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Old 10th October 2018, 12:15 PM   #41
crescent
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Those groups are not required to live in an area that has no address. No one is in America.
So, by that reasoning, people who live on Reservations are not required to be allowed to vote.

Perhaps we could say that people who live in your county are not allowed to have ID, and cannot vote if they have no ID.

Sound good?

(Hint: It does not matter where you live - we all have the same rights.)
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:16 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
True, but then why not adjust the law to accomodate all of your voting-age citizens?
We need to be able to verify the vote. Voter ID is a GREAT thing for this country. Did 2016 not show anyone anything? Personally, I feel like we should declare the reservations their own address.

Secondly, we need to be able to check our votes after the polls close and verify our votes are still there. Authentication and verifiable results. Not electronic non verifiable ********.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Sounds like a smart solution might be (wait for it) Declaring the reservations an address, and using it for those individuals that live there.
You're absolutely right. Each individual could be assigned a number, a number that correlates to the box at the post office where they could receive mail.

Genius! Genius I say!
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:17 PM   #44
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Kudos

Originally Posted by River View Post
Sounds like a smart solution might be (wait for it) Declaring the reservations an address, and using it for those individuals that live there.
In which a guy on an internet forum solves the problem that went all the way to the Supreme Court after thinking about it for maybe 5 minutes.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Sounds like a smart solution might be (wait for it) Declaring the reservations an address, and using it for those individuals that live there.
If you had read the article, that seems to be the purview of the Postal Service.

Of, ND could have just done that itself, and exempted people on reservations from the requirement.

But they didn't - almost as if they decided that they didn't want people on Reservations to vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by River View Post
We need to be able to verify the vote. Voter ID is a GREAT thing for this country. Did 2016 not show anyone anything? Personally, I feel like we should declare the reservations their own address.

Secondly, we need to be able to check our votes after the polls close and verify our votes are still there. Authentication and verifiable results. Not electronic non verifiable ********.
So, you think the problem should be solved by other administrative means. In contrast, the SCOTUS just ruled it isn't a problem.

Now can you see why people are frustrated?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
So, by that reasoning, people who live on Reservations are not required to be allowed to vote.

Perhaps we could say that people who live in your county are not allowed to have ID, and cannot vote if they have no ID.

Sound good?

(Hint: It does not matter where you live - we all have the same rights.)
How about a homeless person? What's the difference? (no formal address)

If you want to vote, get an ID. If you want to do most of the things society does today, get an ID. If you want to disappear and live off the land, have at it.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by River View Post
How about a homeless person? What's the difference? (no formal address)
This just in - homeless people "want to disappear" -
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So, you think the problem should be solved by other administrative means. In contrast, the SCOTUS just ruled it isn't a problem.

Now can you see why people are frustrated?
Sure but it does not change the fact that voter ID should be required. Some adjustments need to be made, not only for those people on the reservations. However, requiring ID is NOT too much to ask for voting. We need it for practically every adult responsibility in this country. Including things that are our "rights" like second amendment rights. You dont see liberals saying we dont need ID to buy guns do you? No ID to drive? No ID to get loans?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:21 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by River View Post
We need to be able to verify the vote. Voter ID is a GREAT thing for this country.
Then why change the requirements so that an entire segment of the population can no longer get an ID?

They HAD ID cards, perfectly legal photo ID cards, totally traceable to each individual. Those ID cards showed post office boxes, tying each voter to one town, one county, no duplicate locations.

What was wrong with that?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:21 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by River View Post
We need to be able to verify the vote. Voter ID is a GREAT thing for this country. Did 2016 not show anyone anything? Personally, I feel like we should declare the reservations their own address.

Secondly, we need to be able to check our votes after the polls close and verify our votes are still there. Authentication and verifiable results. Not electronic non verifiable ********.
So that's an agreement, then?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Sure but it does not change the fact that voter ID should be required. Some adjustments need to be made, not only for those people on the reservations. However, requiring ID is NOT too much to ask for voting.
*Head desk* I...I.... I give up.

