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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees

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Old 1st October 2018, 10:16 PM   #161
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In all your other examples, the claims were corroborated. Strange how you failed to notice that this separates them all from Fordís claim.
Interesting standards of proof. The "corroboration" in those other cases consists of what? And was there a "first" claimant in those cases? Did said "first claimant" receive your immediate acceptance or did you wait like a good skeptic for more evidence. And that "more evidence" consists of? Why, more claimants. There are no fingerprints, gunshot residue, DNA evidence, fiber evidence, etc.... just claimants.

Yet you say those were "corroborated"? How? By volume of claimants? 19 people have accused Trump of sexual indiscretions. We only have "one" claim against Kavanaugh? Or only "one who's testified at the Republican Committee's discretion" with others in the wings whose lack of testimony you are now using to say "It's just one claim and hardly proven".


ETA: Curses. acbytesla beat me to it.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:19 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, they weren't. There were simply so many similar stories.
You are wrong. There was lots of corroboration.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:32 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are wrong. There was lots of corroboration.
Not for every story.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:32 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
1. She told her therapist in 2012 about the assault and described him as going to an elitist all boys school who was now a "highly respected and high-ranking member of society in Washington". Odd how that just happens to describe Kavanaugh.

2. Dr. Ford's husband says she told him it was Brett Kavanaugh in 2012. Another odd cowinkydink.

3. She told 3 friends on 3 different occasion between 2013 and 2017 of the attack. One said B-F said her attacker was now a federal judge in D.C. The two other friends said B-F said her attacker was Brett Kavanaugh.

4. Ford named Judge and Smyth as being at the party. Ford's own calendar proves he partied with them and they were part of his crowd.

5. Judge's book describes 'Bart O'Kavanaugh' as a drunk who ralphed (in the true use of the word and not the silliness BK tried to peddle) and passed out in a car after drinking too much.

Yep, there is absolutely nothing to support Ford's story. Not a single thing.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Three of your items are just Fordís own story. A story canít corroborate itself, and itís changed over time as well (and not just by filling in Kavanaughís name). Your other two items are not actually about Fordís claimed assault, and therefore do not corroborate it.

ETA: but while we are on the subject of odd cowinkydinks, in 2012 Kavanaughís name was publicly floated as a likely Supreme Court pick for Romney if he won.
Sigh. Which three are "just Ford's own story"?

1. There are therapist notes corroborating this.
2. This is from Ford's husband, not Ford.
3. These statements are from three friends of Ford's, not Ford.
4. She named the other boys and Keyser in her sworn statement. If it never happened then Ford would have been mighty stupid to provide names of people who she knew could only discount her claim.
5. This was from Judge. Ford had nothing to do with it.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:35 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Interesting standards of proof. The "corroboration" in those other cases consists of what? And was there a "first" claimant in those cases? Did said "first claimant" receive your immediate acceptance or did you wait like a good skeptic for more evidence. And that "more evidence" consists of? Why, more claimants. There are no fingerprints, gunshot residue, DNA evidence, fiber evidence, etc.... just claimants.

Yet you say those were "corroborated"? How? By volume of claimants? 19 people have accused Trump of sexual indiscretions. We only have "one" claim against Kavanaugh? Or only "one who's testified at the Republican Committee's discretion" with others in the wings whose lack of testimony you are now using to say "It's just one claim and hardly proven".


ETA: Curses. acbytesla beat me to it.
You are wrong. Cosby, for example, admitted to giving quaaludes to women and having sex with them. That is very significant corroboration. Other forms of corroboration (such as witnesses that confirm the victim and perpetrator met on the day and place of the alleged events) are also quite common. It isnít simple a matter of the number of accusers, though that too is relevant, since Kavanaugh only has one actual accuser.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:38 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sigh. Which three are "just Ford's own story"?

