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Old 5th October 2018, 04:17 AM   #81
Roboramma
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Yeah, I think you're right that I was wrong to say it could go either way in reference to all. But I guess what I was trying to get across is that I'm not sure if there's something inherently misogynistic about the MRA movement in general, and I can see how that might be the case.

I realise that's a much weaker claim, but I also think it's actually closer to what Luchog was saying than my last poorly worded post, though I should probably let him speak for himself.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:19 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"incel" = "Involuntarily celibate" which seems to be this weird claim that having sex is some sort of inherent right and women withhold sex as a... power play I guess you'd call it and that them doing so is a form of discrimination or something. Has a particularly toxic membership/fanbase. It's all very weird and in that serious/not serious troll/poe/actual opinion vaguery.
An "Involuntarily celibate" is simply somebody who doesn't have sex because they can't find anybody who's willing to have sex with them.

The whole "...and therefore I hate women" thing is a pretty recent addition to the mix. A lot of incels hate it because the group has never been particularly well known and then suddenly they are, but the only thing anybody talks about is how they're all a bunch of dangerous hate-filled lunatics. Which at least some of them aren't at all.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:25 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
An "Involuntarily celibate" is simply somebody who doesn't have sex because they can't find anybody who's willing to have sex with them.

The whole "...and therefore I hate women" thing is a pretty recent addition to the mix. A lot of incels hate it because the group has never been particularly well known and then suddenly they are, but the only thing anybody talks about is how they're all a bunch of dangerous hate-filled lunatics. Which at least some of them aren't at all.
Yeah, I think in general people finding other people who have the same problems and can sympathise with them isn't such a bad thing, though if it lets them wallow in their problems and not do anything to improve then it certainly is. But sometimes it's nice to just have someone else who understands your issues to talk to.

I remember what it was like to be the awkward kid in highschool that girls just weren't interested in, and I can't really fault some guys who are going through that wanting to have people to talk to who can understand them.

When that becomes blaming women for that problem, rather than looking at themselves and trying to understand how to improve themselves, then I do have an issue with it, but the general idea of "incels" wanting to identify with each other seems okay.

I guess it really depends on to what extent the so-called movement (damn I hate movements) has become more about blaming women than looking at and attempting to improve their own inadequacies.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:30 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
My only real guess is that severe depression in men is more likely to lead to aggression than in women. I have little doubt that you could find forums for women that are as self-defeating and toxic as the worst incel forums, it's the guys that decide to go out as mass murderers (mass murderers in the US are almost entirely male - and we're the only country I know of that gets a few mass murders per week, providing for a reasonably high count).
There were forums for suicidal people where posters were encouraged to take their own lives by other posters. Sort of a group-hug centered death cult. I don't think all the posters were women, but that's the closest I can think of to the kind of destructive crap we see on incel forums.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There were forums for suicidal people where posters were encouraged to take their own lives by other posters. Sort of a group-hug centered death cult. I don't think all the posters were women, but that's the closest I can think of to the kind of destructive crap we see on incel forums.
Yeah, I think that's the real problem with these kinds of things. People with problems just taking each other deeper into their messed up issues instead of helping each other to come out of them.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:37 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
"it could go either way"

Except all you need is a single counter example. Honestly, why is this even being entertained as possibly true? Even the claim "most" is leagues more reasonable than "all"

Here's a counter-example:
NCFM is not misogynist, and are an MRA group.
CAFE is not misogynist, and are an MRA group.
Karen Straughan is not misogynist, and is an MRA who advocates for men to "go their own way".
Harry Crouch is not misogynist, and is an MRA.

If I had to make an educated guess, the most misogynistic of the groups mentioned would be MGTOW or r/redpill folk. I wouldn't classify PUAs as simply misogynist, but that might be in part because I struggle to see how someone can hate an entire sex and still place their self-validation on trying to have sex with them.
Didn't know who the two people you listed where so I checked.

Lauren Straughan is described as an "anti-feminist" youtuber and is often seen together with white supremacists like Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux. Not really a good sign.

