GoFundMe campaign had raised more than $700,000. Not bad when consider her attorneys are working pro bono.
She's received a number of death threats, she and her family have gone into hiding. Alternate housing plus security ain't free.

Lawyers are the least of her expenses right now.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:54 AM   #13
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I've learned that reanimating an unfinished civil war isn't so hard to bring back to fruition afterall.

It just takes patience long enough for the other guy to finally realize you've been whizzing on his leg the entire time you had him holding up his umbrella convinced it was raining.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Ruined?

As of Friday morning Dr. Ford's GoFundMe campaign had raised more than $700,000. Not bad when consider her attorneys are working pro bono.
So, assuming she and her family get that money deposited into her saving account, would you trade that for having to hire security and move your family at a moments notice to an undisclosed location and then forever be hounded by people who actually believe in pizzagate and that Sandy Hook was fake? I wouldn't.

My wife an I have careers, we make decent money and like our home and our neighborhood and our kids' schools. I've been offered more money to move and declined it every time. This would be devastating to me and my family, but maybe your kids would enjoy losing all their friends. Different strokes, I suppose.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Lawyers are the least of her expenses right now.

Agreed. Vacationing in exotic locales can be quite spendy.
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:05 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The greatest lesson I've learned as an outsider is that the US justice system is even more politicized and partisan than I thought. The US is thus not a nation of laws. I don't know what should be blamed for this, but I suspect the fault lies in your veneration for the US constitution and especially originalist readings of said 200+ year old document.
You have that exactly backwards. It is exclusively the Democrats, not Republicans, who launch these vicious personal attacks against judicial nominees. The Democrats whined endlessly (and to this day) about Republicans blocking Garland, but the Republicans never said one bad thing about Garland himself. The toxicity comes from an abandonment of constitutional principles, not from adherence to them.
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:09 AM   #17
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have that exactly backwards. It is exclusively the Democrats, not Republicans, who launch these vicious personal attacks against judicial nominees. The Democrats whined endlessly (and to this day) about Republicans blocking Garland, but the Republicans never said one bad thing about Garland himself. The toxicity comes from an abandonment of constitutional principles, not from adherence to them.
Strawman

Garland never got his Constitutionally proscribed hearing, so there was never any need to judge him.
Republicans literally didn't thought him worth even considering.

Compared to that Kavanaugh has it easy - from Ford.
The Democrats are not the ones making the accusation.
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:11 AM   #18
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Did they demand to see Kavenaugh's birth certificate?
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have that exactly backwards. It is exclusively the Democrats, not Republicans, who launch these vicious personal attacks against judicial nominees.
Yeah, Republicans just refuse to consider those nominees, instead. And I'll remind you that Gorsusch, or whatever his name is, didn't have to go through all this.



Can we stop with the partisan rhetoric and whataboutism now?
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah,
Can we stop with the partisan rhetoric and whataboutism now?
They'd have to stop posting then because it's all they have. I wish people here would stop giving the disingenuous posters attention by responding to their posts.
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The greatest lesson I've learned as an outsider is that the US justice system is even more politicized and partisan than I thought. The US is thus not a nation of laws. I don't know what should be blamed for this, but I suspect the fault lies in your veneration for the US constitution and especially originalist readings of said 200+ year old document.
We're not a nation of laws because we follow the law as laid out in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

Maybe a touch of the old Bastinado would have got the truth out of Kavanaugh?
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Strawman
I don't think you know what that term means. It certainly doesn't apply here.

Quote:
Garland never got his Constitutionally proscribed hearing
The constitution doesn't proscribe a hearing.

Quote:
Compared to that Kavanaugh has it easy - from Ford.
The Democrats are not the ones making the accusation.
Kavanaugh is getting his name dragged through the mud by Democrats. They are absolutely making the accusations. And those accusations are intended to personally destroy Kavanaugh.

The assertion that he has it easy compared to Garland is laughable on its face. What impact did the refusal to hold hearings on Garland have on Garland? It prevented him from getting a position on the Supreme Court, but otherwise it did nothing to him. His reputation hasn't been besmirched, he hasn't had his personal life put under a microscope, he hasn't had his children publicly attacked.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:01 PM   #23
The Great Zaganza
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You think Kavanaugh wants to swap with Garland?
Didn't think so.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:02 PM   #24
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Lessons

1. Follow the procedures of precedent, don't make it up as you go along.

2. Vet ALL nominees thoroughly.

3. Release ALL documentation in the nominee's paper trail; show that there is nothing to hide.

4. When a nominee equivocates and refuses to answer direct, relevant questions about past and possible future judicial decisions, end the process right there and decline the nomination.

5. The moment a nominee lies about anything under oath, end the process right there and decline the nomination.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:03 PM   #25
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Lessons that will never be learned here
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, Republicans just refuse to consider those nominees, instead.
Which is far, far less toxic that what's going on now.

Quote:
And I'll remind you that Gorsusch, or whatever his name is, didn't have to go through all this.
Likely because there were no midterms that Dems could hope to delay past. But it could be because the Dems have just become that much more toxic.

Quote:
Can we stop with the partisan rhetoric and whataboutism now?
No, Belz, we cannot. Because I didn't start it. Had you addressed that objection to the one who did, then perhaps we could find some common ground. Unsurprisingly, you did not.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Kavanaugh is getting his name dragged through the mud by Democrats. They are absolutely making the accusations.
I thought the accusations came from alledged victims of Kavanaugh?

Quote:
And those accusations are intended to personally destroy Kavanaugh.
Why didn't they do it to the previous nominee?

Face it, Kavanaugh made himself look horrible at the hearing last week. He had the opportunity to take it like a man and appear reasonable, turning the lack of evidence against him into an advantage. He blew it.