1. There are therapist notes corroborating this.
2. This is from Ford's husband, not Ford.
3. These statements are from three friends of Ford's, not Ford.
Those items confirm Ford has been telling this story. They do not corroborate the contents of the story. Telling a lie to many people doesnít make it true.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:39 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not for every story.
Doesnít have to be for every story. But it has to be for at least one, doesnít it?
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:42 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are wrong. Cosby, for example, admitted to giving quaaludes to women and having sex with them. That is very significant corroboration. Other forms of corroboration (such as witnesses that confirm the victim and perpetrator met on the day and place of the alleged events) are also quite common. It isnít simple a matter of the number of accusers, though that too is relevant, since Kavanaugh only has one actual accuser.
He actually has two: Ramirez and Ford.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:46 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Interesting standards of proof. The "corroboration" in those other cases consists of what? And was there a "first" claimant in those cases? Did said "first claimant" receive your immediate acceptance or did you wait like a good skeptic for more evidence. And that "more evidence" consists of? Why, more claimants. There are no fingerprints, gunshot residue, DNA evidence, fiber evidence, etc.... just claimants.

Yet you say those were "corroborated"? How? By volume of claimants? 19 people have accused Trump of sexual indiscretions. We only have "one" claim against Kavanaugh? Or only "one who's testified at the Republican Committee's discretion" with others in the wings whose lack of testimony you are now using to say "It's just one claim and hardly proven".


ETA: Curses. acbytesla beat me to it.
Not a race. Your post was a definite enhancement to mine.

Zig seems to be wilfully obtuse about this. Few people commit sexual assaults publicly where there can be corroborating witnesses. This is why sexual assault cases are the most difficult to prosecute. Harvey Weinstein successfully got away with his behavior for the last 25 years. Cosby even longer. Only when dozens of women came forward did authorities pay much if any attention. You don't think women don't realize this and feel a sense of futility and take a why even bother attitude?
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:46 PM   #170
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Maybe Ziggy is right. Ford decided years ago to build a story about Kavanaugh knowing that he would someday be a SCOTUS nominee...........
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:47 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sigh. Which three are "just Ford's own story"?

1. There are therapist notes corroborating this.
2. This is from Ford's husband, not Ford.
3. These statements are from three friends of Ford's, not Ford.
4. She named the other boys and Keyser in her sworn statement. If it never happened then Ford would have been mighty stupid to provide names of people who she knew could only discount her claim.
5. This was from Judge. Ford had nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Those items confirm Ford has been telling this story. They do not corroborate the contents of the story. Telling a lie to many people doesn’t make it true.


So you think it's probable or likely that Ford has been planning on taking down Kavanaugh since at least 2012 in revenge for some attack that never happened in the first place? She set a plan in motion in 2012 by going to a therapist, lying to that therapist and to her husband about Kavanaugh, and made sure to tell three different friends about K's non-existent attack over a period of several years? Okaaaaaaaay.

That belongs in Conspiracy Central.

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Old 1st October 2018, 10:50 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

That belongs in Conspiracy Central.
Conspiracy theories are very popular with Republicans.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:53 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He actually has two: Ramirez and Ford.
You want to count Ramirez? Ok, but sheís got even less credibility.
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Old 1st October 2018, 10:58 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You want to count Ramirez? Ok, but sheís got even less credibility.
Why? Because she has a Latin name and therefore doesn't count?
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:01 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You want to count Ramirez? Ok, but she’s got even less credibility.
It's not a matter of whether I want to count Ramirez or not. The fact is Deborah Ramirez is a second accuser of Kav's. What you claimed is factually incorrect.

Why do you discount Ramirez's credibility so soon? Seems to me you're just waiving off anything that doesn't support your bias.


Quote:
A former Yale classmate attempting to corroborate Deborah Ramirez‘s sexual misconduct allegation against Brett Kavanaugh is reportedly being ignored by the FBI. This alleged investigatory neglect is now being criticized as the much ballyhooed law enforcement agency conducts a background investigation in miniature of the embattled Supreme Court nominee.

