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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees

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Old 3rd October 2018, 10:55 AM   #361
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you really feel that Kavanaugh's confirmation is such a threat that you have to straw man any arguments in his favor?

You're pushing a standard where accusations without any evidence to support them are enough to derail a nomination. You might think that you can apply this standard to only conservative nominees, but 1) I won't have a part in that, and 2) if it works this time, it will be tried against every single nominee from now on, including liberal ones.
This is nonsense. I have no delusions that Trump would nominate a moderate. I know that he would pick another dinosaur to take liar boy's place.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:03 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is nonsense. I have no delusions that Trump would nominate a moderate. I know that he would pick another dinosaur to take liar boy's place.
That's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You think Trump will be president forever? You think tactics which have been demonstrated to work will be abandoned?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:07 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You think Trump will be president forever? You think tactics which have been demonstrated to work will be abandoned?
Refusing to confirm anybody of the opposite party on that grounds alone has already worked. You think that's not going to happen every time the president's party isn't the majority?

And whether K gets confirmed or not, do you imagine Republicans won't at least attempt the same thing with a Democrat prospect? Assuming there ever is a hearing for one.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:09 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You think Trump will be president forever? You think tactics which have been demonstrated to work will be abandoned?
One quick and easy remedy is to investigate and prosecute all these alleged cases of perjury.

Strange that the Republicans aren’t expressing much of a desire for that course of action…
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:20 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Refusing to confirm anybody of the opposite party on that grounds alone has already worked. You think that's not going to happen every time the president's party isn't the majority?
No, I don't think that. Sotomayor got 9 Republican votes, Kagan got 5 Republican votes. Garland sets a pretty limited precedent.

But if accusations without evidence suffice, then the process isn't controlled by the majority anymore. It will be hijacked by radicals.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 3rd October 2018 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Changed "with" to "without
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:21 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, I don't think that. Sotomayor got 9 Republican votes, Kagan got 5 Republican votes. Garland sets a pretty limited precedent.

But if accusations with evidence suffice, then the process isn't controlled by the majority anymore. It will be hijacked by radicals.
I assume you meant 'without'.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:22 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You think Trump will be president forever? You think tactics which have been demonstrated to work will be abandoned?
Of course it does. You're questioning our motives for opposing whiney liar boy. As if we don't know that Trump has 2 more years left in his term and there is a full 3 months with the present Senate to push through the nomination through if they are concerned about the mid terms.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:23 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Yes, The PDJT was very clear on that point in his sickening rally speech tonight.
The one where he set a new record for number of lies per minute?

* * *

Skimming over much of the last couple of pages that have gone by since my last look here, I see that the desperation of the deplorables has propelled them way past "reasonable doubt" and into "preposterously contrived pseudo-doubt". Just the amount of mental work & contortion this is requiring should have been a red flag by now even to themselves.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:36 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're pushing a standard where accusations without any evidence to support them are enough to derail a nomination.
Except of course there is evidence to support the allegations. You may not think its enough to (for example) convict in a court of law. But that doesn't mean that evidence does not exist.

Quote:
You might think that you can apply this standard to only conservative nominees, but 1) I won't have a part in that, and 2) if it works this time, it will be tried against every single nominee from now on, including liberal ones.
And you forgot to mention 3) rapists deserve to be on the supreme court. (You didn't say so explicitly but I'm pretty sure Kavanaugh supporters believe that.)

Strangely enough, even though the nomination of Gorsuch was extremely unpopular among Democrats and others on the political left (and I think Gorsuch even went to the same prep school, so they had similar upbringings), no such accusations of sexual improprieties occurred with him. Why do you think that is?

Do you think it just didn't occur to anyone on the left to make such an unfounded accusation against Gorsuch? Or do you accept the more likely explanation that Kavanaugh probably did do the things he was accused of.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:38 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The one where he set a new record for number of lies per minute?