Harry Crouch is apparently president of the National Coalition for Men who, among other things, out sexual assault victims that have their cases dismissed as "false accusers". Nice bloke.
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Old 5th October 2018, 05:01 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Didn't know who the two people you listed where so I checked.

Lauren Straughan is described as an "anti-feminist" youtuber and is often seen together with white supremacists like Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux. Not really a good sign.

Harry Crouch is apparently president of the National Coalition for Men who, among other things, out sexual assault victims that have their cases dismissed as "false accusers". Nice bloke.
If you think that's a bad sign, I'm sorry to inform you of the deep ties between early Feminism and Fascism.
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Old 5th October 2018, 05:03 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
If you think that's a bad sign, I'm sorry to inform you of the deep ties between early Feminism and Fascism.
Did you just post a tu quoque? You're better than that.

ETA: Interesting article, btw. You should read it.
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Old 5th October 2018, 06:46 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
II think the issue that Lampchops has is that he thinks, like Luchog, that they are all misogynists, and this is to him the relevant point.
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think for Luchog's claim to be shown as true, it would need some pretty impressive amount of evidence

I never claimed that all MRAs are misogynist. You two need to work on your reading comprehension and stop creating straw men.
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Old 5th October 2018, 06:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Noted MRA website, giant toilet of toxic masculinity, Return of Kings has closed down. They cite decreased revenue and ambiguous "censorship" for this turn of events.


https://www.wonkette.com/let-us-danc...eturn-of-kings


What I find interesting is the notion in the article, that I agree with, is that the MRA movement has morphed from being about sexual conquests via pick up artist douchebaggery into being about "marry a virgin then keep them locked up" patriarchal dystopian nightmare ala The Handsmaid's Tale. Personally I find this a disturbing turn for a movement that was pretty disgusting in the first place.



I feel this is how they have changed just based on the way they talk in the comments sections anywhere they think is a properly insulated safe space where their notions of gender roles can come freely out of them like so much acrid vomit.
You are pretty angry about a website.
Do you get angry easily?
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Old 5th October 2018, 06:54 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You are pretty angry about a website.
Do you get angry easily?
Step 1. Decide you want to get angry about something.
Step 2. Go to the magical machine on your desk who's sole purpose is the categorization all human behavior and opinions and that make finding extreme positions, including those held by people in anonymity, as easy as possible and purposely go find the thing you want to be angry about.
Step 3. Validate rage.
Step 4. Feel superior and woke.
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Old 5th October 2018, 07:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
An "Involuntarily celibate" is simply somebody who doesn't have sex because they can't find anybody who's willing to have sex with them.

The whole "...and therefore I hate women" thing is a pretty recent addition to the mix. A lot of incels hate it because the group has never been particularly well known and then suddenly they are, but the only thing anybody talks about is how they're all a bunch of dangerous hate-filled lunatics. Which at least some of them aren't at all.

Except that the Incel movement is inherently misogynistic and always has been, although formerly in a much more subtle way. Okay, misogynistic may be a bit too strong a term, but it has always been based on sexism and objectification of women at the very least. Women are treated as some sort of alien race competely removed from men, as objects to be pursued and acquired, not as individual people with similar desires and needs.

A web of fantasies and conspiracy theories has been built up, further emphasizing and elaborating upon this supposed unbridgeable gulf between men and women. Now, this is something that is present to some degree in mainstream culture, the whole "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" garbage, or a predatory-and-prey dynamic where men are suppose to "hunt" women, and measure their self-worth by their sexual conquests. But the Incel mindset exaggerates this attitude to ludicrous proportions in an attempt to absolve men from both their failure to meet up to these nonsensical cultural standards, and for their own failure as people.

If women don't want to sleep with them, it's because of a conspiracy by women, or because women don't know what is best for them, or women are too naive and mind-controlled by more cleverly predatorial men. It's never because of their own poor grooming standards, their own ****box attitudes, or their own insistence on treating women as things to be pursued, instead of people to be respected and interacted with. And that's the problem, there's a great deal of fear of women, which quickly becomes hate for women, and little to no respect for them as people.

