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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees

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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:04 AM   #201
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay somebody has to break this down for me.

Person A says something.
Persons B,C,D,and E refute it.
Person G refutes Person's B.
Therefore Person A is correct.
False premise. Saying they have no memory 30 years post hoc is not a refutation.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:10 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The lesson I learned is that Kavanaugh doesn't think on his feet. When asked about boofing and Devil's Triangle, the easy explanation is that is was a reference to popular expressions that sound funny. Maybe an in-joke that someone had asked that he found hysterical (Have you boofed yet? I mean, come on, I'd be ROFL if someone asked me that, and might even ask friends that question later in mock sincerity). But he came up with off-the-wall, comically transparent lies to cover them.

A lot of people have war stories from their college days that they might not be proud of today. It's excusable, people mature. But outright lying about them in a hearing...that reflects on his character here and now.
I agree. Imitating Trump is not a good strategy. And I don't want Trump on the bench either.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:49 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Julie Swetnick, represented my Michael Avanetti, also accuses BK
Bwahahahaha!

First Swetnick claimed Kavanaugh spiked the drinks at a party and participated in gang rape. Then she said she didn't actually see him do anything, but he was hanging out around the punch bowl and in a group of boys near a bedroom. Even her own version of events is falling apart at the seams. Her accusation now merely consists of him being in proximity to her alleged rape. Which, like Ford's account, has nothing and no one to corroborate any of it.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:51 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Apparently Zig-land no women can have as much credibility as white male Republican.
Ooo, we've got a twofer here, an accusation of racism and sexism! It's the standard leftist go-to when you don't have a real argument.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:55 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ooo, we've got a twofer here, an accusation of racism and sexism! It's the standard leftist go-to when you don't have a real argument.
Unfortunately, it's also an observation that women and minorities always seem short-changed by American conservatives. And that's an issue I see, as an outsider to this: both the left and the right are obsessed with race and sex.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:56 AM   #206
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"Gentleman can we not work against women and minorities without being accused of being racist and sexist?"
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:03 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bwahahahaha!

First Swetnick claimed Kavanaugh spiked the drinks at a party and participated in gang rape. Then she said she didn't actually see him do anything, but he was hanging out around the punch bowl and in a group of boys near a bedroom. Even her own version of events is falling apart at the seams. Her accusation now merely consists of him being in proximity to her alleged rape. Which, like Ford's account, has nothing and no one to corroborate any of it.
What are you demanding, thirty year old video or all accusers are liars?

I think Kavanagh could plausibly said that he attended parties in his younger days where he was drinking heavily and there were promiscuous young ladies in attendance (subtly throwing shade on his accusers) but that he did not assault them. Perhaps he could have spun it to having a history of being one-of-the-boys who cleaned up his act and made good. The whole thing would have been done and done.

It's the transparent lying about it to hoist this halo up that should make us take accusations seriously. Swetnick indeed has been inconsistent (Avanetti?). Kavanaugh has LIED, and absurdly so.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:18 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What are you demanding, thirty year old video or all accusers are liars?

I think Kavanagh could plausibly said that he attended parties in his younger days where he was drinking heavily and there were promiscuous young ladies in attendance (subtly throwing shade on his accusers) but that he did not assault them. Perhaps he could have spun it to having a history of being one-of-the-boys who cleaned up his act and made good. The whole thing would have been done and done.

It's the transparent lying about it to hoist this halo up that should make us take accusations seriously. Swetnick indeed has been inconsistent (Avanetti?). Kavanaugh has LIED, and absurdly so.
I have a problem with the highlighted part. Women pretend that they aren't interested in sex, but they are, just like men. There is nothing wrong with this. So how does one say that there were eager or willing ladies present without people being offended? This idea is in itself the double standard.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:19 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bwahahahaha!

