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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:19 PM   #1
Travis
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MRA website closes as the movement changes for the worse

Noted MRA website, giant toilet of toxic masculinity, Return of Kings has closed down. They cite decreased revenue and ambiguous "censorship" for this turn of events.


https://www.wonkette.com/let-us-danc...eturn-of-kings


What I find interesting is the notion in the article, that I agree with, is that the MRA movement has morphed from being about sexual conquests via pick up artist douchebaggery into being about "marry a virgin then keep them locked up" patriarchal dystopian nightmare ala The Handsmaid's Tale. Personally I find this a disturbing turn for a movement that was pretty disgusting in the first place.



I feel this is how they have changed just based on the way they talk in the comments sections anywhere they think is a properly insulated safe space where their notions of gender roles can come freely out of them like so much acrid vomit.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:47 AM   #2
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I don't think that site qualified as MRA, but rather PUA (pickup artist). The author is a misogynist who mostly writes about how to bed women from poor countries.

There was some political stuff on there, but as I recall it was a rollercoaster of double-think. The logic behind it was a bit like this: We are conservative, but society has been destroyed by feminism. This makes it Ok for us to give up on society and instead go shag poor women. These women are in societies that are not yet ruined by feminism but are actually still traditionalist. But somehow it is totally OK for Western guys to go there and introduce a loose sexual morale and then dump these women after we shag them.

Also: loose sexual morale was introduced by feminism, feminism was introduced by the Jews, immigrants are bad, I am an immigrant, I teach guys how to exploit loose sexual morale for a living, that is not bad and look over there: the Jews.

I think that about sums it up, plus the techniques for picking up chicks in Ukraine. Since the site is apparently down, I guess it is OK if I spoil the big pick-up artist secret: the average monthly salary in Ukraine is $300. You're welcome.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 12:58 AM   #3
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Interesting category to classify that site as

So is this actually

"What I find interesting is the notion in the article, that I agree with, is that the MRA movement has morphed from being about sexual conquests via pick up artist douchebaggery"
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Old 3rd October 2018, 01:04 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I don't think that site qualified as MRA, but rather PUA (pickup artist). The author is a misogynist who mostly writes about how to bed women from poor countries.

There was some political stuff on there, but as I recall it was a rollercoaster of double-think. The logic behind it was a bit like this: We are conservative, but society has been destroyed by feminism. This makes it Ok for us to give up on society and instead go shag poor women. These women are in societies that are not yet ruined by feminism but are actually still traditionalist. But somehow it is totally OK for Western guys to go there and introduce a loose sexual morale and then dump these women after we shag them.
All true. He sort of went into MRA stuff as well, although certainly not the level of Paul Elam and the like.

Roosh's big downfall is that one of his books (supposedly nonfictional) features him having sex with an unconscious drunk woman - he says that the country he was in had no laws against this, but the actual country disagreed. He ended up being banned from a few countries (or possibly just Australia), venues decided they didn't want some dude who bragged about raping women around, and eventually websites like Paypal (notoriously strict about this sort of thing), Amazon, and so forth just banned him (or tried to - Amazon dropped some but not all of his books).

Last edited by Mumbles; 3rd October 2018 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 01:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Interesting category to classify that site as

So is this actually

"What I find interesting is the notion in the article, that I agree with, is that the MRA movement has morphed from being about sexual conquests via pick up artist douchebaggery"
yeah, it's conflating three distinct online men's "movements".

MRA's (who want to see their kids after divorce, and correct legal injustices towards men)
PUA's (mostly harmless shy men who want a girlfriend or want to get laid and look for guidance, some creeps there obviously)
The Red Pill (guys with a cynical and often misogynistic view of women)

The site in question was on the extreme end of even that. I've never visited the site, but I've listened to some of the podcasts by the owner (Roosh V). I'm assuming the content was similar. He has a surprisingly pleasant late-night radio-host voice.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 01:16 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
All true. He sort of went into MRA stuff as well, although certainly not the level of Paul Elam and the like.