* * *

Skimming over much of the last couple of pages that have gone by since my last look here, I see that the desperation of the deplorables has propelled them way past "reasonable doubt" and into "preposterously contrived pseudo-doubt". Just the amount of mental work & contortion this is requiring should have been a red flag by now even to themselves.
I had the same reaction after not reading the thread for about 24 hrs. The desperation to find an excuse, any excuse, for Kav's lying about those terms struck me as being embarrassingly ridiculous.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:49 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And you forgot to mention 3) rapists deserve to be on the supreme court. (You didn't say so explicitly but I'm pretty sure Kavanaugh supporters believe that.)
Kavanaugh wasn't accused of rape by Ford. And most of his supporters think he didn't rape or sexually assault anyone. You can think they are wrong, and you can even think they are wrong because of partisan bias, but it's simply not a serious accusation to say they want a rapist on the Supreme Court, anymore than you can say Democrats want rapists in the White House.

Quote:
Strangely enough, even though the nomination of Gorsuch was extremely unpopular among Democrats and others on the political left (and I think Gorsuch even went to the same prep school, so they had similar upbringings), no such accusations of sexual improprieties occurred with him. Why do you think that is?
Because he was still a Democratic nominee, not a Republican one, and because that sort of personal attack has so far been a tool of the left, not the right. You can expect that to change if this attack on Kavanaugh succeeds.

Quote:
Do you think it just didn't occur to anyone on the left to make such an unfounded accusation against Gorsuch?
Obviously. Because he's a liberal.

Quote:
Or do you accept the more likely explanation that Kavanaugh probably did do the things he was accused of.
That's not more likely.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:49 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's a complex question that I don't have a simple answer to.

To which I don't have a simple answer.

The best way I can think to put it right now is, nobody sounds like Martin Sheen written by Aaron Sorkin, when they're answering questions from hostile senators farming partisan gotchas. It's not a spectacle I enjoy watching, and it's not a criteria I generally apply.
The bar isn't that high. It is disingenuous to pretend that we are asking too much of a seasoned lawyer and judge to be able to testify honestly without losing his cool.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 11:53 AM   #373
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A side note: It's not "FFFF", but "FFFFF". The middle "F" is "Finger" (aptly positioned, one might say. )

Seeing the devout defenders of BK flail and flap in the wind evokes from me a bit of concern for them. Like all defenders of the indefensible, they wallow in minutiae, striving to rationalize in isolation every tidbit they feel buttresses their belief. Like arguing incessantly about the meaning of a word. While the rest of us have long since broadened our view to take in the full picture and synthesize a holistic assessment. You know, considering together those seemingly minor elements and arriving at a larger truth.

Any sentient being that has the capacity to figuratively step back and survey the wider scene cannot but find that Kav is *demonstrably* (as in, he has himself demonstrated himself to be) unfit for the SC, and arguably for his current position.

The lesson reinforced for me in this whole business is the potency for partisanship to blind us. I know that to some degree I am partisan, like all people for it is in our very nature. But I hope never to be so blinded that it should lead me to froth for a win whose net result is a loss for society.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:04 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obviously. Because he's a liberal.
Who's a liberal? Gorsuch?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:06 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Strangely enough, even though the nomination of Gorsuch was extremely unpopular among Democrats and others on the political left (and I think Gorsuch even went to the same prep school, so they had similar upbringings), no such accusations of sexual improprieties occurred with him. Why do you think that is?
Because he was still a Democratic nominee, not a Republican one, and because that sort of personal attack has so far been a tool of the left, not the right. You can expect that to change if this attack on Kavanaugh succeeds.
Hold up. Neil Gorsuch was a Democratic nominee and not a Republican one? You did know Trump nominated him, right?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:09 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obviously. Because he's a liberal.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who's a liberal? Gorsuch?
For some reason I think he's thinking Garland not Gorsuch.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:12 PM   #377
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That crossed my mind as well but I want to make sure.



Garland, of course, never made it to hearings.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:17 PM   #378
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n
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
One quick and easy remedy is to investigate and prosecute all these alleged cases of perjury.