Quote:
The assertion that he has it easy compared to Garland is laughable on its face.
Now that's a strawman.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:06 PM   #28
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You think Kavanaugh wants to swap with Garland?
I've got no idea, nor is that my claim. My claim is that the process now is doing far more damage to Kavanaugh than it did to Garland. Do you dispute this?
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:09 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Kavanaugh is getting his name dragged through the mud by Democrats. They are absolutely making the accusations. And those accusations are intended to personally destroy Kavanaugh.
No, a number of women are making accusations against him, and the fact that he has piled lie, upon lie, upon lie is the reason why his name is being sullied.

The lesson for him, and for other potential nominees is.. be honest. Answer questions truthfully, and without dodging or equivocation. If he had been honest about his heavy drinking when he was and school and college instead of trying to paint himself as some kind of noble choir boy, he would have garnered a ton more respect. He, and he alone is the reason he finds himself in the position he is now.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:12 PM   #30
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I'm worried that all the Republicans have learned since Anita Hill is to be polite to the female witness before completely ignoring her.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:13 PM   #31
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've got no idea, nor is that my claim. My claim is that the process now is doing far more damage to Kavanaugh than it did to Garland. Do you dispute this?
Yes I do.

If Garland had it better than Kavanaugh, why wouldn't he want to swap?
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Kavanaugh is getting his name dragged through the mud by Democrats. They are absolutely making the accusations. And those accusations are intended to personally destroy Kavanaugh.

.
I thought Dr. Ford was making the allegation. Do you believe her to be a political operative?
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:15 PM   #33
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Like I said, the 2016 election just broke some people on both sides of the aisle.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:17 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I thought the accusations came from alledged victims of Kavanaugh?
You say that like Ford is out there alone, the only one saying anything. She's not. She has been given a platform by the Democrats, who have cynically advanced and exploited her claims in a manner that, if her claims were true, would constitute a gross miscarriage of justice against her.

Ford isn't remotely credible and is only getting attention because of the Democrats, but the other accusers are simply laughable.

Quote:
Why didn't they do it to the previous nominee?
I just told you. See the previous post.

Quote:
Face it, Kavanaugh made himself look horrible at the hearing last week. He had the opportunity to take it like a man and appear reasonable, turning the lack of evidence against him into an advantage. He blew it.
That's bull ****. Nobody is ever under any obligation to just roll over for abuse and slander. You also seem to be forgetting that the abuse didn't start with Ford either. Remember all those protesters that marred the beginning of his hearings? They weren't just random nutjobs. Those were people specifically given access to the hearings by the Democrats, for the purpose of doing exactly what they did. There's no issue of "evidence" involved there.

You're basically trying to create a Kafka-like standard: mistreat a man, and if he objects to his mistreatment, then that ends up justifying the mistreatment.

Quote:
Now that's a strawman.
No, it isn't. It's what The Great Zaganza said: Kavanaugh had it easy compared to Garland. Go back and read his post.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've got no idea, nor is that my claim. My claim is that the process now is doing far more damage to Kavanaugh than it did to Garland. Do you dispute this?
I'd say most of the damage was done by Kavanaugh. He could have taken the high road and come out of this looking like a Justice. Instead he started foaming at the mouth and Graham had to yell at people so that Kav didn't look so stupid by comparison.

You can see it in his wife's eyes: why are you going down this path?
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:20 PM   #36
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You say that like Ford is out there alone, the only one saying anything. She's not. She has been given a platform by the Democrats, who have cynically advanced and exploited her claims in a manner that, if her claims were true, would constitute a gross miscarriage of justice against her.
Uh-huh. How is that relevant to whether her accusations are true?

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Ford isn't remotely credible
Oh? Why not?

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That's bull ****. Nobody is ever under any obligation to just roll over for abuse and slander.
Already addressed: no, but you're supposed to act like you have a thick enough skin to be able to handle the kind of job you're applying for. He showed himself an immature, thin-skinned narcissist. You know, like Obama.

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You're basically trying to create a Kafka-like standard: mistreat a man, and if he objects to his mistreatment, then that ends up justifying the mistreatment.
I've given a very short example of what he could've said at the hearing that would've made him look humble and level-headed earlier today. So it's not like a frothing-at-the-mouth rant was his only option.

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No, it isn't. It's what The Great Zaganza said: Kavanaugh had it easy compared to Garland. Go back and read his post.
I did, and that's not what he said, unless I missed a different post. If I did, I disagree with him.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:23 PM   #37
dmaker
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're basically trying to create a Kafka-like standard: mistreat a man, and if he objects to his mistreatment, then that ends up justifying the mistreatment.

.
Lying under oath is now objecting to mistreatment?
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:23 PM   #38
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ford isn't remotely credible
So you think she is lying?
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:25 PM   #39
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yes I do.
On what possible grounds?

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If Garland had it better than Kavanaugh, why wouldn't he want to swap?
I just called you out on your attempt to substitute one claim for another, and now you try it again. Did you think I wouldn't notice?

I've got no idea of whether or not he would want to swap. It depends on how much he values a supreme court seat, and that is unknowable from the outside, including to you. If they value the seat differently, it's even possible that neither would want to switch or that both would want to switch (meaning that they could both prefer their own situation or they could both prefer the others').

But I never made any claim related to or dependent upon how much either of them values a SC seat. My claim was only about the nomination process itself. If claiming a $100 million lottery required that you get your hand chopped off, some people would probably still do it. That doesn't make it OK to chop off the hands of lottery winners.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:26 PM   #40
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So you think she is lying?
Likely but not for certain. It's quite possible she believes what she's saying. But it is very, very unlikely that her claims are actually true.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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