Roosh's big downfall is that one of his books (supposedly nonfictional) features him having sex with an unconscious drunk woman - he says that the country he was in had no laws against this, but the actual country disagreed. He ended up being banned from a few countries (or possibly just Australia), venues decided they didn't want some dude who bragged about raping women around, and eventually websites like Paypal (notoriously strict about this sort of thing), Amazon, and so forth.
I didn't know about the unconscious woman incident, so I thought banning him was excessive. But this puts it in a new light.

Roosh seemed weirdly likeable in his podcasts and is clearly intelligent. But his ideas are toxic, self-contradicting, casually sexist and racist and transparently self-serving. Apparently, he has a girlfriend now. Anything to get out of Ukraine, I guess.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 01:26 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
yeah, it's conflating three distinct online men's "movements".

MRA's (who want to see their kids after divorce, and correct legal injustices towards men)
PUA's (mostly harmless shy men who want a girlfriend or want to get laid and look for guidance, some creeps there obviously)
The Red Pill (guys with a cynical and often misogynistic view of women)

The site in question was on the extreme end of even that. I've never visited the site, but I've listened to some of the podcasts by the owner (Roosh V). I'm assuming the content was similar. He has a surprisingly pleasant late-night radio-host voice.
Yeah

It is in some peoples interest to blur them

Same thing happens with those into feminist equality issues and their off shoot radicals though I suppose
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Old 3rd October 2018, 01:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Yeah

It is in some peoples interest to blur them

Same thing happens with those into feminist equality issues and their off shoot radicals though I suppose
It's the tendency to conflate people of a certain bend with their most extreme manifestation. People who want immigration laws enforced are basically Nazis. People who want accessible healthcare are basically communists. Men who want to see their kids are basically the Handmaids Tale.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 03:04 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
It's the tendency to conflate people of a certain bend with their most extreme manifestation. People who want immigration laws enforced are basically Nazis. People who want accessible healthcare are basically communists. Men who want to see their kids are basically the Handmaids Tale.
And the vast majority of people who just want fairness for everybody give up on actually taking much interest.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 03:15 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
It's the tendency to conflate people of a certain bend with their most extreme manifestation. People who want immigration laws enforced are basically Nazis.
No one wants them enforced that would leave to many immigrants left and not have the profitable for profit concentration camps. Hence why all the violations of the laws by the government are so popular.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:10 AM   #11
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http://www.returnofkings.com/31590/5...ights-activist

http://www.returnofkings.com/7877/th...-place-for-men

(probably NSFW - I don't read this crap)

Don't conflate PUAs with MRAs.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:21 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
All true. He sort of went into MRA stuff as well, although certainly not the level of Paul Elam and the like.

Roosh's big downfall is that one of his books (supposedly nonfictional) features him having sex with an unconscious drunk woman - he says that the country he was in had no laws against this, but the actual country disagreed. He ended up being banned from a few countries (or possibly just Australia), venues decided they didn't want some dude who bragged about raping women around, and eventually websites like Paypal (notoriously strict about this sort of thing), Amazon, and so forth just banned him (or tried to - Amazon dropped some but not all of his books).
Paul Elam's A Voice For Men IS a (the most controversial, well-trafficked) MRA website.

r/mensrights is probably second on that list of go-to places but seems to be getting worse over time since it is not moderated heavily (which is a plus in my book) but other subreddits for incels, MGTOW, PUAs, etc. are being deleted/banned/quarantined.

The most popular MRAs and the MRM have NOTHING to do with PUAs, and are more likely to lean or suggest MGTOW than PUA:

Honey Badgers/Alison Tieman/Karen Straughan
AVFM
Mike Buchanon (sp?)
Janice Fiamengo/StudioBrule
CAFE (they don't openly say they are MRM but effectively are)
r/mensrights
Warren Farrel
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
yeah, it's conflating three distinct online men's "movements".