Trial lawyers have an old saying, you never ask a question on cross examination to which you don't already know the answer.
Rachel Mitchell: "Have you ever given tips or advice to somebody who was looking to take a polygraph test?"

Dr. Ford: "Never."
In other news: Ex-boyfriend says Dr. Ford coached friend for polygraph, had no fear of flying.

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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:19 PM   #379
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Breitbart, really?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:19 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
n


Trial lawyers have an old saying, you never ask a question on cross examination to which you don't already know the answer.
Rachel Mitchell: "Have you ever given tips or advice to somebody who was looking to take a polygraph test?"

Dr. Ford: "Never."
In other news: Ex-boyfriend says Dr. Ford coached friend for polygraph, had no fear of flying.
Breitbart? Sounds legit.


Dah! Ninja'd by Belz! Again!

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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:19 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
n


Trial lawyers have an old saying, you never ask a question on cross examination to which you don't already know the answer.
Rachel Mitchell: "Have you ever given tips or advice to somebody who was looking to take a polygraph test?"

Dr. Ford: "Never."
In other news, ex-boyfriend says Dr. Ford coached friend for polygraph, had no fear of flying.
Great. Let me know when the criminal proceedings against all these liars and conspirators will begin.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:20 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Breitbart, really?
Whale.to was down for maintenance.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:22 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Breitbart, really?
I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Real Clear Investigations is the source, and it is being reported by multiple outlets besides Breitbart.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:22 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
n


Trial lawyers have an old saying, you never ask a question on cross examination to which you don't already know the answer.
Rachel Mitchell: "Have you ever given tips or advice to somebody who was looking to take a polygraph test?"

Dr. Ford: "Never."
In other news: Ex-boyfriend says Dr. Ford coached friend for polygraph, had no fear of flying.
I'm a bit confused.

What I've been hearing from Kavanaugh supporters since this whole thing started is that we shouldn't allow unsubstantiated allegations to influence our decisions. In fact, anonymous allegations were the worst.

And yet here we are with the same folks putting forward this letter as something we need to consider.

Which is it?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:25 PM   #385
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We can't consider unsubstantiated claims.

Unsubstantiated claims that claim to disprove the original unsubstantiated claims are holy writ.

Which one is the first unsubstantiated claim depends on which tribe you've pledged allegiance to.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:26 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'm a bit confused.

What I've been hearing from Kavanaugh supporters since this whole thing started is that we shouldn't allow unsubstantiated allegations to influence our decisions. In fact, anonymous allegations were the worst.

And yet here we are with the same folks putting forward this letter as something we need to consider.

Which is it?
I hope I'm wrong, but it's starting to feel like a bunch of liars on both sides. Maybe they all think it's justified because the Supreme Court is so important? To me the logic would work the other way. It's important that everyone is completely honest because the SC is so important.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:30 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I hope I'm wrong, but it's starting to feel like a bunch of liars on both sides. Maybe they all think it's justified because the Supreme Court is so important? To me the logic would work the other way. It's important that everyone is completely honest because the SC is so important.
The problem is this by default turns into a "Both sides are equally bad so my side should win" argument.

One "side" still has to get their way when all this is said and done and right now a stalemate means a sexual predator on the Supreme Court.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:30 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because he was still a Democratic nominee, not a Republican one, and because that sort of personal attack has so far been a tool of the left, not the right. You can expect that to change if this attack on Kavanaugh succeeds.
Given that you were thinking of the wrong judge, would you like to change your answer now?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:33 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
And you forgot to mention 3) rapists deserve to be on the supreme court. (You didn't say so explicitly but I'm pretty sure Kavanaugh supporters believe that.)
Kavanaugh wasn't accused of rape by Ford.
Attempted rape. Still doesn't look good in my opinion. Although Kavanaugh supporters think its quite ok.
Quote:
And most of his supporters think he didn't rape or sexually assault anyone.
That explains all the Kavanaugh supporters like the woman who told her daughter that "innocent groping" was A-Ok.
Quote:
You can think they are wrong, and you can even think they are wrong because of partisan bias, but it's simply not a serious accusation to say they want a rapist on the Supreme Court
The preponderance of evidence suggests Kavanaugh tried to rape someone. Kavanaugh supporters want him on the supreme court.

