ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 4th October 2018, 09:00 AM   #41
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,926
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
... Often... ?

Dave
Better.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 09:01 AM   #42
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,220
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Even if they are all "A ****** bunch of misogynistic losers with no redeeming qualities." that doesn't mean that they are "all the same". They can be a bunch of misogynistic losers with different defining qualities.

I don't know if you're right that they are all a bunch of misogynistic losers, but the fact that each group is defined by having different properties suggest to me that they are not all the same.
Because it is important to separate the alt right from the ethno nationalists from the white supremacists.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 09:08 AM   #43
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Isn't that just a euphemism for masturbation?

Dave
It's guys who are not very attractive to women and are scared of the divorce laws. They choose to remain bachelors and focus on themselves instead of torturing themselves with bad dates, fruitless hours on Tinder and the legal dangers that come with marriage in the US.

Some of them think they are doing the 'John Galt' thing and depriving women and society of their commitment.
Some were married to sociopathic women who used them and dumped them as soon as alimony and child support was secured.
Some are unattractive or awkward and just find it more fulfilling to focus on work, sport, gaming whatever.

So, basically nazi's whom I hope will die in a fire.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 09:19 AM   #44
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because it is important to separate the alt right from the ethno nationalists from the white supremacists.
Conservatives, Neocons, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Classical Liberals, Alt-Right, Fascists, Traditionalists, Monarchists, Neo-Reactionaries etc etc etc.

The three you mentioned happen to be synonymous. But the right has a wide range of philosophies, most of them explicitly anti-racist.

Are you on some crusade against precise speech or something?

Are still allowed to separate Marxists, Leninists, Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Anarchists, Anarcho-Syndicalists etc etc etc?

Or shall we just lump them all together under the 'Commie' label?
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 09:20 AM   #45
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,220
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Conservatives, Neocons, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Classical Liberals, Alt-Right, Fascists, Traditionalists, Monarchists, Neo-Reactionaries etc etc etc.

The three you mentioned happen to be synonymous.
No they are not, those are all clearly distinct groups just ask them.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 09:22 AM   #46
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No they are not, those are all clearly distinct groups just ask them.
You're right. I guess I contradicted myself there.

They do have racism as a shared value, though.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 10:44 AM   #47
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,701
I agree with Lambchop. They should all die a fire.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 10:57 AM   #48
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,457
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking feminism. That makes them MRA's and no one will change my mind on that.
So you don't really want a discussion you're just here for ego-stroking, got it.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 10:58 AM   #49
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,457
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post

A ****** bunch of misogynistic losers with no redeeming qualities.

I hope they all die in a fire.

Until one of your relatives is a member am I right?
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 10:59 AM   #50
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,457
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I agree with Lambchop. They should all die a fire.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:13 AM   #51
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,907
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I agree with Lambchop. They should all die a fire.
Lol
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:16 AM   #52
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,472
Dying in a fire seems harsh. How about a nasty infection from the blisters on their palms?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:17 AM   #53
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,926
Won't they get hair in their palms from MGTOWing anyway?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:19 AM   #54
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,472
Not if they Make Grip Turn Other Ways
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:21 AM   #55
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,701
Isn't excessive masturbating supposed to make you blind? Maybe they'll all go blind and fall into a fire.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:22 AM   #56
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Won't they get hair in their palms from MGTOWing anyway?
Dammit. You beat me to that joke.

Here's a blast from the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAWxTMxsgQ0
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:24 AM   #57
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,244
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"incel" = "Involuntarily celibate" which seems to be this weird claim that having sex is some sort of inherent right and women withhold sex as a... power play I guess you'd call it and that them doing so is a form of discrimination or something. Has a particularly toxic membership/fanbase. It's all very weird and in that serious/not serious troll/poe/actual opinion vaguery.
Having taken a peek into a few such forums...honestly, if it weren't for their habit of turning into mass murderers and other incredibly violent people, I'd feel bad at how much time they spent reassuring each other that they were ugly, weak, or otherwise unfit to have a basic relationship.