The "adjustments" are what we don't have and WHAT YOU'VE BEEN ARGUING AGAINST HAVING THIS WHOLE TIME

If a PO Box was enough to get an ID that would be allowed to vote with we... wouldn't... be... having... this... conversation.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Then why change the requirements so that an entire segment of the population can no longer get an ID?

They HAD ID cards, perfectly legal photo ID cards, totally traceable to each individual. Those ID cards showed post office boxes, tying each voter to one town, one county, no duplicate locations.

What was wrong with that?
Because you cannot go to a post office box and see the person. It's non verifiable. You can't use a post box address to get a bail bond either...
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Last edited by River; 10th October 2018 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by River View Post
How about a homeless person? What's the difference? (no formal address)

If you want to vote, get an ID. If you want to do most of the things society does today, get an ID. If you want to disappear and live off the land, have at it.
No difference at all. This disenfranchises homeless people as well.

The key is not about the ID - they had ID.

THEY ALREADY HAD ID.

They key is that they changed the law, so they can no longer get ID


Can you comprehend that?

I really think we'll just go ahead and change the rules so people in your county don't get IDs anymore. Your existing ID becomes invalid, you can't vote unless you move. Let's do that. You clearly support the concept.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by River View Post
LOL!
Are all these activities that require ID also racist? Or just voting? Those reservations must have a hard time doing a lot of other things if you insist they cannot obtain ID due to their ethnicity. (ridiculous, as is the argument voter id is somehow racist)
The OP doesn't mention race. The cited article doesn't mention race. Dr. Keith didn't mention race. I didn't mention race. You are the one injecting race into our exchange. You are playing the race card card.

Like I said about attentiveness...
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:26 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Because you cannot go to a post office box and see the person. It's non verifiable. You can't use a post office address to get a bail bond either...
A bond is different. If you fail to pay the bond, they need to be able to locate you.

Voting is different - it is still tied to an individual person in a specific voting area. The PO box is more than sufficient to establish that.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The OP doesn't mention race. The cited article doesn't mention race. Dr. Keith didn't mention race. I didn't mention race. You are the one injecting race into our exchange. You are playing the race card card.

Like I said about attentiveness...
The argument in the OP is about certain ethnic groups quote: "The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota"

Do you dispute this?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:28 PM   #58
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If an individual’s valid form of identification does not include the North Dakota residential address or date of birth, or the North Dakota residential address is not current, the individual may supplement the identification with a current utility bill; a current bank statement; a check or a document issued by a federal, state, local, or tribal government (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address); or a paycheck.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
A bond is different. If you fail to pay the bond, they need to be able to locate you.

Voting is different - it is still tied to an individual person in a specific voting area. The PO box is more than sufficient to establish that.
The whole concept of voter ID is to authenticate the vote is coming from a real person. Voter fraud is a problem in this country regardless of peoples belief that requiring ID to perform one of the most important tasks our country asks of its citizens and to verify it comes from a legitimate source is not too much to ask. It is the year 2018. Not 1418.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:29 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The argument in the OP is about certain ethnic groups quote: "The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota"

Do you dispute this?
Do YOU dispute it?

They didn't make it harder for ALL Native Americans to vote, but they certainly made it harder for a great many of them, perhaps the majority.

That's not in dispute, that's math.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:32 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The whole concept of voter ID is to authenticate the vote is coming from a real person. Voter fraud is a problem in this country regardless of peoples belief that requiring ID to perform one of the most important tasks our country asks of its citizens and to verify it comes from a legitimate source is not too much to ask. It is the year 2018. Not 1418.
Wrong, but okay.

That can still be verified with a PO box. A physical address is not required to verify who is who.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
If an individual’s valid form of identification does not include the North Dakota residential address or date of birth, or the North Dakota residential address is not current, the individual may supplement the identification with a current utility bill; a current bank statement; a check or a document issued by a federal, state, local, or tribal government (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address); or a paycheck.
We agree that it's an issue that needs to be addressed. However, this should not stop the law requiring voter ID. These people in need of a "home address" should be able to obtain one from the government after verifying where it is they actually live. (if it's in a tribal area, then identify that area and perhaps have gps coordinates if needed) The idea is one vote per one person verified. No non verifiable votes. I agree with that concept, and also agree those poeople should be able to obtain ID but not based on a PO box, based on where they actually live.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:33 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Wrong, but okay.

