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Old 10th October 2018, 09:53 AM   #1
luchog
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Supreme Court Upholds Voter Suppression Efforts

The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota

North Dakota implemented onerous Voter ID laws in an attempt to reduce voting by minorities and poor people, and have so far been successful in court challenges to it. Among other things, it disenfranchises huge numbers of Native peoples.

Excerpt:

Quote:
In her dissent, Ginsburg highlighted that 70,000 North Dakota residents, which constitutes nearly 20% of the turnout “in a regular quadrennial election—lack a qualifying ID” under the the law’s provisions. Another 18,000 residents “lack supplemental documentation sufficient to permit them to vote without a qualifying ID.”

Expect to see a whole lot more voter suppression efforts from the GOP, and a whole lot more court challenges to those efforts being denied by the Supreme Court.
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Old 10th October 2018, 09:55 AM   #2
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Why don't every adult get ID in the US?
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Old 10th October 2018, 09:59 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why don't every adult get ID in the US?
BECAUSE BABY JEEZUS SAYS THEY ARE THE MARK OF THE BEAST! GET BEHIND ME SATAN!

*The sad part is how little of that is a joke.*
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:09 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
BECAUSE BABY JEEZUS SAYS THEY ARE THE MARK OF THE BEAST! GET BEHIND ME SATAN!

*The sad part is how little of that is a joke.*
That is exactly it. Weird, but true (except not Jesus, it was the writer of one book of the gospel that all the millenialists take a shine to).
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:12 AM   #5
River
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota

North Dakota implemented onerous Voter ID laws in an attempt to reduce voting by minorities and poor people, and have so far been successful in court challenges to it. Among other things, it disenfranchises huge numbers of Native peoples.

Excerpt:




Expect to see a whole lot more voter suppression efforts from the GOP, and a whole lot more court challenges to those efforts being denied by the Supreme Court.

Are you suggesting poor people and minorities don't have ID? Why is it harder for those groups specifically? (sounds racist to me)
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why don't every adult get ID in the US?
There are a lot of conspiracy theories regarding any proposal for a Federal ID, or even federal standards for state-issued IDs.

Plus, some states really want to limit who can vote - in some states a concealed weapons permit is valid ID to vote, but a student ID from a state-run University is not.

The issue in ND relates to street addresses - in many cities, homeless people face the same issue. They may have mailboxes, but no address. Which is great, if you don't want homeless people to be able to vote.

Elderly people who don't drive any more, or other people who don't drive often let their driver's licenses expire. They don't always realize that most states offer ID cards for non-drivers. Then again, these ID cards can be hard to get if the closest office is 50 miles away and you have no car, or it is only open during normal office hours and you don't have the sort of job that allows you to take time off to go there, or you were born at home to parents who didn't get you a proper birth certificate, and so on. Or perhaps your birth certificate and ID were destroyed in a fire, and you are still working through the process of getting replacements. Your marital status changed, and some of your paperwork still has your married name, but some has your maiden name, or maybe you want to revert to your maiden name....

We talk as if voting is a right, but treat it as if voting is a privilege.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:15 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Are you suggesting poor people and minorities don't have ID? Why is it harder for those groups specifically? (sounds racist to me)
Or you could read the article:

Quote:
The law requires that North Dakota residents provide identification that includes a residential street address in order to vote. But the state is home to thousands of Native Americans and others who do not have standard addresses, which the challengers argued would effectively disenfranchise them.
My understanding from other reporting is that many Native Americans have IDs with PO boxes.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:17 AM   #8
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Yes, those sly GOP'ers, suppressing only poor and minority voters in that bastion of liberalism known as North Dakota. Obtaining an ID in North Dakota must be expensive! I guess you must be white and rich to get one. Wait, the ID cards are free. If one can make it to their polling location to vote, then they can make it to the DMV.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:22 AM   #9
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And the irony is that by fighting so hard against a national ID we've forced that have to keep track of people, because you know it's 2018 and you have to do that sort of thing to exist, are forced to use things which were never meant to be used as National IDs.

That's how the Social Security Number became our defacto national ID number despite that being a really, really bad idea.