According to a Sunday night report by Jane Mayer and Ronan Farrow in the The New Yorker, the classmate–still anonymous as of this writing–has reached out to the FBI on several occasions only to be frustrated and ignored at every turn.
Quote:
The classmate in question is attempting to offer their own recollection of having heard about the incident in question within hours–or a day or two at most–after it happened. The New Yorker piece notes:


The classmate, who asked to remain anonymous, recalled hearing about Ramirez’s allegation either the night it happened or during the following two days. The classmate said that he was “one-hundred-per-cent certain” that he had heard an account that was practically identical to Ramirez’s, thirty-five years ago, but the two had never spoken about it.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ed-by-the-fbi/

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Old 1st October 2018, 11:01 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are wrong. Cosby, for example, admitted to giving quaaludes to women and having sex with them. That is very significant corroboration. Other forms of corroboration (such as witnesses that confirm the victim and perpetrator met on the day and place of the alleged events) are also quite common. It isnít simple a matter of the number of accusers, though that too is relevant, since Kavanaugh only has one actual accuser.
A tremendous mistake. The lesson is of course: deny, deny, obfuscate and lie.
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:07 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why? Because she has a Latin name and therefore doesn't count?
No, because sheís been directly contradicted by multiple people, and couldnít even name Kavanaugh until after being massaged by the Dems for several days to refresh her memory. But nice try with accusing me of racism, thatís the standard go-to for desperate leftists.
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:08 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, because she’s been directly contradicted by multiple people, and couldn’t even name Kavanaugh until after being massaged by the Dems for several days to refresh her memory. But nice try with accusing me of racism, that’s the standard go-to for desperate leftists.
Evidence of either of these allegations?

Quote:
That same classmate also noted that multiple other Yale classmates from the time had come forward to him personally with information said to corroborate Ramirez’s account–but that they had not been contacted by the FBI either. Currently unclear, however, is the extent to which these additional classmates have reached out to the FBI with their alleged stories, if at all.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ed-by-the-fbi/

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Old 1st October 2018, 11:13 PM   #179
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It's fascinating how much investigation Kavanaugh-supporters have already done: they know all the facts, unlike the FBI which will need a few more days.

It seems clear to me that the GOP is happy to keep the investigation open because they think it will rally the base in the Midterms under the narrative of "Us vs. Nasty Women accusing every men who ever gave them a compliment".
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Old 2nd October 2018, 01:38 AM   #180
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In my previous post I briefly outlined the detrimental omissions in the rushed and restrictive hearing last Thursday. Zig challenged my little list.

The most important witness who should have been questioned under oath is Judge, who Ford says was the third person *in the room* with she and Kav. But the Rs were content to satisfy themselves with a weak denial of "can't remember" through his lawyer, after which Judge skipped town to hide out at a beach house.

As to documents that could have been requested for review, Ford's therapist's notes regarding the 2012 sessions in which the assault was mentioned come to mind. (Let's leave out for the moment the tens of thousands of docs the Bush admin stated were OK to hand over, but which the Trump admin clamped a seal over.)

My overarching point is that it's futile to convene a hearing without first trying *sincerely* to have the fullest information. *IF* the truth is desired to find. The Rs were deathly scared of this, hence their light-speed headlong rush to ramrod through their already known to be shady boy, Kav.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 02:30 AM   #181
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Meh. Hard evidence is hard to come by. This is also not a trial, rather, an evaluation of character and qualifications. On character, Kavanaugh failed miserably, and on professional demeanor and ability to be impartial, there is little evidence in his favor throughout his storied career in white privilege, while recent evidence shows he is a partisan hack of low wit and barrel-bottom caliber.

IOW, quite impressive... for thumb-twirling stumblebums and conspiring mobsters.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 03:43 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What we have learned from the Kavanaugh hearings is that no one wants to address the real problem. That the country is about 65% blindly partisan has been obvious for a while. That the judiciary members bottom-to-top are being groomed as partisan judges has been noticed by some but is now painfully clear.