Ergo, Kavanaugh supporters want a (attempted) rapist on the supreme court.

The fact that Kavanaugh are so eager to cram this nomination through without considering all the evidence or seeing that he's properly investigated means that at best they are willfully ignorant, at worst they know he's guilty as sin but want him installed before everyone else can see how dirty he is.

Quote:
Re: Why wasn't Gorsuch attacked the same way....

Because he was still a Democratic nominee, not a Republican one
Ummmm.... What?

Gorsuch was nominated by Trump, who is a REPUBLICAN. He was confirmed by a majority of Republicans in the senate. He was a member of the Republican National Lawyers Association. His views are closely aligned with social conservatives. So what exactly makes him a 'democratic nominee'?
Quote:
...and because that sort of personal attack has so far been a tool of the left, not the right.
I think the almost constant investigations into Clinton over Bengazi, as well as the Swift Boat Veterans who attacked Kerry (a group which claimed independence yet had close ties to the republicans) suggest that character assassination based on either false or non-existent information is actually quite common on the political right.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:37 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The preponderance of evidence suggests Kavanaugh tried to rape someone.
No, it doesn't.

Quote:
Ummmm.... What?
Sorry, for some reason I was thinking Garland. My previous reply on that part makes no sense.

As for why Gorsuch wasn't treated that way, well, one reason is because delays wouldn't have changed anything then, but they might now.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:40 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem is this by default turns into a "Both sides are equally bad so my side should win" argument.

One "side" still has to get their way when all this is said and done and right now a stalemate means a sexual predator on the Supreme Court.
Well, I include Kavanaugh in the list of people that have been, let's call it - disingenuous. So my "side" is to be against his confirmation.

It's kind of like the old saying that if two kids fight over a toy, neither should get it.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:40 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I hope I'm wrong, but it's starting to feel like a bunch of liars on both sides. Maybe they all think it's justified because the Supreme Court is so important? To me the logic would work the other way. It's important that everyone is completely honest because the SC is so important.
I have not entirely ruled out the possibility that Ford is making a false allegation, but I still find it far more unlikely to be the case.

There are a relatively small number of people who might conceivably have been in a situation to make such an allegation without it being somewhat easily falsifiable.

That someone would be within that group, and have documented their assault with a therapist years before. That such a person could have a respectable career and life and be willing to risk their entire reputation, their safety and very possibly their career and freedom on a lie is a tall order.

I don't think it's impossible that someone would make up such a lie, but that all those elements would coalesce in someone willing to risk their whole world on such a lie is an improbable case.

That Kavanaugh would lie to protect his career is not improbable. That an anonymous stranger or even an actual ex boyfriend would lie under cover of anonymity is also not improbable.

I do hope that Ford is being candid. A possibility certainly exists that Ford is lying entirely, or telling the truth about the central claim but being dishonest in some of the surrounding questions.

Personally I don't think Ford's claim ought to matter anymore. As Kavanaugh's collegue recently wrote, his temperment and partisanship should already disqualify him. If Ford is found in any documented untruth, it will likely send Kavanaugh sailing through.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:41 PM   #393
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What I find interesting is that Trump's sister is a federal judge. She had what I recognise as a good background to be a judge a long period as a federal attorney with progression, then junior and more senior judicial positions. Despite being a Republican she was nominated by Obama to her final post. She seems to have been a good professional with no criticisms of her behaviour.

The contrast with the current subject is huge. Little experience as a lawyer prior to appointment (I am not sure the Whitehouse appointments really count), little judicial experience and seriously dubious judgements. Frankly Trump's sister would be a better choice.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:44 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
n


Trial lawyers have an old saying, you never ask a question on cross examination to which you don't already know the answer.
Rachel Mitchell: "Have you ever given tips or advice to somebody who was looking to take a polygraph test?"

