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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees

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Old 1st October 2018, 06:00 PM   #121
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Likely but not for certain. It's quite possible she believes what she's saying. But it is very, very unlikely that her claims are actually true.
Based on what exactly? Many experts on sexual assault have called her testimony credible.

It's also quite possible that Kav believes what he's saying regarding his drinking since he may not remember a lot of what he did while drunk. It's also possible that all those classmates who have come forward describing his heavy drinking and aggressive behavior while drunk could be lying too. It's possible they are all part of a years long Democrat conspiracy to 'get' Kavanaugh.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:00 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay the "Evil man-hating woman" character doesn't really fit this story.
I never said anything about man hating. Nothing in my argument requires or even implies that.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:00 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You are arguing with a poster who spent an extensive period of time claiming he had proof Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist and refusing to provide a shred of evidence. It's futile.
Oh. That must have been fun.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:02 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Based on what exactly?
I already went through that in this very thread.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:03 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I already went through that in this very thread.
Can you please tell me what post #? I'm checking in while making dinner.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:03 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And you typed that instead of... nothing. Your point?
He doesn't have a point. He's just playing tag with Zig, helping out the latter's unreasonable request for evidence when the two threads on this topic are chock full of it.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:04 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There is no basis for comparison. The GOP has demonstrably and categorically abandoned just about every value they have ever laid claim to. (They might have missed a couple, but I can't think of what they might be.)

They haven't even bothered to pretend otherwise. They now seem to think it is some sort of virtue.

As false equivalencies go, your assertion is a whopper.
And this is why "Our only standard is 'better than the other side' and we consider the 'other side' to be inhuman trash" is such a bad philosophy. Anything that isn't pure tribalism is a "false equivalency."

But this has hijacked this thread, nebulously topic-ed as it maybe, enough.

And to be 100% open I don't mean that as a way to get the last word in. You're not wrong in that walking the line between "Fair and balanced" and "False equivalency" is not easy. I disagree with you, but there certainly is nuance and POV differences to legit be discussed here.

Again all of this goes away if you just don't have sides but apparently that is literally impossible for people to get onboard with so I'm gonna have to try some way to speak everyone else's language.

But this probably needs its own thread.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:05 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Taking down Kavanaugh. Possibly making money like Anita Hill did.
How, by writing a book? She's not getting a dime from Kavanaugh.

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Becoming a liberal hero.
That's crazy talk.

Quote:
You just tried to heckle an argument other people were having.
This is a public discussion forum. He's allowed to chime in, and his point stands: you made an assertion without evidence, he said that you're wrong without evidence. You're even.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:07 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Based on what exactly? Many experts on sexual assault have called her testimony credible.
Yeah but experts are wrong sometimes, so that justifies laymen making up their own uninformed minds about it.

In any case, this is a diversion. The allegations are now irrelevant. Kavanaugh has made them so in his unhinged defense. Had he taken the high ground, it might have just fizzled out.

Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Oh. That must have been fun.
Oh, don't get me started on that. Zig hates it when I bring it up.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:07 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You say that like you know he committed perjury. But you donít actually know that.

Do you believe that Kavanaugh never suffered from any sort of memory impairment at all from excessive alcohol consumption during his high school years?

Because his testimonial denial of that was pretty unequivocal. Even in the face of the sort of extreme pedantry that conservatives like to engage in when defending the indefensible. No twisting of his series of short and categorical "No"s to Mitchell's questions can accomplish that.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:09 PM   #131
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Premature to ask. We don't know how this ends. At the very least we have to see whether Kavanaugh gets to the court, and what happens in mid term elections.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:12 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
. . .
Ford isn't remotely credible and is only getting attention because of the Democrats . . . .
Zig.
Zig, Zig, Zig, Zig, Zig.

Partisanship over humanity is pretty embarrassing to watch.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:16 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How, by writing a book?
That's how Hill made $1 million. Plus speaking fees, that can also be quite lucrative.

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That's crazy talk.
Is it? Hill is a liberal hero.