MRA's (who want to see their kids after divorce, and correct legal injustices towards men)
PUA's (mostly harmless shy men who want a girlfriend or want to get laid and look for guidance, some creeps there obviously)
The Red Pill (guys with a cynical and often misogynistic view of women)

The site in question was on the extreme end of even that. I've never visited the site, but I've listened to some of the podcasts by the owner (Roosh V). I'm assuming the content was similar. He has a surprisingly pleasant late-night radio-host voice.
I believe it's fair to say that r/theredpill (nothing to do with the movie by Cassie Jaye) is mostly PUAs but also very hateful/bigoted as you suggest. IIRC it was also just quarantined by reddit
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:39 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I believe it's fair to say that r/theredpill (nothing to do with the movie by Cassie Jaye) is mostly PUAs but also very hateful/bigoted as you suggest. IIRC it was also just quarantined by reddit
I've noticed a nasty side effect to the recent ban-fever:
Extremist site/subreddit/forum/whatever is banned. The now orphaned extremists migrate to moderate forums that allow controversial speech. This forum is now labelled as extremist by the outside, drawing in more extremists and prompting calls for banning that forum. Forum is closed, extremists migrate, rinse, repeat.

It has made me realise that the rules of this forum are really very good. Probably the reason I still come here.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I believe it's fair to say that r/theredpill (nothing to do with the movie by Cassie Jaye) is mostly PUAs but also very hateful/bigoted as you suggest. IIRC it was also just quarantined by reddit
I can't believe she worked on that damned film for four years and then chose such a bad title.

It's like making a film about Anarchists and naming the end product 'Meet the Communists'.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:45 AM   #16
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Well, to be fair the phrase "taking the red pill" is a movie reference to the matrix, and is used by more than just PUAs.

It's an apt descriptor for her journey, imo, but using it always comes off as a bit... I don't know the word for it. Arrogant? Elitist? conspiracy theorist?

Anyway, I get her point. I probably would have called it something different as well as it is just another lazy excuse for people to equivocate between groups
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
yeah, it's conflating three distinct online men's "movements".

MRA's (who want to see their kids after divorce, and correct legal injustices towards men)
PUA's (mostly harmless shy men who want a girlfriend or want to get laid and look for guidance, some creeps there obviously)
The Red Pill (guys with a cynical and often misogynistic view of women)
Nah, that's way too complex. Let's just put them all in the same basket. Easier.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:57 PM   #18
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I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking feminism. That makes them MRA's and no one will change my mind on that.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking feminism. That makes them MRA's and no one will change my mind on that.
I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking conservatives. That makes them communists and no one will change my mind on that.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:22 PM   #20
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A small fraction of people who are anti-feminists or more broadly people who criticize feminism but don't identify as anti-feminists are also MRAs.

I'm not surprised that people are so closed-minded on this, though. Anything to group people into one category of "bad people".
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:46 PM   #21
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MRA's, Incels, MGTOW's and PUA's are all the same.

A ****** bunch of misogynistic losers with no redeeming qualities.

I hope they all die in a fire.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:58 PM   #22
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And I just love how any discussion on even the worst scum of the so called "manosphere" inevitably turns into a anti-feminist circlejerk.

This thread is about admitted rapist Roosh The Douche, not your ******* problems with women.

So predictable.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 06:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
And I just love how any discussion on even the worst scum of the so called "manosphere" inevitably turns into a anti-feminist circlejerk.

This thread is about admitted rapist Roosh The Douche, not your ******* problems with women.

So predictable.
The only sexist comments on this thread seem to be against men

But good luck with that

Haters gotta hate I suppose
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Old 4th October 2018, 04:14 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
MRA's, Incels, MGTOW's and PUA's are all the same.

A ****** bunch of misogynistic losers with no redeeming qualities.

I hope they all die in a fire.
Even if they are all "A ****** bunch of misogynistic losers with no redeeming qualities." that doesn't mean that they are "all the same". They can be a bunch of misogynistic losers with different defining qualities.

I don't know if you're right that they are all a bunch of misogynistic losers, but the fact that each group is defined by having different properties suggest to me that they are not all the same.
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Old 4th October 2018, 04:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking feminism. That makes them MRA's and no one will change my mind on that.
"I'm completely close-minded and I can't believe people can disagree with me!"
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Old 4th October 2018, 05:23 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
MRA's, Incels, MGTOW's and PUA's are all the same.

A ****** bunch of misogynistic losers with no redeeming qualities.

I hope they all die in a fire.
You hope non-violent activists, men who can't get a girlfriend, men who choose to live as bachelors and men who want one-night-stands 'die in a fire'?