That whole "turn into mass murderers" thing is very important, though.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:26 AM   #58
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Until one of your relatives is a member am I right?
Except for Uncle Fred. Uncle Fred and his hairy palms can go die in a fire.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:26 AM   #59
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,472
Friction burns?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:27 AM   #60
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,926
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Having taken a peek into a few such forums...honestly, if it weren't for their habit of turning into mass murderers and other incredibly violent people, I'd feel bad at how much time they spent reassuring each other that they were ugly, weak, or otherwise unfit to have a basic relationship.

That whole "turn into mass murderers" thing is very important, though.
...how'd they manage to turn into mass murderers (I assume you have several examples) if they're otherwise doing what you describe?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:34 AM   #61
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,907
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Having taken a peek into a few such forums...honestly, if it weren't for their habit of turning into mass murderers and other incredibly violent people, I'd feel bad at how much time they spent reassuring each other that they were ugly, weak, or otherwise unfit to have a basic relationship.

That whole "turn into mass murderers" thing is very important, though.

I thought it was postal workers that all turn into mass murderers?......Or was it American high school students?

I'm always getting my mass generalisations mixed up.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 12:16 PM   #62
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,770
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
yeah, it's conflating three distinct online men's "movements".

MRA's (who want to see their kids after divorce, and correct legal injustices towards men)
PUA's (mostly harmless shy men who want a girlfriend or want to get laid and look for guidance, some creeps there obviously)
The Red Pill (guys with a cynical and often misogynistic view of women)
....
Seems to be a reasonable summation of three groups.

Those wanting to see Daddies to die in a fire seem kind of extreme. Or do you not know any man who got screwed on child support rules? Wife took the kids and moved out of state? Claimed HIS son, also a child, was molesting 'their' kids. **** like that ought to make everybody a Male Rights SJW.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 12:23 PM   #63
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,306
"I can find ******** on the internet, ergo the world is doomed" is going to be the end of the species.

I swear the worst thing that ever happened is the ability to at a moment's notice instantly find someone that justifies whatever outrage you've already decided you're having.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 12:27 PM   #64
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,220
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I can find ******** on the internet, ergo the world is doomed" is going to be the end of the species.

I swear the worst thing that ever happened is the ability to at a moment's notice instantly find someone that justifies whatever outrage you've already decided you're having.
Except that the stuff on the internet has real consequences like how facebook was fueling the hated gainst the Rohingya in Myanmar. Because it became synonymous with the internet there and was great at spreading conspiracy theories and lies.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1GO2PN
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 12:47 PM   #65
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Having taken a peek into a few such forums...honestly, if it weren't for their habit of turning into mass murderers and other incredibly violent people, I'd feel bad at how much time they spent reassuring each other that they were ugly, weak, or otherwise unfit to have a basic relationship.

That whole "turn into mass murderers" thing is very important, though.
Most incels are just shy guys. But there is a subset that is ridiculously toxic.

Their subreddit got shut down. But we still have the good people of r/inceltears to report back to the human world by collecting their angry rants on various forums and collect them in one handy platform.

For those who fancy a trip into the underworld, I present https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 12:48 PM   #66
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 12,643
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I can find ******** on the internet, ergo the world is doomed" is going to be the end of the species.

I swear the worst thing that ever happened is the ability to at a moment's notice instantly find someone that justifies whatever outrage you've already decided you're having.
Why, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard! I found this website that agrees with me...

Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 01:03 PM   #67
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,324
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
yeah, it's conflating three distinct online men's "movements".