That can still be verified with a PO box. A physical address is not required to verify who is who.
No, where they actually live. Not a remote box. Identify it if needed by GPS. Verifiable.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:33 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The argument in the OP is about certain ethnic groups quote: "The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota"

Do you dispute this?
Of course I do not dispute that the voter suppression measure impacts people who lack a proper address due to living on a reservation, and that those people are Native Americans. That doesn't mean that GOP motivation is racist per se.

Regardless, nobody has called anyone racist. It is you and only you playing the race card card. Highly unimpressive.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:35 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Sure but it does not change the fact that voter ID should be required. Some adjustments need to be made, not only for those people on the reservations. However, requiring ID is NOT too much to ask for voting. We need it for practically every adult responsibility in this country. Including things that are our "rights" like second amendment rights. You dont see liberals saying we dont need ID to buy guns do you? No ID to drive? No ID to get loans?
I don't think you get it: the court just said no adjustments need to be made for those living on a reservation or homeless.

If their ID lists a PO Box they don't get to vote. They can still do everything else that requires an ID, but vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:35 PM   #66
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ETA: Added quote, thread moved fast.

Originally Posted by River View Post
No, where they actually live. Not a remote box. Identify it if needed by GPS. Verifiable.
Why? To what end and what purpose?

You're just hair splitting a bunch of distinctions without difference promising you're gonna drop your end of the rope after we acknowledge it.

American citizens get to vote. It's not "American citizens with a valid mailing address get to vote." No hair you split will make that not true.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Of course I do not dispute that the voter suppression measure impacts people who lack a proper address due to living on a reservation, and that those people are Native Americans. That doesn't mean that GOP motivation is racist per se.

Regardless, nobody has called anyone racist. It is you and only you playing the race card card. Highly unimpressive.

The list speaks for itself. Requiring voter ID is not racist.

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Old 10th October 2018, 12:37 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by River View Post
No, where they actually live. Not a remote box. Identify it if needed by GPS. Verifiable.
Non-verifiable. I know a whole lot of people who get mail at one address and live at another. Nonetheless, they can still only vote at one place, they still have an ID that identifies them and nobody else.

I know people who have no utility bills to show, because the utilities are not in their name.

I used to live in places that had no real address, the issue is direct to me.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by River View Post
I guess receiving mail would be pretty difficult for someone like that too. Mail must be racist.
Not at all. You see there is this thing called a post office were you can go to get your mail.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:37 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think you get it: the court just said no adjustments need to be made for those living on a reservation or homeless.

If their ID lists a PO Box they don't get to vote. They can still do everything else that requires an ID, but vote.
That is not accurate. In fact the part of the injunction that was not challenged:

Quote:
The court also found that 4,998 otherwise eligible Native Americans (and 64,618 non-Native voters) did not possess a qualifying identification. The court cited "statistical data" showing that 19% of Native Americans lacked qualifying identifications. And the court found that 48.7% of Native Americans who lack a qualifying identification also lacked "the supplemental documentation needed," such that 2,305 Native Americans would not be able to vote in 2018 under the North Dakota statute. To remedy these concerns about obtaining identification, the court ordered the Secretary to accept various documents issued by a tribal authority to a tribal member. The Secretary does not seek to stay these portions of the injunction.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:39 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Requiring voter ID is not racist.
Who said that it was, other than the idiot who made up the list you keep posting?
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
ETA: Added quote, thread moved fast.



Why? To what end and what purpose?

You're just hair splitting a bunch of distinctions without difference promising you're gonna drop your end of the rope after we acknowledge it.

American citizens get to vote. It's not "American citizens with a valid mailing address get to vote." No hair you split will make that not true.
That makes things verifiable. You can actually go to that address, and see there is a person there with that ID. Too much to ask? Too bad. Everyone else has to follow that. It's ridiculous that this has not been solved already by their local governments by creating addresses for the reservations. Ridiculous politics, and hurting some individuals. We agree on that point only.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:39 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's a stupid system. To the best of my knowledge every adult in Canada has some sort of government photo ID.
For the first few years of my adult life (up until late 20s) I didn't have a government photo ID.