Long story short the Social Security Number was, originally, only given to working adults and only supposed to be used to keep track of their Social Security contributions. And as such it was never meant to be used for personal identifications (because it's a damn piece of printed cardboard with zero identifying information on it) or used for tracking for other purposes. So it has zero built in security. Most ID numbers have some degree of randomness and error correction built into them so you can't just guess a valid one. But not the SS#. The first three digits are based on a publicly available chart that follows state of birth, the middle go in a specific pattern, and the last four just count up numerically. So you take my social security number, add or subtract 1 from the last digit and that's the valid SS# for somebody most likely born in my hometown on the same day as me.

So the most important card and number in my life less security then my Library Card or Xbox Gamertag.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:23 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
If one can make it to their polling location to vote, then they can make it to the DMV.
And then, under the new restrictions that were just upheld, the DMV will refuse to issue them an ID, if they don't have a proper street address, as is common on reservations and with homeless people.

Read the article. That's what the court case just decided.

They can get to the DMV, but can't get a DL, or any other ID accepted for voting.

Quote:
The law requires that North Dakota residents provide identification that includes a residential street address in order to vote. But the state is home to thousands of Native Americans and others who do not have standard addresses, which the challengers argued would effectively disenfranchise them.
They were allowed to use existing standards to vote in the primaries, but the new standards will not allow them to vote in the general election. Even with the state issued ID's they already have, even if those ID's have not expired. Once expired, they will not be able to get new ones. As much as 20% of the state's population will lose the right to vote under the new rules.


And they wonder why we think the GOP is not actually supportive of democracy....

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Old 10th October 2018, 10:28 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Wait, the ID cards are free.
Free to people whit a formal street name/address, which does nothing for people living on a reservation where these don’t exist.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:32 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post



They were allowed to use existing standards to vote in the primaries, but the new standards will not allow them to vote in the general election. Even with the state issued ID's they already have, even if those ID's have not expired. Once expired, they will not be able to get new ones. As much as 20% of the state's population will lose the right to vote under the new rules.


And they wonder why we think the GOP is not actually supportive of democracy....
Exactly. If you don’t live in a house with a formal street name/number you no longer have the right to vote in North Dakota because the way the law is written no ID without such an address is acceptable.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:38 AM   #13
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But, but...this will help control all those millions of illegal voters Trump claims voted in 2016.

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Old 10th October 2018, 10:48 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Are you suggesting poor people and minorities don't have ID? Why is it harder for those groups specifically? (sounds racist to me)
Attentiveness to detail is not among your (presumed) outstanding qualities. (See Dr. Keith's comment above.) But on the other hand, you've got knee-jerking down pat, foisted consistently through a right wing lens.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:57 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Are you suggesting poor people and minorities don't have ID? Why is it harder for those groups specifically? (sounds racist to me)
it's a statistical fact - that the GOP is trying to exploit.
Making an effort to make sure everyone has ID before you stop them from voting is what a party that believes in Democracy would do.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:28 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Yes, those sly GOP'ers, suppressing only poor and minority voters in that bastion of liberalism known as North Dakota. Obtaining an ID in North Dakota must be expensive! I guess you must be white and rich to get one. Wait, the ID cards are free. If one can make it to their polling location to vote, then they can make it to the DMV.
It would have taken you less time to just read the article. Not the whole thing, mind you, just down to paragraph 3.

But thanks for not contributing to the discussion. That was good, too.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:36 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Attentiveness to detail is not among your (presumed) outstanding qualities. (See Dr. Keith's comment above.) But on the other hand, you've got knee-jerking down pat, foisted consistently through a right wing lens.
LOL!
Are all these activities that require ID also racist? Or just voting? Those reservations must have a hard time doing a lot of other things if you insist they cannot obtain ID due to their ethnicity. (ridiculous, as is the argument voter id is somehow racist)

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Old 10th October 2018, 11:38 AM   #18
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Plenty of items on the list can be racist, given certain circumstances.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:38 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by River View Post
LOL!
Are all these activities that require ID also racist? Or just voting? Those reservations must have a hard time doing a lot of other things if you insist they cannot obtain ID due to their ethnicity. (ridiculous, as is the argument voter id is somehow racist)

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
Maybe you could come up with a meme listicle that covered the need of a photo ID that has a physical address, since that is what the actual case is about.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:41 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Maybe you could come up with a meme listicle that covered the need of a photo ID that has a physical address, since that is what the actual case is about.
I guess receiving mail would be pretty difficult for someone like that too. Mail must be racist.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:48 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by River View Post
I guess receiving mail would be pretty difficult for someone like that too. Mail must be racist.
No . A place to get your mail is what a PO Box is.