MRA's (who want to see their kids after divorce, and correct legal injustices towards men)
PUA's (mostly harmless shy men who want a girlfriend or want to get laid and look for guidance, some creeps there obviously)
The Red Pill (guys with a cynical and often misogynistic view of women)
The reason for that conflation is that these categories aren't mutually exclusive. A person belonging to any one of these groups is highly likely to belong to another one of them; particularly almost all of them will tend to concur with the most basic/sterilized-for-public-relations-purposes MRA tenets.

I think it would be a lot more accurate to describe groups like PUA's, MGTOW, "red pillers" and incels as separate branches extending from the MRA trunk - except even that fails because an individual can belong to more than one "branch". It's an intricate lattice.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 01:10 PM   #68
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,907
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The reason for that conflation is that these categories aren't mutually exclusive. A person belonging to any one of these groups is highly likely to belong to another one of them; particularly almost all of them will tend to concur with the most basic/sterilized-for-public-relations-purposes MRA tenets.

I think it would be a lot more accurate to describe groups like PUA's, MGTOW, "red pillers" and incels as separate branches extending from the MRA trunk - except even that fails because an individual can belong to more than one "branch". It's an intricate lattice.
Don't see the big complexity of it


It is basically the same as feminists and the nutters that branch off that.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 01:29 PM   #69
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,306
Can't risk actually talking about the individual and the opinion they are expressing at the moment.

They have to be properly labeled and categorized so they can serve as a spokesman, strawman, example of, Poe of, no true Scotsman of (depending) for their tribe.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 01:45 PM   #70
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,126
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dying in a fire seems harsh. How about a nasty infection from the blisters on their palms?
Nah. They're probably all using a Fleshlight™.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 02:30 PM   #71
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,870
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
You're right. I guess I contradicted myself there.

They do have racism as a shared value, though.

Just like Incels, PUAs, MGTOWs, and an unfortunately large chunk of MRAs have sexism/misogyny/anti-feminism as a shared value.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 02:39 PM   #72
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,973
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...how'd they manage to turn into mass murderers (I assume you have several examples) if they're otherwise doing what you describe?
Elliot Roger and Alek Minassian immediately come to mind. We're probably lucky that Mark Lépine happened before the spread of the internet to the masses.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 05:44 PM   #73
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 7,915
Ah... So not a mis-spelling of NRA then?

__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat...
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 06:33 PM   #74
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,926
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Elliot Roger and Alek Minassian immediately come to mind. We're probably lucky that Mark Lépine happened before the spread of the internet to the masses.
I'm not asking for a handful of names. I want to know how one leads to the other.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 06:47 PM   #75
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,184
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because it is important to separate the alt right from the ethno nationalists from the white supremacists.
Like with many other group classifications, there's overlap. Sometimes you have a group like Albertans that is included in another group Canadians, but that doesn't mean that they are synonymous, because while all Albertans are Canadians, not all Canadians are Albertans.

I actually don't know that much about the distinctions between the three groups you mention, but I'd venture to say that, as Eddie Dane mentioned, at least they are all included in another group Racists. If you want to say that all racists are racist, that's cool, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to make distinctions between sub-groups of racists, like racists-taller-than-six-feet and racists-shorter-than-six-feet.

As to the groups under discussion, and Lambchops' comment about them, I think Luchog said it in a much more rational way. He suggest that whatever the differences between them; all are misogynists. Again, I don't know if that's accurate, but it seems to me to be a much more reasonable claim.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov

Last edited by Roboramma; 4th October 2018 at 06:48 PM.
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 09:35 PM   #76
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,907
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Like with many other group classifications, there's overlap. Sometimes you have a group like Albertans that is included in another group Canadians, but that doesn't mean that they are synonymous, because while all Albertans are Canadians, not all Canadians are Albertans.

I actually don't know that much about the distinctions between the three groups you mention, but I'd venture to say that, as Eddie Dane mentioned, at least they are all included in another group Racists. If you want to say that all racists are racist, that's cool, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to make distinctions between sub-groups of racists, like racists-taller-than-six-feet and racists-shorter-than-six-feet.