Dr. Ford: "Never."
In other news: Ex-boyfriend says Dr. Ford coached friend for polygraph, had no fear of flying.
Quote:
They didn’t quite get it all scrubbed from cyberspace quickly enough. High School yearbooks from Holton Arms preparatory school (Bethesda, Maryland, 1982-1985) purportedly show Brett Kavanaugh accuser Christine Blasey-Ford as a wild party girl in a wild party era, with yearbook passages by classmates bragging of spending the night with adult men during “Beach Week” and enjoying male strippers in G-strings for “Sweet 16” birthday parties.
http://www.shadolsonshow.com/2018/09...efore-college/
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:45 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I have not entirely ruled out the possibility that Ford is making a false allegation, but I still find it far more unlikely to be the case.

There are a relatively small number of people who might conceivably have been in a situation to make such an allegation without it being somewhat easily falsifiable.

That someone would be within that group, and have documented their assault with a therapist years before. That such a person could have a respectable career and life and be willing to risk their entire reputation, their safety and very possibly their career and freedom on a lie is a tall order.

I don't think it's impossible that someone would make up such a lie, but that all those elements would coalesce in someone willing to risk their whole world on such a lie is an improbable case.

That Kavanaugh would lie to protect his career is not improbable. That an anonymous stranger or even an actual ex boyfriend would lie under cover of anonymity is also not improbable.

I do hope that Ford is being candid. A possibility certainly exists that Ford is lying entirely, or telling the truth about the central claim but being dishonest in some of the surrounding questions.

Personally I don't think Ford's claim ought to matter anymore. As Kavanaugh's collegue recently wrote, his temperment and partisanship should already disqualify him. If Ford is found in any documented untruth, it will likely send Kavanaugh sailing through.
I agree that it's probable her claim of Kavanaugh attacking her is true. But I think she took some liberties in other areas; perhaps the fear of flying, the recollections of who she told, and when, etc.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:46 PM   #396
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Quote:
One friend, (identified briefly on social media) alleges Blasey-Ford (Holton Arms, Class of 1984) suffered no memory loss whatsoever in describing and bragging about her sexual conquests and paramours, identifying 54 sexual partners between her junior year of high school and enrollment in college. The social media post (below) claims Blasey-Ford previously allegedly admitted to being an alcoholic in high school and regretted, “being so easy,” in high school. She is alleged to have told the best friend that she had 54 sexual partners between 11th grade and enrollment in college. The post also identified Blasey-Ford as a liberal activist with an obvious sensitivity to Supreme Court ideology, once writing on social media, “Scalia-types must be banned from law!”
http://www.shadolsonshow.com/2018/09...efore-college/
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:48 PM   #397
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I'm waiting for Joecool to ask what Dr. Ford was wearing.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:49 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
It's kind of like the old saying that if two kids fight over a toy, neither should get it.
Well the problem is right now there are no adults in this metaphor just two kids fighting over a toy except the toy is a sexual predator on the Supreme Court and the kids are one of if not the most powerful governing bodies in the world.

There is no neutral. There is no default. There is no status quo. There is no "don't make a decision" to invoke here. Either a sexual predator goes on the Supreme Court or he doesn't.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:51 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
But I think she took some liberties in other areas; perhaps the fear of flying, the recollections of who she told, and when, etc.
It's possible, but I don't think yet probable.

The supposed inconsistencies with her fear of flying brought up before match my brother's experience with his fear of flying. He's had a serious fear of planes since 9-11, but he flies at least once a year for work or vacations. If he had to do something that was otherwise already very stressful, he would greatly prefer to drive if possible.

Again, I don't find the letter too compelling.

I very much agree with you that a lot is at stake, so I hope she took no liberties. But I also hope she will be given the same benefit of the doubt for unclear memory and poor phrasing under stress that the GOP are ready to extend to their own.
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:51 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm waiting for Joecool to ask what Dr. Ford was wearing.
The link I posted has pictures.

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