They are the ones who insist "women only want jerks/guys who are bad for them", while labeling themselves "nice guys", and parroting the "nice guys finish last" garbage. Except that they're not "nice guys", they're passive-aggressive idiots who treat women as sex vending machines, believing that if they put in the time and effort to be "nice", to be helpful, to be friendly, then then should get sex in return. When that doesn't happen, they whinge about being "friend-zoned", and completely lack the self-awareness to understand how it is that they're actually treating women, and the real reason they can't find women who are attracted to them.

Most of them have an unrealistic expectation of women as well. They grew up on popular entertainment media that tells them that the ugly guy will always get the beauty queen if they're dogged and persistent enough in their pursuit, never really understanding 1) just how creepy that sort of behaviour is in real life, veering into sexual harassment at times; and 2) just how objectifying that is against women, since the two people involved in those sorts of stories typically have nothing whatsoever in common, no point on which they can connect, and the women is portrayed with no real agency or personality of her own. It's never about making a real personal connection with the object of desire, it's strictly about the status the guy achieves by "bagging" the women who represents the cultural standard of desirability.

Nearly all of them, if they took the time to drop the attitude, stopped looking at women as mere status symbols, and made the effort to tidy themselves up a bit, would find that there are quite a few women that would be perfectly happy to have sex with them, and who they could have a real emotional and personal connection with, but who don't quite measure up to the cultural ideals of desirability any more than the guys do.

I used to have something of that attitude myself when I was younger and dumber, that sense of "otherness" regarding women. Lots of people my age did; as I noted, it's very much a cultural thing. But I was fortunate enough to have friends around me, both female and male, who were able to metaphorically slap some sense into me, and help me understand just how stupid I was being. I eventually grew up, and found that if I treated women as people like myself, and took the time to connect with them as people, as a real friend not as a "nice guy", and didn't make sex the defining characteristic of our interactions, then yes some of them were actually attracted to me and would be happy to have sex with me. Including a few who cultural standards would have defined as "way out of my league". Most of whom I'm still friends with.

Unfortunately, with the Internet around today, it's much easier for such people to avoid that kind of sensible advice, to find and sequester themselves in echo chambers that feed their bad attitudes, exacerbate and reinforce them, until they become, in the worst cases, full-blown violent misogynists taking their "revenge" on the women they believe have "wronged" them.
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Old 5th October 2018, 08:02 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I never claimed that all MRAs are misogynist. You two need to work on your reading comprehension and stop creating straw men.
As I said in my next post, you are right I misspoke. My fault, I was having a hard time properly framing my thoughts.
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Old 5th October 2018, 09:07 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Didn't know who the two people you listed where so I checked.

Lauren Straughan is described as an "anti-feminist" youtuber and is often seen together with white supremacists like Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux. Not really a good sign.

Harry Crouch is apparently president of the National Coalition for Men who, among other things, out sexual assault victims that have their cases dismissed as "false accusers". Nice bloke.
Anti-feminist does not mean misogynist.

I'm not familiar with what you're talking about for Crouch.
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Old 5th October 2018, 09:11 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except that the Incel movement is inherently misogynistic and always has been, although formerly in a much more subtle way. Okay, misogynistic may be a bit too strong a term, but it has always been based on sexism and objectification of women at the very least. Women are treated as some sort of alien race competely removed from men, as objects to be pursued and acquired, not as individual people with similar desires and needs.

A web of fantasies and conspiracy theories has been built up, further emphasizing and elaborating upon this supposed unbridgeable gulf between men and women. Now, this is something that is present to some degree in mainstream culture, the whole "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" garbage, or a predatory-and-prey dynamic where men are suppose to "hunt" women, and measure their self-worth by their sexual conquests. But the Incel mindset exaggerates this attitude to ludicrous proportions in an attempt to absolve men from both their failure to meet up to these nonsensical cultural standards, and for their own failure as people.