First Swetnick claimed Kavanaugh spiked the drinks at a party and participated in gang rape. Then she said she didn't actually see him do anything, but he was hanging out around the punch bowl and in a group of boys near a bedroom. Even her own version of events is falling apart at the seams. Her accusation now merely consists of him being in proximity to her alleged rape. Which, like Ford's account, has nothing and no one to corroborate any of it.
Is not Swetnick still alleging that BK (and Judge) were at a party where she was rendered incapacitated and gang raped? The matter of Kav's *presence* at such parties is requiring to verify, for it would put the lie to his claim to have never attended events where such stuff happened. Even before determining whether he participated in rape, his lie would be hanging there for all to see.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:31 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have a problem with the highlighted part. Women pretend that they aren't interested in sex, but they are, just like men. There is nothing wrong with this. So how does one say that there were eager or willing ladies present without people being offended? This idea is in itself the double standard.
Oh, agreed. Kavanagh is propping up a ludicrously puritanical pretense of never even having drunk underage, so his target audience would also like to view the women as sluts, and therefore not credible.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:38 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Is not Swetnick still alleging that BK (and Judge) were at a party where she was rendered incapacitated and gang raped? The matter of Kav's *presence* at such parties is requiring to verify, for it would put the lie to his claim to have never attended events where such stuff happened. Even before determining whether he participated in rape, his lie would be hanging there for all to see.
Yeah, good luck with that. Ain't gonna happen.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:50 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, agreed. Kavanagh is propping up a ludicrously puritanical pretense of never even having drunk underage, so his target audience would also like to view the women as sluts, and therefore not credible.
There are definitely people who think like that. But how promiscuous one is has nothing to do with their credibility. Consider that Kavanaugh supposedly is a choir boy who never had sex until after college, he's a liar and Trump who has proven that he is sexually promiscuous is also a liar.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:54 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are definitely people who think like that. But how promiscuous one is has nothing to do with their credibility.
Depends who you ask, really.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:00 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are definitely people who think like that. But how promiscuous one is has nothing to do with their credibility. Consider that Kavanaugh supposedly is a choir boy who never had sex until after college, he's a liar and Trump who has proven that he is sexually promiscuous is also a liar.
Maybe he thinks that the choir boy angle is necessary for SCOTUS nomination, no matter how absurd the whitewashing? If so, whoever would be buying such a steaming load of BS might view any sexually direct woman as a lying hussy? I am admittedly unclear as to the 'why', although I get the 'how'
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:01 AM   #215
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It seems apparent that we and they have gathered different and contrary lessons from this situation. Obviously, we are right and they are wrong. We listen to what they say, and patiently correct their flawed perceptions of the situation, but they refuse to accept polite rational discourse. They act as if insults are meaningful arguments. If only we could get through to them. Mores the pity.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:01 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, agreed. Kavanagh is propping up a ludicrously puritanical pretense of never even having drunk underage, so his target audience would also like to view the women as sluts, and therefore not credible.
I should have looked up the actual transcript from the beginning, because I should have known people would be lying about what he said.

No, Kavanaugh never claimed that he didn't drink while underage. Dig through the transcript yourself. You won't be able to find any such claim. It doesn't exist. Most claims seem to stem from this quote:
MITCHELL: Dr. Ford has described you as being intoxicated at a party. Did you consume alcohol during your high school years?

KAVANAUGH: Yes, we drank beer. My friends and I, the boys and girls. Yes, we drank beer. I liked beer. Still like beer. We drank beer. The drinking age, as I noted, was 18, so the seniors were legal, senior year in high school, people were legal to drink, and we — yeah, we drank beer, and I said sometimes — sometimes probably had too many beers, and sometimes other people had too many beers.
Note that he doesn't say that HE was always a legal drinker, or that he only drank after he turned 18.

For most of his highschool years, seniors who were 18 were in fact legal to drink. The law changed so that he wasn't even when he turned 18, but he never actually claimed he was. At the time Ford alleges he assaulted her, Kavanaugh was 17, so of course he wouldn't have been legal, but again, he never claimed he was. He claimed other people were. And that is true, they were.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:03 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Depends who you ask, really.
It does if you are talking about the perception of credibility, not actual credibility.

This is like people who say that atheists are less moral than Christians.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:11 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It does if you are talking about the perception of credibility, not actual credibility.
I don't think there is such a thing as the latter, actually. It's all about perception, and in today's world, even moreso.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:14 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I should have looked up the actual transcript from the beginning, because I should have known people would be lying about what he said.

No, Kavanaugh never claimed that he didn't drink while underage. Dig through the transcript yourself. You won't be able to find any such claim. It doesn't exist. Most claims seem to stem from this quote:
MITCHELL: Dr. Ford has described you as being intoxicated at a party. Did you consume alcohol during your high school years?

KAVANAUGH: Yes, we drank beer. My friends and I, the boys and girls. Yes, we drank beer. I liked beer. Still like beer. We drank beer. The drinking age, as I noted, was 18, so the seniors were legal, senior year in high school, people were legal to drink, and we — yeah, we drank beer, and I said sometimes — sometimes probably had too many beers, and sometimes other people had too many beers.
Note that he doesn't say that HE was always a legal drinker, or that he only drank after he turned 18.

For most of his highschool years, seniors who were 18 were in fact legal to drink. The law changed so that he wasn't even when he turned 18, but he never actually claimed he was. At the time Ford alleges he assaulted her, Kavanaugh was 17, so of course he wouldn't have been legal, but again, he never claimed he was. He claimed other people were. And that is true, they were.
I have a hard time seeing the highlighted as anything other than an attempt to suggest that his drinking was legal without outright stating what he knew to be a falsehood.

I'll absolutely agree that it isn't perjury. But I would consider a disingenuous attempt to create an inaccurate impression to be an incredibly poor sign of character in this situation.