I didn't travel internationally so I didn't have a passport. I didn't drive so I didn't have a driver's license. My health card at the time was an old-style Ontario red-and-white one (with no photo on it). Birth certificate and social insurance card similarly had no photo. And my university ID cards were way out of date (and being post graduation had the wrong address).

Even now, the only photo ID that might be mandatory is the new-style health card (and I'm not even sure if everyone has one). And that card doesn't have your address.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:40 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The list speaks for itself. Requiring voter ID is not racist.

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
WTF? Your impermeability is truly something to behold. EARTH TO RIVER: Nobody is mentioning race except you.

The list speaks for itself? I border on speechlessness.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:41 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
WTF? Your impermeability is truly something to behold. EARTH TO RIVER: Nobody is mentioning race except you.

The list speaks for itself? I border on speechlessness.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
For the first few years of my adult life (up until late 20s) I didn't have a government photo ID.

I didn't travel internationally so I didn't have a passport. I didn't drive so I didn't have a driver's license. My health card at the time was an old-style Ontario red-and-white one (with no photo on it). Birth certificate and social insurance card similarly had no photo. And my university ID cards were way out of date (and being post graduation had the wrong address).

Even now, the only photo ID that might be mandatory is the new-style health card (and I'm not even sure if everyone has one). And that card doesn't have your address.

Wrong. I was addressing the OP.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota

North Dakota implemented onerous Voter ID laws in an attempt to reduce voting by minorities and poor people, and have so far been successful in court challenges to it. Among other things, it disenfranchises huge numbers of Native peoples.

Excerpt:




Expect to see a whole lot more voter suppression efforts from the GOP, and a whole lot more court challenges to those efforts being denied by the Supreme Court.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:43 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by River View Post
That makes things verifiable. You can actually go to that address, and see there is a person there with that ID. Too much to ask? Too bad. Everyone else has to follow that.
No they don't and this is where you are wrong and refuse to even attempt to understand it.

There is NO, no, not a, none,value of zero, go back and read that over and over until you understand it, requirement to have a valid mailing address to vote. Do not argue this point. This is not a matter of perspective or opinion. This is a fact. Any addressing of this fact other than acceptance is wrong.

Most IDs just happen to have a home address on them because... that's a handy thing to have on an ID. But it is NOT (go back and read all the nots again if you need to) a requirement to vote. Period. End of discussion.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:44 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The list speaks for itself. Requiring voter ID is not racist.

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
Perhaps I am an imperfect liberal - but I don't believe it is inherently racist either.

What I do believe is that requiring voter ID has a racially and economical disproportionate impact.

Requiring ID, and then changing the rules to make it harder for certain groups to get that ID, when it is known that this will have a strongly racially disproportionate impact is absolutely racist.

Had they worked through all of the issues to proposed, had the state government made a big push to make sure all eligible voters could get the correct ID BEFORE changing the rules might have been on thing. That's not what they did.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:44 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Wrong. I was addressing the OP.
The OP's claims are, of course, wrong as the state has most certainly been so far been successful in court challenges to it. Among other things, it disenfranchises huge numbers of Native peoples."

see the actual ruling quoted above
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:44 PM   #79
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By the way not for nothing... a lot (maybe most) of military members only have a PO Box and not a street address. I never had a problem voting with one.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:47 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Yes, those sly GOP'ers, suppressing only poor and minority voters in that bastion of liberalism known as North Dakota. Obtaining an ID in North Dakota must be expensive! I guess you must be white and rich to get one. Wait, the ID cards are free. If one can make it to their polling location to vote, then they can make it to the DMV.
While an ID card may be from government expenses, there are secondary costs involved.... Time taken off work to visit your local government office (which may only be open during the days), transportation to and from the office. If you're a minimum wage lackey working 6 days a week (who doesn't have a driver's license because they can't afford a car anyways, or a passport because you don't travel), these expenses (in lost wages and transportation) can make obtaining your "free" voter ID card a hardship.

And of course this is even assuming you can get one (as others have pointed out, people without a fixed residence will have extra troubles getting ID.)
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