If women don't want to sleep with them, it's because of a conspiracy by women, or because women don't know what is best for them, or women are too naive and mind-controlled by more cleverly predatorial men. It's never because of their own poor grooming standards, their own ****box attitudes, or their own insistence on treating women as things to be pursued, instead of people to be respected and interacted with. And that's the problem, there's a great deal of fear of women, which quickly becomes hate for women, and little to no respect for them as people.

They are the ones who insist "women only want jerks/guys who are bad for them", while labeling themselves "nice guys", and parroting the "nice guys finish last" garbage. Except that they're not "nice guys", they're passive-aggressive idiots who treat women as sex vending machines, believing that if they put in the time and effort to be "nice", to be helpful, to be friendly, then then should get sex in return. When that doesn't happen, they whinge about being "friend-zoned", and completely lack the self-awareness to understand how it is that they're actually treating women, and the real reason they can't find women who are attracted to them.

Most of them have an unrealistic expectation of women as well. They grew up on popular entertainment media that tells them that the ugly guy will always get the beauty queen if they're dogged and persistent enough in their pursuit, never really understanding 1) just how creepy that sort of behaviour is in real life, veering into sexual harassment at times; and 2) just how objectifying that is against women, since the two people involved in those sorts of stories typically have nothing whatsoever in common, no point on which they can connect, and the women is portrayed with no real agency or personality of her own. It's never about making a real personal connection with the object of desire, it's strictly about the status the guy achieves by "bagging" the women who represents the cultural standard of desirability.

Nearly all of them, if they took the time to drop the attitude, stopped looking at women as mere status symbols, and made the effort to tidy themselves up a bit, would find that there are quite a few women that would be perfectly happy to have sex with them, and who they could have a real emotional and personal connection with, but who don't quite measure up to the cultural ideals of desirability any more than the guys do.

I used to have something of that attitude myself when I was younger and dumber, that sense of "otherness" regarding women. Lots of people my age did; as I noted, it's very much a cultural thing. But I was fortunate enough to have friends around me, both female and male, who were able to metaphorically slap some sense into me, and help me understand just how stupid I was being. I eventually grew up, and found that if I treated women as people like myself, and took the time to connect with them as people, as a real friend not as a "nice guy", and didn't make sex the defining characteristic of our interactions, then yes some of them were actually attracted to me and would be happy to have sex with me. Including a few who cultural standards would have defined as "way out of my league". Most of whom I'm still friends with.

Unfortunately, with the Internet around today, it's much easier for such people to avoid that kind of sensible advice, to find and sequester themselves in echo chambers that feed their bad attitudes, exacerbate and reinforce them, until they become, in the worst cases, full-blown violent misogynists taking their "revenge" on the women they believe have "wronged" them.
I'm going to recommend this article to those who use the term "nice guys"
and frame them as "feeling entitled"

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31...e-romanceless/
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Old 5th October 2018, 11:15 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'm going to recommend this article to those who use the term "nice guys"
and frame them as "feeling entitled"

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31...e-romanceless/

I have to say that that's the biggest collection of of self-serving, out-of-context, false-equivalency trash that I've seen posted here in a very long time. It would take an entirely new thread to go over everything that's wrong with it.

About 10% of what he says is reasonably accurate, and the rest is just a whole bunch of BS justification for whinging and entitlement attitude that directly contradict the few good bits.
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Old 5th October 2018, 11:43 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'm going to recommend this article to those who use the term "nice guys"
and frame them as "feeling entitled"

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31...e-romanceless/
Quote:
You keep whining about how “unfair” it is that you can’t get a good job. “But I’m such a hard worker.” No, actual hard workers don’t feel like they’re entitled to other people’s money just because they ask nicely.

“Why do rich white kids who got legacy admissions to Yale receive cushy sinecures, but I have to work two grueling minimum wage jobs just to keep a roof over my head?” By even asking that question, you prove that you think of bosses as giant bags of money, rather than as individual human beings who are allowed to make their own choices. No one “owes” you money just because you say you “work hard”, and by complaining about this you’re proving you’re not really a hard worker at all. I’ve seen a lot of Hard Workers (TM) like you, and scratch their entitled surface and you find someone who thinks just because they punched a time card once everyone needs to bow down and worship them.