Quote:
This is a public discussion forum. He's allowed to chime in
Sure, which is one reason why I wouldn't report that post. But his chiming in was still pointless and contributes nothing, and I'm allowed to point that out.

Quote:
and his point stands: you made an assertion without evidence, he said that you're wrong without evidence. You're even.
That's not actually how discussion works. Not everything people say needs a citation. If someone makes a claim that you don't believe and you want a citation, then you ask for one. If you think it's simply false, then you should offer a counter-claim or reasoning, not just a nay-saying. So no, his point does not stand, we aren't even, and you're not actually being honest about any of this.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:16 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the clear answer is no, there is not enough here. There's nothing here other than completely unsubstantiated accusations.

And ponder for a moment what that means for future nominations if unsubstantiated allegations are enough to disqualify a candidate. What incentives do you think that puts in place? How do you think people will respond to such an incentive structure?

The lesson to learn...

Why are the allegations unsubstantiated, and significant questions unanswered?

In good measure because the Rs demanded a hearing:
- Without extending the FBI background check!
- Without hearing from other witnesses!
- Without having any documentation admitted!

They plowed ahead at speed in order to *ignore* anything that may that be corroborative of Ford. They *set up* the hearing specifically so that no clarification could attend. The *aim* was to keep it to a he said/she said situation.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:24 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's how Hill made $1 million. Plus speaking fees, that can also be quite lucrative.



Is it? Hill is a liberal hero.



Sure, which is one reason why I wouldn't report that post. But his chiming in was still pointless and contributes nothing, and I'm allowed to point that out.



That's not actually how discussion works. Not everything people say needs a citation. If someone makes a claim that you don't believe and you want a citation, then you ask for one. If you think it's simply false, then you should offer a counter-claim or reasoning, not just a nay-saying. So no, his point does not stand, we aren't even, and you're not actually being honest about any of this.
Yes, we are even.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:26 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do you believe that Kavanaugh never suffered from any sort of memory impairment at all from excessive alcohol consumption during his high school years?

Because his testimonial denial of that was pretty unequivocal. Even in the face of the sort of extreme pedantry that conservatives like to engage in when defending the indefensible. No twisting of his series of short and categorical "No"s to Mitchell's questions can accomplish that.
Being blackout drunk is different than "any sort of memory impairment at all". It doesn't mean that your memories are a little fuzzier, a little less clear. It means that you have NO memories from a certain period.

I've been drunk a number of times. I've been blackout drunk only once. The distinction is quite dramatic. There was absolutely no ambiguity about it for me. Lots of people get drunk, repeatedly, without ever becoming blackout drunk.

I have no reason to doubt his testimony on that point. No evidence has been offered to contradict his testimony on that point.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:31 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The lesson to learn...

Why are the allegations unsubstantiated, and significant questions unanswered?

In good measure because the Rs demanded a hearing:
- Without extending the FBI background check!
- Without hearing from other witnesses!
- Without having any documentation admitted!
What documentation do you imagine exists regarding Ford's accusations? As for extending the background check, blame Feinstein. She could have brought this up at the beginning of the process. Why should she be rewarded for this supremely unethical behavior with further delays? And what exactly do you imagine the FBI can discover? There's nothing to go on.

Oh, and they HAVE heard from every other alleged witness. All of them deny any knowledge of any such events. I say "alleged witness" because there cannot be any witnesses if it didn't happen.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:43 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's how Hill made $1 million. Plus speaking fees, that can also be quite lucrative.
Indeed.

Quote:
Is it? Hill is a liberal hero.
Is she? How do you define "liberal hero", then?

Quote:
Sure, which is one reason why I wouldn't report that post.
Why would you report that post, though?

Quote:
That's not actually how discussion works. Not everything people say needs a citation. If someone makes a claim that you don't believe and you want a citation, then you ask for one. If you think it's simply false, then you should offer a counter-claim or reasoning, not just a nay-saying.
No, you can just ask for evidence or point out flippantly that the person has none. That's how discussion works, quite often.
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:50 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What statement do you think was perjury?
Which statement do you think wasn't?
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:50 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is she? How do you define "liberal hero", then?
Lots of people look up to her, admire her, seek out her counsel. Is this honestly a mystery to you?