What are you on about?
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by River View Post
I guess receiving mail would be pretty difficult for someone like that too. Mail must be racist.
What do you think 'P.O.' stands for, River?
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:53 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What do you think 'P.O.' stands for, River?
So how are the people on the reservation supposed to do any of these activities due to them not being able to obtain ID? (according to some democrats) These activities requiring ID are racist! (insert gagging sound here) Ridiculous.

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Old 10th October 2018, 11:55 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by River View Post
LOL!
Are all these activities that require ID also racist? Or just voting? Those reservations must have a hard time doing a lot of other things if you insist they cannot obtain ID due to their ethnicity. (ridiculous, as is the argument voter id is somehow racist)

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
You could either discuss the particular case, or, if you prefer posting questionable at best lists of things one "needs photo ID" to do (many of which you don't - "Buy an M rated game") you could just go Google for any number of sites that discuss the many issues with vote suppression, which includes but is not at all limited to ID-related nonsense.

Now then:

I've seen a few people forwarding info on alternative ways to get ID, or for people who live on reservations or who are homeless, to vote. The bigger problem is shifting the rules between primary and general elections, which means that there's relatively little time to actually get that sort of information out there.. ANd of course, they'll just change the rules next time around anyway to find some other way to suppress voting.

I mean, normally I'd suggest that the GOP just try to appeal to nonwhite voters instead, but after the last election, I'd say that ship's sailed for the foreseeable future.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why don't every adult get ID in the US?

That's addressed in the article; but one of the issues is that a lot of people don't meet the requirements for state-issued IDs, and many voter ID laws have identification requirements above and beyond

For starters, homeless people are among the first to be disenfranchised by voter ID laws due to the requirement for a residential address.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:56 AM   #26
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You don't need a drivers license to ride a horse, pale face.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:56 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by River View Post
So how are the people on the reservation supposed to do any of these activities due to them not being able to obtain ID? (according to some democrats) These activities requiring ID are racist! (insert gagging sound here) Ridiculous.
The PO box allows you to get mail, but it is NOT a standard address and may result in ID being denied to you. Why is that so hard to understand?

Perhaps if you based your opinions on fact rather than partisan and reactionary, knee-jerk feelings, you'd get somewhere.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:58 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That's addressed in the article; but one of the issues is that a lot of people don't meet the requirements for state-issued IDs, and many voter ID laws have identification requirements above and beyond

For starters, homeless people are among the first to be disenfranchised by voter ID laws due to the requirement for a residential address.
Well, that's a stupid system. To the best of my knowledge every adult in Canada has some sort of government photo ID.
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Old 10th October 2018, 11:59 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The PO box allows you to get mail, but it is NOT a standard address and may result in ID being denied to you. Why is that so hard to understand?

Perhaps if you based your opinions on fact rather than partisan and reactionary, knee-jerk feelings, you'd get somewhere.
Right which is WHY I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?

Only voting? The ID didn't get easier to acquire for those other activities.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:02 PM   #30
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Yeah, why aren't those things generating so much of a furor, I wonder. It's almost like voting is some kind of Constitutional right, unlike buying an "M" rated video game.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:03 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's a stupid system. To the best of my knowledge every adult in Canada has some sort of government photo ID.
I have:

A Driver's License (Issued by the US State of Florida), a Military Retiree ID (Issued by the US Department of Defense), a Social Security Card (Issued by the United States Social Security Administration), and a US Passport (Issued by the US State Department) as primary IDs. None of them are an ID in every circumstance. Some are an ID when paired with another ID sometimes but not all the time. If my driver's license was issued by another state the rules might be all different because different states have different rules for issuing Driver's Licenses.