I find this to be rampant in Trump's circle. Making statements that any normal observer would take as an assertion of something that don't technically outright say it. Plausible deniability baked in. I find it more reprehensible than outright lying.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:20 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I have a hard time seeing the highlighted as anything other than an attempt to suggest that his drinking was legal without outright stating what he knew to be a falsehood.
That doesn't make sense, since he wasn't a senior or 18 when the events with Ford were alleged to have taken place. That wouldn't be a mystery to the committee. Nor does he ever claim that he only drank while a senior. And I think there's a rather obvious alternative reason for him to say this, which is simply to point out that alcohol was commonly and easily available to highschoolers.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:30 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What are you demanding, thirty year old video or all accusers are liars?
I don't think that's necessary. However, the accusations should have either been reported to law enforcement for investigation or not progressed beyond the letter to Feinstein. Since it is impossible to corroborate* the accusations at this point, they should never have seen the public light of day. Whoever leaked that letter committed a grievous error. This goes to the question I asked before that no one seems to want to touch: What is the best and fairest way to deal with these kinds of allegations?

Disagree with me? Just imagine this was you. You know yourself; you know you didn't do this. But here are the accusations anyway and you are now in a no-win situation. Is it fair to you that you have to defend yourself, not in court, but in the court of public opinion? Do you just have to live with the stigma now even though there is absolutely no evidence that you did anything at all? I keep hearing how this isn't court; therefore, there is no presumption of innocence. That's crazily unfair! I think the fairest approach, in cases where someone is accused of a crime, is to report the crime to law enforcement, not the court of public opinion. I believe that the justice system, with it's presumption of innocence and adversarial process, is the best system we have for finding the truth. Even 35 years later. Let the police, prosecutors and defense hash out the truth. This case wouldn't have even made it to the prosecutors for lack of evidence.

Quote:
I think Kavanagh could plausibly said that he attended parties in his younger days where he was drinking heavily and there were promiscuous young ladies in attendance (subtly throwing shade on his accusers) but that he did not assault them. Perhaps he could have spun it to having a history of being one-of-the-boys who cleaned up his act and made good. The whole thing would have been done and done.
That is not remotely likely. If he were to admit that, he would be seen as more likely guilty than not. It would have most likely derailed his nomination. It's the same reason why Clinton perjured himself over irrelevant details -if he had sex with Lewinsky, then the perception (unfairly, IMO) is that it's more likely he assaulted Jones. Again, no-win situation.

Quote:
It's the transparent lying about it to hoist this halo up that should make us take accusations seriously. Swetnick indeed has been inconsistent (Avanetti?). Kavanaugh has LIED, and absurdly so.
That's the thing. Whether or not he was a blackout drinker back in the day has no bearing on whether or not he is guilty of sexual assault. For that matter, whether or not a woman is "promiscuous" has no bearing on whether or not she was sexually assaulted. I know plenty of people who drank to excess in our high school days; in fact, I'm sure that many of us here did as well. Does that make any of us likely sexual assaulters? Does writing a phrase in a yearbook mean that you likely assaulted someone? No, those are non-probative details but as you show here, it makes people think you probably did it if someone makes an accusation against you. People lie about those irrelevant details that make them look bad. Not saying it's the right thing to do (heck, I even agree it's a good enough reason to yank him from consideration), but it's an understandable human foible. No-win.




*When I use the word corroborate, I mean it in the strictest sense: No one can say, "I saw this happen," or "I heard about this contemporaneously," or even, "I remember that party." To me, corroboration requires that someone can lend direct evidence that the event in question was likely to have occurred; we don't have that. At best, we have, "Ford told me about that 30 years later." Which doesn't prove anything other than the telling. IMO, neither side has had their story corroborated -which is what we should expect for events 35 years ago.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:30 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't make sense, since he wasn't a senior or 18 when the events with Ford were alleged to have taken place. That wouldn't be a mystery to the committee. Nor does he ever claim that he only drank while a senior. And I think there's a rather obvious alternative reason for him to say this, which is simply to point out that alcohol was commonly and easily available to highschoolers.
He wasn't addressing the committee, he was addressing the court of public opinion.

Just like when Louis C.K. wrote his apology letter, prominently stating that "I never showed a woman my **** without asking first," and suddenly all his supporters were writing "HE ASKED FIRST!!" in all caps, ignoring that he did not wait for an affirmative response or that one of the cases didn't involve him asking at all.

I don't think he was successful in creating that impression, but in any normal conversation that included that sentence, someone who was not particularly familiar with the law would read it to mean that Kavanaugh drank legally.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:33 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Since it is impossible to corroborate* the accusations at this point, they should never have seen the public light of day. Whoever leaked that letter committed a grievous error.
Maybe, but that person did us all a favour by causing Kavanaugh's mask to slip.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:39 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I have a hard time seeing the highlighted as anything other than an attempt to suggest that his drinking was legal without outright stating what he knew to be a falsehood.
I think its a way to point out that people in his school, the seniors, had easy to access to alcohol; therefore, everyone had easy access to alcohol. For kids in HS before the age was set to 21 in their State, this is a common enough experience that there is no confusion.