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Why would you report that post, though?
I wouldn't report that post. I might report other posts for violations of the membership agreement, but I never suggested that post did, nor would I report a post that I did not feel violated the membership agreement.

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No, you can just ask for evidence or point out flippantly that the person has none. That's how discussion works, quite often.
Evidence?
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Old 1st October 2018, 08:07 PM   #141
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We've learned the perjury doesn't matter to Republicans, as long as it is a Republican doing it.
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Old 1st October 2018, 08:13 PM   #142
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There is a time and place to use Trump-tactics to win -
a Supreme Court nomination hearing is not one of them.
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Old 1st October 2018, 08:16 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Likely but not for certain. It's quite possible she believes what she's saying. But it is very, very unlikely that her claims are actually true.
Here’s a drive-by wow.
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Old 1st October 2018, 08:19 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Hereís a drive-by wow.
They decided to use the "she's nutty" defense, now I'm waiting for the "she's slutty" defense as a follow up soon.
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Old 1st October 2018, 08:36 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who in the world thinks this? Oh, that's right; no one.
Actually, everybody who passes around the slogan "Believe victims", along with everybody whose usual reaction to rape accusations is to believe the accuser, whether they recite the slogan describing that tendency or not.

And that might be a fair enough default position for people who aren't on a jury in a criminal trial. The presumption of innocence is for trials and is not required in other contexts, and it could very well be true that accusations are more often true than false. (I ran into a claim that it's about three fourths a few days ago, but didn't catch the source and don't recall where I saw that.) Outside of a criminal trial, the consequences of a presumption of guilt might sometimes be acceptable. For example, for most people, the loss of a job, especially for this kind of reason, would be disastrous, but the guy we're talking about in this case isn't at risk of losing his job; he's just at risk of not getting a new one (and already rich enough that he'd be fine if he actually lost his old one, too). I'd say it's worth it to let that happen to him even if he's innocent, in the interest of not having a Supreme Court Justice who we even have any reason to think might be a rapist.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
they HAVE heard from every other alleged witness. All of them deny any knowledge of any such events. I say "alleged witness" because there cannot be any witnesses if it didn't happen.
That would be accurate & relevant... if her story were that they had observed the assault.
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:02 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That would be accurate & relevant... if her story were that they had observed the assault.
You donít get it. None of them recall even the existence of the alleged gathering. There is no evidence even THAT occurred, let alone the alleged assault.
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:14 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You donít get it. None of them recall even the existence of the alleged gathering. There is no evidence even THAT occurred, let alone the alleged assault.
So what? This was 30 years ago. Nothing happened to them. Just one of many parties.
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:17 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You don’t get it.
You don't get it, the claim that the people are refuting the accuser's story is a lie.
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:24 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So what? This was 30 years ago. Nothing happened to them. Just one of many parties.
So there isnít a single thing that corroborates anything she has claimed. Why should we ever take an accusation like that seriously?
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:31 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Actually, everybody who passes around the slogan "Believe victims", along with everybody whose usual reaction to rape accusations is to believe the accuser, whether they recite the slogan describing that tendency or not.

And that might be a fair enough default position for people who aren't on a jury in a criminal trial. The presumption of innocence is for trials and is not required in other contexts, and it could very well be true that accusations are more often true than false. (I ran into a claim that it's about three fourths a few days ago, but didn't catch the source and don't recall where I saw that.) Outside of a criminal trial, the consequences of a presumption of guilt might sometimes be acceptable. For example, for most people, the loss of a job, especially for this kind of reason, would be disastrous, but the guy we're talking about in this case isn't at risk of losing his job; he's just at risk of not getting a new one (and already rich enough that he'd be fine if he actually lost his old one, too). I'd say it's worth it to let that happen to him even if he's innocent, in the interest of not having a Supreme Court Justice who we even have any reason to think might be a rapist.