The takeaway is that the present judicial system is destroying the intention of the separation of powers. When the judiciary tasked with adjudicating over laws and attempts at laws is of a political party, then how does that not corrupt the intentions of the Constitution.

We need to do away with party politics for judgeships at any level. This would require revamping the entire system or would require that voters actually Vote for Non-Partisanship. The latter is not likely to happen, so there needs to be discussion about the former. AND NO ONE IS DISCUSSING IT. It's like campaign finance reform and term limits. That stuff is all fine for YOUR candidates, not mine.
The man speaks the truth.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:19 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lots of people look up to her, admire her, seek out her counsel. Is this honestly a mystery to you?
Given that I had not heard about her until about a week ago, yes.

Quote:
I wouldn't report that post.
I know you said that, but I'm curious as to why you mentioned reporting at all, since there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Quote:
Evidence?
You must be joking. Are you new here?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:23 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Actually, everybody who passes around the slogan "Believe victims", along with everybody whose usual reaction to rape accusations is to believe the accuser, whether they recite the slogan describing that tendency or not.
But who did that here? At best, some posters have called her credible, and basically to a man/woman everyone here has, at the very least, made clear that there's probably no way to prove whether he's guilty. That sounds like a far cry from believing her outright.

In any event, that's not what Zig said. He was talking about women being honest and men not. I've not encountered anyone, SJWs included, who's ever made that argument. "Listen and believe" may be silly, but it doesn't imply that all women tell the truth all the time, or anything of that sort. At worst it assumes that you can take a rape accusation at face value.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:24 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So there isnít a single thing that corroborates anything she has claimed. Why should we ever take an accusation like that seriously?
Do you think I remember every single D&D game I participated in? If something had happened in one of them, without my knowledge, and I didn't even remember that specific game, would it invalidate the claim that something happened?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:28 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Maybe Ziggy is right. Ford decided years ago to build a story about Kavanaugh knowing that he would someday be a SCOTUS nominee...........
All to make money out of the deal, death threats be damned. What a diabolical genius!
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:58 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The most important witness who should have been questioned under oath is Judge, who Ford says was the third person *in the room* with she and Kav.

The second most important witness is Leland Keyser, a high-school classmate and good friend of Dr. Ford's.

Keyser is the only other female who was present at the party, and would be the one most likely to corroborate Dr. Ford's allegations.

However, according to Keyser's sworn statement, she has never met Brett Kavanaugh and has no recollection of ever being at a party where he was present.

Testimony given at the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing:
Rachel Mitchell: "Why did everyone you named as a witness, including your best female friend Leland Keyser, say she had no memory of anything you alleged?"

Dr. Ford: "Leland has significant health challenges, and I am happy that she is focusing on herself."

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Old 2nd October 2018, 05:05 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
The second most important witness is Leland Keyser, a high-school classmate and good friend of Dr. Ford's.

Keyser is the only other female who was present at the party, and would be the one most likely to corroborate Dr. Ford's allegations.

However, according to Keyser's sworn statement, she has never met Brett Kavanaugh and has no recollection of ever being at a party where he was present.

Testimony given at the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing:
Rachel Mitchell: "Why did everyone you named as a witness, including your best female friend Leland Keyser, say she had no memory of anything you alleged?"

Dr. Ford: "Leland has significant health challenges, and I am happy that she is focusing on herself."
Perhaps we have attended different kind of parties in our youth. I, for one, would not be able to name every single person at every single raging kegger that I attended decades ago. In fact, I was at a party this past Saturday (no kegs, though) attended by 70 or so people (estimated), and I couldn't tell you more than half of the attendee names.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 05:53 AM   #189
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Okay somebody has to break this down for me.

Person A says something.
Persons B,C,D,and E refute it.
Person G refutes Person's B.
Therefore Person A is correct.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:07 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay somebody has to break this down for me.

Person A says something.
Persons B,C,D,and E refute it.
Person G refutes Person's B.
Therefore Person A is correct.
Kavanaugh says he wasn't a drunk. Several people say he was. One person says that one of the several isn't credible, therefor Kavanaugh isn't a drunk.