Quote:
I'll absolutely agree that it isn't perjury. But I would consider a disingenuous attempt to create an inaccurate impression to be an incredibly poor sign of character in this situation.

I find this to be rampant in Trump's circle. Making statements that any normal observer would take as an assertion of something that don't technically outright say it. Plausible deniability baked in. I find it more reprehensible than outright lying.
Nah, it's just your own biases creeping in to your interpretation of the words.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:44 AM   #225
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I learned that rape is a quantum effect, for this is all about a Schrödinger's Rape: I believe Ford's accusation, but at the same time I really believe Kavanough's rejection of the accusation, so in my mind, BK at the same time did AND didn't assault Ford in 1982. And the probability wave function fluctuates wildly as the situation develops.

I learned that I much sooner trust a candidate for SC who is brutally honest about his own youthful days and its follies, consequences be damned, than this guy who, whether perjuriously so or not, answered or evaded serious and pertinent questions essentially with a view to deceive and deflect.

He ought to have admitted that he drank entirely too much too often and too young, did goofy or obnoxious things while drunk, etc etc, but did not assault Ford nor anyone, ever, for he is sure he'd remember that, and doesn't. I'd confirm him then (assuming I was qualified to judge his career as a legal professional and it came out favorably).
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:46 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think its a way to point out that people in his school, the seniors, had easy to access to alcohol; therefore, everyone had easy access to alcohol. For kids in HS before the age was set to 21 in their State, this is a common enough experience that there is no confusion.

Nah, it's just your own biases creeping in to your interpretation of the words.
"X was legal for people in group Y at the time, yeah, we did X"

In any conversational context, I'm going to read that as an attempt to claim that the speaker was in group Y at the time and that they did X legally. Nothing to do with the specifics of this case.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:52 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think its a way to point out that people in his school, the seniors, had easy to access to alcohol; therefore, everyone had easy access to alcohol.
This interpretation would also be misleading, because when Kavanaugh was 17, at the time the alleged events took place, the legal age had been raised to 21, so he would not have had easy access to alcohol legally purchased by 18 year olds, because they also could not legally purchase alcohol for him.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:57 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
This interpretation would also be misleading, because when Kavanaugh was 17, at the time the alleged events took place, the legal age had been raised to 21, so he would not have had easy access to alcohol legally purchased by 18 year olds, because they also could not legally purchase alcohol for him.
Except that those who were already 18 at the time the law went into effect were grandfathered in, so yes, they still could.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:00 AM   #229
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On the other hand, he could have just actually answered the question he was asked, then people on both sides wouldn't have to guess at what he meant.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:01 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except that those who were already 18 at the time the law went into effect were grandfathered in, so yes, they still could.
Fair enough.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:02 AM   #231
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Another lesson for the Candidate might be to not talk so much about loving beer when your sponsor is a teetotaler:

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/02/65341...=1538499852575

A quick peak at Trump's family history explains why he doesn't trust himself with any alcohol.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:04 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
On the other hand, he could have just actually answered the question he was asked, then people on both sides wouldn't have to guess at what he meant.
"If it pleases the court I'm not saying that at no point did I didn't not have no access to situations where there was no alcohol not there."
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:04 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
On the other hand, he could have just actually answered the question he was asked, then people on both sides wouldn't have to guess at what he meant.
He did. He was asked if he drank alcohol during his high school years. He answered yes. There's absolutely no ambiguity in that.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:06 AM   #234
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These days, party before country is standard practice.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:09 AM   #235
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
These days, party before country is standard practice.

And in the case of Kavanaugh: bros before hoes
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:11 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Gentleman can we not work against women and minorities without being accused of being racist and sexist?"
...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 8E5AF8FC-11A2-4E88-955D-A09484BDE31A.jpg (53.7 KB, 2 views)
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:13 AM   #237
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I've learned that a thread that's ostensibly only about lessons learned on a subject will end up just being a spillover argument of the main thread on the subject, and points and posts will be almost hopelessly hard to follow.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:18 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
These days, party before country is standard practice.
Is there beer at this party?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:18 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Unfortunately, it's also an observation that women and minorities always seem short-changed by American conservatives. And that's an issue I see, as an outsider to this: both the left and the right are obsessed with race and sex.
Do you think I'm obsessed with race and sex?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 10:37 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A quick peak at Trump's family history explains why he doesn't trust himself with any alcohol.
Be careful there. You're about to accuse Trump of self-awareness, self-control, and a firm grasp of cause and effect.
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