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#121 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,129
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The difference between incel and pro-ana groups is that the former are clearly working from a position of entitlement and sexism, and are prone to violence; while the latter are working from a position of mental illness and often personal trauma as well, and are self-destructive. |
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"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon |
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#122 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,853
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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#123 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,703
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#124 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,711
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It's actually a topic of debate amongst them as to how long/how fully one has to go without to be considered an incel. If your "dry spell" is a few weeks, probably not. But what if it's a few years? A decade?
Of course the extreme cases are those who have never had any sexual contact at all. And yes, one can live that way all one's life and still never feel inclined to murder women. Or even dislike them. |
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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#125 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,711
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I imagine nothing I could say would every change your mind on this, but it is a factual error on your part.
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But as I say, I don't imagine I could possibly change your mind. So I won't try. |
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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#126 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,711
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It may well be so, now. I couldn't say. The point I made was that it didn't used to be that way; fifteen years ago you could go to an incel forum (if you could find one; they were rare as hell) and you'd rarely if ever find all this hatred and misogyny. Just unhappy people wishing they knew how to do relationships.
I think it's sad that the haters have moved in. Sadder still that the haters are what people now think an incel is, by definition. Sad enough to be one without having most people think you're some sort of horrid hate-filled violent nutcase because of it.
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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#127 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,261
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Its quite amazing to see how much bigotry is expressed by those people who virtue signal to be complaining about bigotry
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Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it |
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#128 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,391
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain |
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#129 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,703
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#130 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,260
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I know you didn't mean to, but the way you wrote that implies that it's more or less equally common to live one's life that way and feel inclined to murder women. I would say that wanting to murder women because someone can't get someone to have sex with them is ****** up and a sign of mental illness.
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#131 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,703
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#132 |
Scholar
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 96
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#133 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,838
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Indeed. Some incels bristle at the implication that maybe it's something about their attitude or personality that pushes potential mates away. Some of them insist this can't possibly true because they "do everything right", open doors for women, are unfailingly polite all the time, and so forth. But their posts drip with rage and entitlement; and they refuse to understand that people can often see these things bubbling beneath the surface in their day-to-day interactions, no matter how many doors they open.
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#134 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,129
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I think it goes deeper than that, into their fundamental view of women, which does not portray them as people, but as prizes to be won, or prey to be hunted (although the latter view is stronger in the PUA worldview). There is always that separation, that distance, that inability to understand. This is very much a cultural thing, particularly in Anglo-American culture, and there is a lot of pop-psychology that pushes that view, but the incel mindset take it to extremes that veer into objectification and misogyny. |
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"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon |
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#135 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,023
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Honestly this is just what happens when all the "Nice Guys" grow up and turn bitter.
It's the same mentality, just with outright bitterness replacing the passive aggressiveness. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#136 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,395
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I think a lot of them face an uphill battle in terms of looks, social status, money and social skills.
But the Elliot Roger case was interesting because he was conventionally good looking, came from money and should have been seen as 'a catch'. He probably had some qualities or social problems that precluded him winning the ladies over, and I think that fact that he 'checked all the boxes' but wasn't successful, fed his anger. Most incels would probably kill to be a thin, angel-faced, BMW driving trust fund-kiddie with a closet full of Armani. I guess Kim Dotcom has better social skills, considering who he manages to date. |
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Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh! |
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#137 |
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,129
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Some of them are, not just Elliot Roger. The problem is, that they do not have the social skills and worldview necessary to engage with someone on an intimate personal level. When you already have a profoundly sexist or misogynist worldview, and serious attitude problems, all the money and good looks aren't going to help much. And that's the problem with the overwhelming majority of incels, their attitudes are enough to put off most of the sorts of people they want to be involved with, even if they don't have the presentation problems. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of incels and similar sorts who describe themselves as "nice guys" are little better than passive-aggressive jerks who see women as sex vending machines. They're rarely if ever interested in friendship with women as a desirable end in itself, but only as a means to getting sex. I've also seen that a number of the "good catch" incel types do have women interested in them, but their demands on the sort of women they want to be involve with range from ridiculous to outright misogynistic. They are typically looking for a passive, subservient sort of woman who caters exclusively to their whims, and does not impose her own personal needs and desires on the "relationship". They're looking for someone who is more of a servant than an equal partner, and women who demand equality in a relationship are dismissed and derided as "feminazis", "ball-busters", and/or "high-maintenance", among other considerably less polite terms. |
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"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon |
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#138 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,869
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Sorry I forgot to respond/acknowledge some comments.
I agree that that analogy is very poor, in fact I think it's by fat the worst part of the article. I don't agree with it. That said, I think the rest of the article is valid and well-stated. The over-arching point is that we keep labeling people as "entitled" and "sexist" when a better descriptor of their feelings are: "I am better than X crappy person, but X crappy person keeps getting affection even by those who he abuses... why can't I do at least as well as X does in terms of relationships?" This is framed as entitlement. Desiring intimacy and expressing sadness or jealousy over scummy people doing better is framed as hatred or entitlement. I don't think this is an accurate descriptor of most people in this camp, not do I think it's particularly helpful. Sadness + loneliness -> more sadness and loneliness, and blaming people for what isn't necessarily their fault or easily fixable isn't helpful and is probably counter-productive |
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#139 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,869
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I know feminists like to deny this, but feminists engage in plenty of traditionalism as well -> towards men.