That would be accurate & relevant... if her story were that they had observed the assault.

I seriously doubt the highlighted part. The conclusion by sexual crimes experts is that sexual crimes are grossly unreported. It seems as if every woman I know has been sexually assaulted or found themselves with overly aggressive males that made them very afraid of being raped and NONE of them reported it. They understand the difficulty of proving it happened and want to put it in the past and sweep it under the rug. My high school sweetheart that I had a relationship with for 5 years didn't tell me she was raped until a year after it happened. She blamed herself as much as the guy simply because she trusted the guy and allowed herself to be alone with him.
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:38 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So there isnít a single thing that corroborates anything she has claimed. Why should we ever take an accusation like that seriously?
Say, I think this calls for an investigation. And if the scum you regularly cover for had half a brain (between them - the admin and the caucus), instead of trying to rush this through in time for the election they would have done their investigations in private, and told the Federalist Society to come up with a less reprehensible douchebag; another in the Gorscuh vein.

The GOP shameless version is "Hey, we wanted to rush this through without presenting evidence or the full documentation and now that we've **** the bed you're to blame for doing this at such a late date and in such a public manner! Poor us! Sniff! Liberal meanies always picking on our rapey-judge nominees."
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:39 PM   #152
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So there isnít a single thing that corroborates anything she has claimed. Why should we ever take an accusation like that seriously?
Why shouldn't we take it seriously? You think she just decided to turn her life upside down to accuse some guy she knew in high school of sexual assault? How many women said nothing for years about Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein or Larry Nasser? How about the children assaulted by priests that didn't come forward for decades?

But as I already told you. It is not her accusation that disqualifies him, but his dishonest whiney belligerent response.
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Old 1st October 2018, 09:52 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So there isnít a single thing that corroborates anything she has claimed. Why should we ever take an accusation like that seriously?
Except for those things that corroborate her claims, you are correct.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:02 PM   #154
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The lesson to learn...

Why are the allegations unsubstantiated, and significant questions unanswered?
Because they concern events that happened 35 years ago and no independent corroboration has been unearthed?

Quote:
In good measure because the Rs demanded a hearing:
- Without extending the FBI background check!
What do you think that will do? I guess we will see.
Quote:
- Without hearing from other witnesses!
What other witnesses?
Quote:
- Without having any documentation admitted!
What documentation?

Quote:
They plowed ahead at speed in order to *ignore* anything that may that be corroborative of Ford.
There are no witnesses that corroborate her testimony.
Quote:
They *set up* the hearing specifically so that no clarification could attend. The *aim* was to keep it to a he said/she said situation.
That's all it can ever be at this point. Because it happened 35 years ago and nobody witnessed it and she didn't tell anyone afterwards.

So it seems to me that your post is not a good example of "lessons to be learned" but just more of the same partisan bickering.

***

I think what we have learned thus far is that we as a society are going to have to figure out a way to fairly deal with sexual assault allegations. I'm probably not going to perceived as being very fair here and I don't have any set answers, but I think there's a problem no one really wants to talk about. Just hear me out, if you will, while I flesh out my thoughts.

Take current personalities out of it. What is the best and fairest way to deal with a he said/she said situation? She says he sexually assaulted her, he says he did not. There is no physical evidence, no witness and no external way to corroborate the accusation. Is it appropriate to make those accusations public? Is the court of public opinion the best place to hash out the truth? I think the answer is no to both of those questions.

So what is the best way to deal with the accusation? I would say that, given the serious consequences for both parties, it should be handled as discreetly as possible. Especially, since we know how unreliable human memory is, if the only evidence consists of old memories. An accuser should not just be able to make a public statement; it should be reported to law enforcement. LE should handle and investigate it confidentially.

In the current situation, I think the leaking of Ford's statement was a pretty grievous error. Where I am not so sure about is -ok, now what? How can you possibly enforce such a policy of confidentiality given 1st Amendment rights? Changes in defamation law? If someone accused me, a nobody, I would have recourse that a public figure like Kavanaugh does not.