If you complain about “rich white kids who get legacy admissions to Yale,” you’re raising a huge red flag that you’re the kind of person who steals from their employer, and companies are exactly right to give you a wide berth.
This is the worst analogy I've ever seen, for any subject in any debate whatsoever. "Bosses" aren't personal relationships; they typically represent an organization and the decisions they make regarding things like pay aren't arbitrary, but likely based on company policies. And finally, they're not paying you their own money. In fact that money typically doesn't belong to any one person at all. Aside from the individual person's wanting something and not getting it, there's nothing similar between these situations.

It's just a bad analogy. The fact is, money is a currency, it is supposed to be given in trade for goods or services like labor; employment agreements are established with the explicit goal of getting money in exchange for effort and both sides are aware of this from the outset. There are a whole number of circumstances when someone CAN BE or IS entitled to money, and to be upset when that entitlement is not realized. But even when that entitlement isn't objectively supported, at least the money that's not given still exists somewhere as something the individual can feel is being deliberately or arbitrarily withheld from them.

By contrast there is never a situation in which someone is entitled to their chosen interest's affection. Affection and sexual attraction isn't a commodity; it's an emotional response in a person's brain. It exists or it doesn't. It's illogical for a person to feel entitled to it, as if it's something their target has a stockpile of and could give if they really wanted to and is just deciding not to for whatever unfair reason. And even if it was, the analogy of affection given to a target that hasn't agreed to an affectionate or sexual relationship as "work done that deserves to be compensated" still fails because even in a world where work in exchange for money is the universally-understood norm, nobody would agree that a person can, without permission, give some random dude's car a new paint job they didn't ask for and then demand payment from them.
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Old 5th October 2018, 11:50 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
By contrast there is never a situation in which someone is entitled to their chosen interest's affection.
I don't know, paying for drinks all night... just saying.
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Old 5th October 2018, 12:05 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I can't believe there is even debate here. They had multiple articles attacking feminism. That makes them MRA's and no one will change my mind on that.


Edited by kmortis:  removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0
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Old 5th October 2018, 02:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't know, paying for drinks all night... just saying.
So how much do you spend when you expect a certain amount of affection?

But seriously, I find something weird about MRAs. I've seen them in the wild and spoke with them. Hell, I've discovered friends and relatives who identity as one. Usually, he will start with stuff that is pretty agreeable. Courts are messed up and put more restrictions on men with custody, hit them with child support more often. Higher suicide rates among men and rising rates among older men.

But, the thing is, a lot of these problems actually come from the very same gender roles and societal expectations that feminists are fighting against. Yet, the MRA usually ends up insulting and blaming feminists within a few minutes of the conversation. And I don't even mention them. And its not long until race comes up.

and yes, that anecdotal. But, the stuff I see on the internet reads like these guys if they weren't worried about seeming polite. A strong scent of All Lives Matter.

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Old 5th October 2018, 02:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
So how much do you spend when you expect a certain amount of affection?
I think anything beyond three, or two if it's cocktails. Then it's a sliding scale. Throw in a meal and I'd expect all eventualities to be up for grabs. Except when it's a guy, of course. My mate often 'forgets his wallet' and I'll stand him a few rounds, but I certainly wouldn't want to touch him down there.
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Old 5th October 2018, 05:22 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
But, the thing is, a lot of these problems actually come from the very same gender roles and societal expectations that feminists are fighting against. Yet, the MRA usually ends up insulting and blaming feminists within a few minutes of the conversation.
Yes, very much so.