Men are still expecting to throw away or sacrifice their lives for women, and to place women on top. Feminists demand this as well, even if not all of them do. Part of how they do this is through things like affirmative action. A much more significant way that they do this is they frame (nearly) all issues as "male perpetrated, with primarily female victims" then claim to be fighting patriarchy and thus helping men. Even issues where females are equal or greater in perpetration or equal or lesser in terms of number of victims, the problem is still framed as "patriarchy" which is just one step removed from blaming all men for all of societies problems (which mostly affect women). The duluth model is one of the strongest examples. See INTERNATIONAL organizations like White Ribbon, or the UN for framing violence against women as a unique problem that needs addressing (while completely erasing male victims and female perpetrators). The US government does this as well as many others ("council on women and girls", www.womenshealth.gov vs www.menshealth.gov , etc. ) For example, any time I see someone mention how afraid women are of walking alone at night, I point out that they are safer on average than men, especially from strangers. ie men make up the majority of victims of violence in general, especially life-threatening violence. What is the typical feminist response to this? I'll let you think about it for a moment. |
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#140 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,086
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Lack of social skills is by far the largest obstacle for these types, generally speaking. Incels like the frame world as being very polar, made up of those that can effortlessly interact with women and have easy access to sex and relationships and those doomed to perpetual rejection. This is on its face absurd of course as ordinary people of varying wealth, attractiveness, charisma, and all other qualities manage to have normal and happy relationships. They ignore the vast majority of the dating pool: average people who have to put in the hard social work of finding someone and cultivating a romantic relationship.
I would speculate that many of these incel types have trouble forming non-romantic relationships as well. They lack the general social skills required to interact and form friendships with others. This lack of social skill is a severe barrier to interacting successfully with others and forming both romantic and non-romantic relationships. Pick up artist "techniques" are popular because they are ready made templates for social interaction that don't require much social skill to follow. Simply disregard the resounding disgust that such superficial and insulting approaches engender until you find some emotionally vulnerable woman that can be badgered and bluffed into dispensing sex. Rather than acknowledge that they lack social skills and work to improve that, they decide that society is the problem. |
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#141 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,571
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#142 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,023
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The internet has been trying various ways to turn "Doesn't have social skills" into a virtue across multiple topics for a while now.
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#143 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,571
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To be entirely fair, those without social skills (nerds and the like) have been on the receiving end for a good while, so it's not surprising that they'd try to flip things around, now that they are more empowered or able to connect to each other.
Personally I never had any delusions about my own social difficulties. They're entirely on me, though I've managed to make friends in the real world anyway. Also the wife. |
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#144 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,395
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Some helpful types on incel forums have suggested Incels (I really wish we could expand terminology to separate the toxic guys from the lonely guys) hire a sex worker to get over their shyness, learn to interact and get the sex-starvation out of their system.
Then actual sex workers interjected and politely asked not to send these guys their way. They are not the most pleasant of clientele, apparently. When you can't pay people to hang out with you, it's time to ask yourself some serious friggin' questions. |
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Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh! |
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#145 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,571
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#146 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,086
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I think that most incels would realize, after visiting a prostitute, that sexual release did little to improve their quality of life. Their inability to interact with women, or other people generally, in an emotionally fulfilling way would still exist. Incel insistence that sexual frustration is the soul source of woe in their lives is dubious. Being socially and emotionally underdeveloped likely negatively affects most aspects of their lives.
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#147 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,395
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That realisation would be worth the price of admission, I think. Having someone help you empty your gland is not the life-changing rite of passage that pop culture has made it out to be. Losing one's virginity has become an overvalued idea. You become more of a 'man' by doing rewarding things in your community. I mean, sex is great. But I think these guys need to put it in its proper perspective. Important, but not all consuming. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh! |
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#148 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,711
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It was more a comment on how that does seem to be the common perception of incel people now; that hating women is inherent to the entire group, with violence thrown in.
I’ve no idea how common misogyny is amongst incels. Maybe it’s very common. But nothing about being an incel means that you automatically must hate women. Claiming that they must is no different to the “all black people are criminals” or “all muslims are terrorists” mindset.
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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#149 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,023
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Is there anything being discussed here beyond categorization of what is an "incel?"
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#150 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,571
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#151 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,869
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This thread fell apart when the OP said their mind couldn't be changed, and no one cares about that website.
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#152 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,838
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Except that people merely feeling sad about being romantically unfulfilled and wishing they could have better luck someday isn't what is meant by "nice guys", and never has been; and one of the most frustrating things about that article is that the author steadfastly maintains this false equivalence even while quoting other pieces that have pointed out the distinction.
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#153 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,711
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Except that to plenty of people it actually does mean exactly that. The people who believe that "nice guy" means "horrible ******* with a huge sense of entitlement" don't get to have sole ownership of the words, or to dictate to everyone else what they mean.
To some people a cigar is just a cigar. To some people a nice guy is just a guy who is nice. |
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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#154 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,838
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Okay I should specify: as used by people who actively complain about insufferable "nice guys", the term does not refer to people who are merely sad about being romantically unfulfilled and wish they could have better luck some day. Yes, there are other contexts in which the term means different things; for instance when your grandmother refers to her neighbor as a "nice guy", she probably is using a face-value definition.
But that is not the context in which the op-ed I am criticizing was using it, so I don't understand the point of this objection aside from a semantic haggle. |
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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