As to the groups under discussion, and Lambchops' comment about them, I think Luchog said it in a much more rational way. He suggest that whatever the differences between them; all are misogynists. Again, I don't know if that's accurate, but it seems to me to be a much more reasonable claim.

It doesn't take a massive amount of logic to come to if all MRA's are misogynists, then all female rights activists must be misandrists
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 10:45 PM   #77
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,184
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It doesn't take a massive amount of logic to come to if all MRA's are misogynists, then all female rights activists must be misandrists
It doesn't actually follow. I'm also not agreeing with Luchog's claim that all MRAs etc. are misogynists, only that it's a more reasonable position to take than that all those groups are identical to each other. I think the issue that Lampchops has is that he thinks, like Luchog, that they are all misogynists, and this is to him the relevant point.

Whether or not Luchog's claim is true I don't know. I certainly think it's possible to think that men are being treated poorly in respect to some particular issues without being a misogynist, but whether or not those who identify as MRAs, or PUAs or whatever those other acronyms are, actually just turn out to all be misogynists is a factual claim about the world that we can't determine through logic alone. It could go either way and I don't actually know.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov

Last edited by Roboramma; 4th October 2018 at 10:46 PM.
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2018, 11:06 PM   #78
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,907
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It doesn't actually follow. I'm also not agreeing with Luchog's claim that all MRAs etc. are misogynists, only that it's a more reasonable position to take than that all those groups are identical to each other. I think the issue that Lampchops has is that he thinks, like Luchog, that they are all misogynists, and this is to him the relevant point.

Whether or not Luchog's claim is true I don't know. I certainly think it's possible to think that men are being treated poorly in respect to some particular issues without being a misogynist, but whether or not those who identify as MRAs, or PUAs or whatever those other acronyms are, actually just turn out to all be misogynists is a factual claim about the world that we can't determine through logic alone. It could go either way and I don't actually know.

Fair point

I think for Luchog's claim to be shown as true, it would need some pretty impressive amount of evidence
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2018, 02:07 AM   #79
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,244
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not asking for a handful of names. I want to know how one leads to the other.
My only real guess is that severe depression in men is more likely to lead to aggression than in women. I have little doubt that you could find forums for women that are as self-defeating and toxic as the worst incel forums, it's the guys that decide to go out as mass murderers (mass murderers in the US are almost entirely male - and we're the only country I know of that gets a few mass murders per week, providing for a reasonably high count).
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2018, 04:11 AM   #80
pharphis
Graduate Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,743
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It doesn't actually follow. I'm also not agreeing with Luchog's claim that all MRAs etc. are misogynists, only that it's a more reasonable position to take than that all those groups are identical to each other. I think the issue that Lampchops has is that he thinks, like Luchog, that they are all misogynists, and this is to him the relevant point.

Whether or not Luchog's claim is true I don't know. I certainly think it's possible to think that men are being treated poorly in respect to some particular issues without being a misogynist, but whether or not those who identify as MRAs, or PUAs or whatever those other acronyms are, actually just turn out to all be misogynists is a factual claim about the world that we can't determine through logic alone. It could go either way and I don't actually know.
"it could go either way"

Except all you need is a single counter example. Honestly, why is this even being entertained as possibly true? Even the claim "most" is leagues more reasonable than "all"

Here's a counter-example:
NCFM is not misogynist, and are an MRA group.
CAFE is not misogynist, and are an MRA group.
Karen Straughan is not misogynist, and is an MRA who advocates for men to "go their own way".
Harry Crouch is not misogynist, and is an MRA.

If I had to make an educated guess, the most misogynistic of the groups mentioned would be MGTOW or r/redpill folk. I wouldn't classify PUAs as simply misogynist, but that might be in part because I struggle to see how someone can hate an entire sex and still place their self-validation on trying to have sex with them.

Last edited by pharphis; 5th October 2018 at 04:14 AM.
pharphis is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.