Those are just my primary things which sort of often are my ID and don't take into account my voter registration card, proof of residency, various state permits (fishing, concealed carry) and work IDs.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:03 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Right which is WHY I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?
Ask someone who said it's racist.

I think it's mostly about preventing people from voting Democrat.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Right which is WHY I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?

Only voting? The ID didn't get easier to acquire for those other activities.
Tell you what sport. Even ignoring "Voting is different because of course it bloody is why I'm explaining this to you..." when people in power start screwing around with the ID requirements trying to keep black people from buying video games or adopting pets I'll complain about that too.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by River View Post
So how are the people on the reservation supposed to do any of these activities due to them not being able to obtain ID? (according to some democrats) These activities requiring ID are racist! (insert gagging sound here) Ridiculous.

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
Back here in the real world, they can do many of those things with an ID issued by the Tribal Government - but they still can't vote. Also, you've got a number of things on that list which don't require ID. I don't recall ever showing an ID to adopt my puppy, or to get my fishing license, for example.

Quote:
I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?
When they make it harder for people who live on Reservations to get ID cards, then there is a racially disproportionate impact. In this case, it is not so much that it is racist to require ID, but that they have made it harder for one racial group to GET that ID.

The ND state government has made all of those other things much harder or even impossible for people who live on Reservations. For example, they may not be able to get state driver's licenses either - they state may have effectively banned residents of reservations from driving on state highways or off-reservation at all. The new law has a clear racially disproportionate impact on many facets of life.

So, are you defending laws that have disproportionate racial impacts?

Last edited by crescent; 10th October 2018 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:07 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by River View Post
So how are the people on the reservation supposed to do any of these activities due to them not being able to obtain ID? (according to some democrats) These activities requiring ID are racist! (insert gagging sound here) Ridiculous.

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
Which of those require an ID that doesn't have a PO BOX?

And I haven't read the whole list, but the first two are false. I buy alcohol all the time without presenting an ID. It's called being old. Jesus, the stupid hurts.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:08 PM   #36
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Right which is WHY I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?

Only voting? The ID didn't get easier to acquire for those other activities.
Well for the most part you don't have a right to do any of those other activities. Many are requirements by private businesses in order to conduct a transaction. I do not think I had to show a driver's license to buy my last house for example, I've gone into Sandia Casino and they didn't ask for ID... they could've and I could've left since I have no right to be there.

This law makes it a requirement to have a street address to vote. That disenfranchises people without street addresses.

Do you agree with the above statement? Yes___ No___
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yeah, why aren't those things generating so much of a furor, I wonder. It's almost like voting is some kind of Constitutional right, unlike buying an "M" rated video game.
Those groups are not required to live in an area that has no address. No one is in America.

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Do natives have to live on reservations?
No. American Indians and Alaska Natives live and work anywhere in the United States (and the world) just as other citizens do. Many leave their reservations, communities or villages for the same reasons as do other Americans who move to urban centers: to seek education and employment.
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Last edited by River; 10th October 2018 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:14 PM   #38
carlitos
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Quote:
Jesus, the stupid hurts.
Last time I applied for unemployment, it was all online. I don't know who I would have showed an ID to in that case - my cat?
Fishing license - sign the book on the counter at the tackle shop.
M video game / tobacco / alcohol / casino - give me a break; I'm in my 40's and don't get carded for any of those things.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:14 PM   #39
Belz...
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Those groups are not required to live in an area that has no address. No one is in America.
True, but then why not adjust the law to accomodate all of your voting-age citizens?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:14 PM   #40
River
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Well for the most part you don't have a right to do any of those other activities. Many are requirements by private businesses in order to conduct a transaction. I do not think I had to show a driver's license to buy my last house for example, I've gone into Sandia Casino and they didn't ask for ID... they could've and I could've left since I have no right to be there.

This law makes it a requirement to have a street address to vote. That disenfranchises people without street addresses.

Do you agree with the above statement? Yes___ No___
Sounds like a smart solution might be (wait for it) Declaring the reservations an address, and using it for those individuals that live there.
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