That sums up the Republican argument well.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:19 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Perhaps we have attended different kind of parties in our youth. I, for one, would not be able to name every single person at every single raging kegger that I attended decades ago. In fact, I was at a party this past Saturday (no kegs, though) attended by 70 or so people (estimated), and I couldn't tell you more than half of the attendee names.

Yeah, but there were only 5 people at this party. And once Dr. Ford left, Leland Keyser would have been there all alone with 3 drunks guys eager to rape someone.

Moreover, Ford and Keyser have never discussed the incident. Wouldn't you expect the two girls to talk about it the next day at school: "Hey Leland, after I left did they try to rape you too?"

Last edited by Slings and Arrows; 2nd October 2018 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:22 AM   #192
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The lesson I learned is that Kavanaugh doesn't think on his feet. When asked about boofing and Devil's Triangle, the easy explanation is that is was a reference to popular expressions that sound funny. Maybe an in-joke that someone had asked that he found hysterical (Have you boofed yet? I mean, come on, I'd be ROFL if someone asked me that, and might even ask friends that question later in mock sincerity). But he came up with off-the-wall, comically transparent lies to cover them.

A lot of people have war stories from their college days that they might not be proud of today. It's excusable, people mature. But outright lying about them in a hearing...that reflects on his character here and now.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:32 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You want to count Ramirez? Ok, but sheís got even less credibility.
Why? Because she has a Latin name and therefore doesn't count?
Apparently Zig-land no women can have as much credibility as white male Republican.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:39 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Meh. Hard evidence is hard to come by. This is also not a trial, rather, an evaluation of character and qualifications. On character, Kavanaugh failed miserably, and on professional demeanor and ability to be impartial, there is little evidence in his favor throughout his storied career in white privilege, while recent evidence shows he is a partisan hack of low wit and barrel-bottom caliber.

IOW, quite impressive... for thumb-twirling stumblebums and conspiring mobsters.
This. I donít know if you could reach the standard for a rape conviction here but you donít have to in order to disqualify him. That aside the pettiness, dishonesty and partisanship Kavanaugh has displayed should be enough to disqualify him.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:41 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Apparently Zig-land no women can have as much credibility as white male Republican.
Julie Swetnick, represented my Michael Avanetti, also accuses BK
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:55 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Yeah, but there were only 5 people at this party. And once Dr. Ford left, Leland Keyser would have been there all alone with 3 drunks guys eager to rape someone.

Moreover, Ford and Keyser have never discussed the incident. Wouldn't you expect the two girls to talk about it the next day at school: "Hey Leland, after I left did they try to rape you too?"
To be clear, we are talking about the Leland Keyser who claims she believes Dr. Ford's account, are we not?

eta: I haven't kept up with everything, but I can't find anything to corroborate your claim that there were only 5 people at this party. Source?

Last edited by wareyin; 2nd October 2018 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:56 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay somebody has to break this down for me.

Person A says something.
Persons B,C,D,and E refute it.
Person G refutes Person's B.
Therefore Person A is correct.
I'm gonna wait to hear what person F has to say.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:57 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The lesson I learned is that Kavanaugh doesn't think on his feet. When asked about boofing and Devil's Triangle (snip)
Hell, he took enough time to think of a response to the Devil's Triangle question that they could've done a bit like the Simpsons whereby we zoom into his brain to see it frantically looking through its papers to find a good answer.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:58 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I donít know if you could reach the standard for a rape conviction here but you donít have to in order to disqualify him. That aside the pettiness, dishonesty and partisanship Kavanaugh has displayed should be enough to disqualify him.
Trump, like most executives, thinks of himself as perfect, so hiring/appointing the best people means hiring/appointing people who remind him of himself.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:59 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I'm gonna wait to hear what person F has to say.
Once they dredge him up from the Mar a Lago lagoon.
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