Another example I encounter on occasion is the aftermath of sexual abuse of young boys, and even adults, by female perpetrators. Although the incidence is much lower than male-on-female abuse, even so it is often underreported, and the female abusers very often suffer much less in terms of legal or social consequences for their actions compared to male abusers. "Manospherans" try to spin this as the result of some kind of feminist-imposed idea that men can only be abusers, not victims of sexual misbehavior - or at least, can't be "victims" as much as females can. In truth, they are correct about the symptom, but wrong about the cause: it's not a feminist idea and it was not imposed on our culture by feminists, or by women generally. After a news story about an adult female teacher who sexually abused say a 12-year-old boy, you WILL certainly hear people around the water cooler declaring that they don't consider the boy a "real victim" and even how he probably enjoyed and wanted what was done to him....but those people will not be feminists, and I don't mean in a "no-true-scotsman" way.
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Old 5th October 2018, 06:04 PM   #103
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It's also a common joke that feminists would be perfectly fine with Men Going Their Own Way, except they refuse to Go Their Own Way.

(THis could easily just be that actual MGTOWs aren't noticed, since they, y'know, went.)
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Old 5th October 2018, 06:58 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
After a news story about an adult female teacher who sexually abused say a 12-year-old boy, you WILL certainly hear people around the water cooler declaring that they don't consider the boy a "real victim" and even how he probably enjoyed and wanted what was done to him....but those people will not be feminists, and I don't mean in a "no-true-scotsman" way.

Plenty of examples of that on this board, in fact. Pretty much anytime I've ever heard comments like that, that the boy was "lucky" (but only when the older women is conventionally attractive) and not really a victim, it's always been from other men, usually along with comments about how they would have loved to have been in his shoes at his age. Perpetuating the cultural stereotype of men as inherently sexual predators.

In all my years here I've only heard one woman outright deny the existence or trauma of female-on-male rape, and she was already a bit... unstable would be the polite way to put it.
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Old 5th October 2018, 07:04 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Plenty of examples of that on this board, in fact. Pretty much anytime I've ever heard comments like that, that the boy was "lucky" (but only when the older women is conventionally attractive) and not really a victim, it's always been from other men, usually along with comments about how they would have loved to have been in his shoes at his age. Perpetuating the cultural stereotype of men as inherently sexual predators.

In all my years here I've only heard one woman outright deny the existence or trauma of female-on-male rape, and she was already a bit... unstable would be the polite way to put it.
You might want to post links to all the blokes on here saying "that the boy was "lucky" (but only when the older women is conventionally attractive) and not really a victim", because if there have been I haven't seen them.

Or is this just your interpretation
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Old 9th October 2018, 12:58 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Anti-feminist does not mean misogynist.
I know. I'm criticizing the company she keeps.

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'm not familiar with what you're talking about for Crouch.
It's on the wiki-page of his organization.
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Old 9th October 2018, 05:05 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, I think in general people finding other people who have the same problems and can sympathise with them isn't such a bad thing, though if it lets them wallow in their problems and not do anything to improve then it certainly is. But sometimes it's nice to just have someone else who understands your issues to talk to.

I remember what it was like to be the awkward kid in highschool that girls just weren't interested in, and I can't really fault some guys who are going through that wanting to have people to talk to who can understand them.
Even simply knowing that other people like you exist can be a huge deal. A lot of incels assumed they were the only ones like that for a long time, which is very isolating.

Quote:
When that becomes blaming women for that problem, rather than looking at themselves and trying to understand how to improve themselves, then I do have an issue with it
Absolutely. Which is why it's so sad that those who do that are now the official face of the whole thing in most people's minds. There are plenty of incel men who think women are great and whose greatest wish is to hang out with them, but they're ignored because that doesn't make for headlines.

Hell, for that matter there are plenty of incel women who are now more or less completely invisible to the public eye because they can't be put into the "potentially murderous woman hater" box.

Funny, you'd think the incel men and incel women would find a way to pair off. Except it doesn't really work that way. Pity.
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Old 9th October 2018, 06:22 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Even simply knowing that other people like you exist can be a huge deal. A lot of incels assumed they were the only ones like that for a long time, which is very isolating.


Absolutely. Which is why it's so sad that those who do that are now the official face of the whole thing in most people's minds. There are plenty of incel men who think women are great and whose greatest wish is to hang out with them, but they're ignored because that doesn't make for headlines.