Like I said, I don't have the answers, but it's a conversation that needs to start happening. Because what if he didn't do this? Look at the Al Franken episode; what if Al Franken didn't do anything but take a stupid joke picture? Did he deserve to go down for something so harmless? I don't know. . .
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:04 PM   #155
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Looks like a classical case of "she said / he was too drunk to say as anything coherent".
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:05 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So there isnít a single thing that corroborates anything she has claimed. Why should we ever take an accusation like that seriously?
1. She told her therapist in 2012 about the assault and described him as going to an elitist all boys school who was now a "highly respected and high-ranking member of society in Washington". Odd how that just happens to describe Kavanaugh.

2. Dr. Ford's husband says she told him it was Brett Kavanaugh in 2012. Another odd cowinkydink.

3. She told 3 friends on 3 different occasion between 2013 and 2017 of the attack. One said B-F said her attacker was now a federal judge in D.C. The two other friends said B-F said her attacker was Brett Kavanaugh.

4. Ford named Judge and Smyth as being at the party. Ford's own calendar proves he partied with them and they were part of his crowd.

5. Judge's book describes 'Bart O'Kavanaugh' as a drunk who ralphed (in the true use of the word and not the silliness BK tried to peddle) and passed out in a car after drinking too much.

Yep, there is absolutely nothing to support Ford's story. Not a single thing.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:05 PM   #157
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why shouldn't we take it seriously? You think she just decided to turn her life upside down to accuse some guy she knew in high school of sexual assault? How many women said nothing for years about Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein or Larry Nasser? How about the children assaulted by priests that didn't come forward for decades?
In all your other examples, the claims were corroborated. Strange how you failed to notice that this separates them all from Fordís claim.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:07 PM   #158
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What we have learned from the Kavanaugh hearings is that no one wants to address the real problem. That the country is about 65% blindly partisan has been obvious for a while. That the judiciary members bottom-to-top are being groomed as partisan judges has been noticed by some but is now painfully clear.

The takeaway is that the present judicial system is destroying the intention of the separation of powers. When the judiciary tasked with adjudicating over laws and attempts at laws is of a political party, then how does that not corrupt the intentions of the Constitution.

We need to do away with party politics for judgeships at any level. This would require revamping the entire system or would require that voters actually Vote for Non-Partisanship. The latter is not likely to happen, so there needs to be discussion about the former. AND NO ONE IS DISCUSSING IT. It's like campaign finance reform and term limits. That stuff is all fine for YOUR candidates, not mine.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:09 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
1. She told her therapist in 2012 about the assault and described him as going to an elitist all boys school who was now a "highly respected and high-ranking member of society in Washington". Odd how that just happens to describe Kavanaugh.

2. Dr. Ford's husband says she told him it was Brett Kavanaugh in 2012. Another odd cowinkydink.

3. She told 3 friends on 3 different occasion between 2013 and 2017 of the attack. One said B-F said her attacker was now a federal judge in D.C. The two other friends said B-F said her attacker was Brett Kavanaugh.

4. Ford named Judge and Smyth as being at the party. Ford's own calendar proves he partied with them and they were part of his crowd.

5. Judge's book describes 'Bart O'Kavanaugh' as a drunk who ralphed (in the true use of the word and not the silliness BK tried to peddle) and passed out in a car after drinking too much.

Yep, there is absolutely nothing to support Ford's story. Not a single thing.
Three of your items are just Ford’s own story. A story can’t corroborate itself, and it’s changed over time as well (and not just by filling in Kavanaugh’s name). Your other two items are not actually about Ford’s claimed assault, and therefore do not corroborate it.

ETA: but while we are on the subject of odd cowinkydinks, in 2012 Kavanaugh’s name was publicly floated as a likely Supreme Court pick for Romney if he won.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:14 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In all your other examples, the claims were corroborated. Strange how you failed to notice that this separates them all from Fordís claim.
No, they weren't. There were simply so many similar stories.
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