Can you tell the class how you feel about the Jews?
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Old 4th October 2018, 06:23 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking feminism.
How very dare they! I'd never heard of MRA but now that I hear they have a different opinion to feminists it's clear they are real scum. Nazis too.
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Old 4th October 2018, 06:26 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I hope they all die in a fire.
Yesterday you support shooting people for their political beliefs and now you express your wishes for people to be burned to death. That's nice.
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Old 4th October 2018, 06:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Noted MRA website, giant toilet of toxic masculinity, Return of Kings has closed down
Oh noes. You'll have to go out and purposely look out for and find something else that you specifically have to go seek out to get outraged about.

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Old 4th October 2018, 06:37 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh noes. You'll have to go out and purposely look out for and find something else that you specifically have to go seek out to get outraged about.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bad_opinions.png
Ouch.
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:15 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I didn't know about the unconscious woman incident, so I thought banning him was excessive. But this puts it in a new light.

Roosh seemed weirdly likeable in his podcasts and is clearly intelligent. But his ideas are toxic, self-contradicting, casually sexist and racist and transparently self-serving. Apparently, he has a girlfriend now. Anything to get out of Ukraine, I guess.
To be clear, I'm deeply suspicious of the PUA "industry" - and any other industry that consists of high-priced books, CDs, and seminars that make unbelievable promises.

Having said that, there's definitely some need for young men (and women most, but I'm currently more concerned with the guys) who need some basic handholding in How To Get a Girlfriend, and the negative version of the PUA forums is brutally self-demoralizing Incel forums. I'm not at all convinced that PUAs are the proper place for it (and I claim absolutely no expertise on how to even make such a call), but if it does help for some guys, it may be okay.

My issues with Roosh are both the rape, and the bigotry that you mentioned.
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:18 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh noes. You'll have to go out and purposely look out for and find something else that you specifically have to go seek out to get outraged about.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bad_opinions.png
To be fair, these PUA/MRA/incel types rarely stay contained in a neat and tidy way that is easy to ignore. PUA advice is often just a guide to date rape, sexual harassment, and social manipulation. Incel nonsense is basically mass shooter fuel. This toxic crap affects more than just the losers who believe it. This stuff regularly impacts third parties in the meat space. Just ask any girl that has been "negged" or aggressively pawed at by some PUA idiot. Incels have committed targeted murders and their routine threats are not easily ignored.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
To be clear, I'm deeply suspicious of the PUA "industry" - and any other industry that consists of high-priced books, CDs, and seminars that make unbelievable promises.
I am also suspicious of these dubious PUA "experts". Making a quick buck as a guru is a popular scheme for those that are socially talented and morally flexible. All sorts of experts go around preaching their systems, be it wealth schemes, alternative health quacks, or PUA. Whether they actually believe their own system is irrelevant because those they sell to are not knowledgeable enough on the subject matter to realize they are being misled. PUA are like the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" author of the dating world. They make a fortune spouting bad advice that sounds meaningful to those that don't know any better.
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:58 AM   #33
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I think we need a glossary here. I get PUA and MRA, but can't remember what Incel and MGTOW stand for (in either sense).

Dave
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:06 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think we need a glossary here. I get PUA and MRA, but can't remember what Incel and MGTOW stand for (in either sense).

Dave
MGTOW= men going their own way

Incel= involuntary celibate
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:08 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think we need a glossary here. I get PUA and MRA, but can't remember what Incel and MGTOW stand for (in either sense).

Dave
"incel" = "Involuntarily celibate" which seems to be this weird claim that having sex is some sort of inherent right and women withhold sex as a... power play I guess you'd call it and that them doing so is a form of discrimination or something. Has a particularly toxic membership/fanbase. It's all very weird and in that serious/not serious troll/poe/actual opinion vaguery.
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:16 AM   #36
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
MGTOW= men going their own way
Isn't that just a euphemism for masturbation?

Dave
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:41 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Isn't that just a euphemism for masturbation?

Dave
'Men Doing Their Own Thing'?
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:51 AM   #38
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:58 AM   #39
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... Often... ?

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:58 AM   #40
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Maybe Grab The Ol' Willy?
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