Hell, for that matter there are plenty of incel women who are now more or less completely invisible to the public eye because they can't be put into the "potentially murderous woman hater" box.

Funny, you'd think the incel men and incel women would find a way to pair off. Except it doesn't really work that way. Pity.
Are there really people outside the "incel-movement" who refer to themselves as "incels"? During dry-spells I wouldn't call myself an "incel".
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Old 9th October 2018, 07:50 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post


Edited by kmortis:  removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0
Are you serious? This is the best response you can come up with?

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Old 9th October 2018, 08:07 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Jontg View Post
Are you serious? This is the best response you can come up with?
Did Travis' post merit much of a response?
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Old 9th October 2018, 08:09 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are there really people outside the "incel-movement" who refer to themselves as "incels"? During dry-spells I wouldn't call myself an "incel".
Absolutely. I'm also a pacifist between wars and a vegetarian between meals.
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Old 9th October 2018, 08:19 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Did Travis' post merit much of a response?
No post merits a response that stupid and misogynistic. Did somebody hand out Chick tracts here while I was away?
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Old 9th October 2018, 08:21 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You might want to post links to all the blokes on here saying "that the boy was "lucky" (but only when the older women is conventionally attractive) and not really a victim", because if there have been I haven't seen them.

Or is this just your interpretation
Here's a couple.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...30&postcount=5

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8&postcount=14
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Old 9th October 2018, 09:10 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Jontg View Post
This is the best response you can come up with?
No. But it’s the best response his post deserves.
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Old 9th October 2018, 09:19 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Jontg View Post
No post merits a response that stupid and misogynistic.


Are you serious?

Quote:
Did somebody hand out Chick tracts here while I was away?
You tell me. You’re the one making sanctimonious accusations of sinful behavior and beliefs.

“Reeee muhsogyny, how dare he insult strong wimmin “

Don’t like people making fun of your beliefs? Stop believing stupid ****.
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Old 9th October 2018, 02:45 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
An "Involuntarily celibate" is simply somebody who doesn't have sex because they can't find anybody who's willing to have sex with them.

The whole "...and therefore I hate women" thing is a pretty recent addition to the mix. A lot of incels hate it because the group has never been particularly well known and then suddenly they are, but the only thing anybody talks about is how they're all a bunch of dangerous hate-filled lunatics. Which at least some of them aren't at all.
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Even simply knowing that other people like you exist can be a huge deal. A lot of incels assumed they were the only ones like that for a long time, which is very isolating.


Absolutely. Which is why it's so sad that those who do that are now the official face of the whole thing in most people's minds. There are plenty of incel men who think women are great and whose greatest wish is to hang out with them, but they're ignored because that doesn't make for headlines.

Hell, for that matter there are plenty of incel women who are now more or less completely invisible to the public eye because they can't be put into the "potentially murderous woman hater" box.

Funny, you'd think the incel men and incel women would find a way to pair off. Except it doesn't really work that way. Pity.
Maybe they have fractured "communities", but what you are describing does not match what I found when I did a deep dive into their territory. There is a huge, massive, gargantuan difference between a person who is single, lonely, or even socially isolated and an incel. It's an ideology and an identity, not a passive social situation.

Incidentally, most I've seen would deny that a female incel could even exist.
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Old 9th October 2018, 04:08 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There were forums for suicidal people where posters were encouraged to take their own lives by other posters. Sort of a group-hug centered death cult. I don't think all the posters were women, but that's the closest I can think of to the kind of destructive crap we see on incel forums.
Anorexia forums.
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Old 9th October 2018, 06:57 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Jontg View Post
No post merits a response that stupid and misogynistic. Did somebody hand out Chick tracts here while I was away?
It's weird that I'm defending that post because I don't particularly like it as a response, given that it attacks motives instead of content. But I'm having a hard time seeing misogyny there. Can you spell that out for me?
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:21 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post


Edited by kmortis:  removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0

Edited by kmortis:  removed previously moderated content and response
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:34 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Edited by kmortis:  removed previously moderated content and response
Edited by kmortis:  removed previously moderated content and response
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