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Old 10th October 2018, 12:48 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Right which is WHY I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?
There s no similar law that applies to these activities. This law doesn't just require ID it prohibits some people from even getting suitable ID based on where they live.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:48 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Wrong. I was addressing the OP.
And again you quote fact as if it were opinion.

The law really does reduce voting by poor people and minorities - because many of those minorities (in that state) live on Reservations. The state may deny racial or political motivation - but the impact is still the impact, and it is racially disproportionate.

This is math, not opinion. That is what it does.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:50 PM   #83
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Folks, you know you can get an ID with PO BOX on it, right? If your ID has a PO Box on it, then you must show something else to show your residence.

I would ask how this got so far off the rails.... but I already know.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Folks, you know you can get an ID with PO BOX on it, right? If your ID has a PO Box on it, then you must show something else to show your residence.
You... don't.... need... a... residence... to... vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:58 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Those groups are not required to live in an area that has no address. No one is in America.
Sure. Just give them a choice: move off the reservation or give up the right to vote. No constitutional issue at all there.

Same thing with the homeless, I suppose. Either get a home or give up the right to vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 12:58 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
There s no similar law that applies to these activities. This law doesn't just require ID it prohibits some people from even getting suitable ID based on where they live.
what are you basing that on. i have read the actual law at issue and it does not say that
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:02 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The whole concept of voter ID is to authenticate the vote is coming from a real person. Voter fraud is a problem in this country...
No, it is not.

Despite claims from Trump (a man who is well known for his lies), voter fraud is exceptionally rare. The fact is, voter fraud (the type that ID laws are supposed to prevent) is both difficult to pull off and extremely ineffective. A single voter (even a group of voters) just wouldn't be able to effectively cast enough ballots under fake identities to alter an election result.

From: https://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/tr...-fraud-claims/
A December 2006 report by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission interviewed more than two dozen researchers and experts on voter fraud and intimidation.... That report concluded that “impersonation of voters is probably the least frequent type of fraud because it is the most likely type of fraud to be discovered, there are stiff penalties associated with this type of fraud, and it is an inefficient method of influencing an election.”
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:02 PM   #88
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"Do I need a mailing address to vote?"
"Oh absolutely not."
"Oh good. I want to vote."
"Well you need ID to vote."
"But I need a mailing address to get ID."
"Yep."
"And I need ID to vote."
"Yep"
"And you're saying I don't need a mailing address to vote?"
"Yep."
"But it's that just functionally saying I have to have a mailing address to vote?"
"Yep. But we're handing it behind pedantics! It's the American way."
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You... don't.... need... a... residence... to... vote.
You....must.... reside....in... North... Dakota... to.... vote... in... north... dakota....
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:04 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The list speaks for itself. Requiring voter ID is not racist.
Do you not understand that voting is a right, and that targetting minorities in order to make it very difficult for them to exercise that right could be reasonably seen as racist?
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
For the first few years of my adult life (up until late 20s) I didn't have a government photo ID.

I didn't travel internationally so I didn't have a passport. I didn't drive so I didn't have a driver's license. My health card at the time was an old-style Ontario red-and-white one (with no photo on it). Birth certificate and social insurance card similarly had no photo. And my university ID cards were way out of date (and being post graduation had the wrong address).

Even now, the only photo ID that might be mandatory is the new-style health card (and I'm not even sure if everyone has one). And that card doesn't have your address.
Humm.. so how'd you vote?
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:07 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Voter fraud is a problem in this country.
No it's not stop lying.

Voting Fraud keeps getting investigated and... we keep really not finding much over and over.

- Loyola Law School looked at over a billion (billion with a b) votes cast over 14 year period and found... 31 credible cases of voter impersonation, and some of those might have been clerical errors.

- A five year vote fraud investigation by the George W. Bush administration (you know that liberal thinktank) turned up "virtually no evidence" of organized fraud. 86 convictions for various forms of voter fraud did come about due to this investigation and again many of these appear to be clerical errors.

- A 2014 two year investigation to voting in Iowa yielded only 27 credible cases and yet again tended more toward clerical errors.

- The Washington Post found an average of 4 documented cases of voter fraud out of 136 million votes cast.

- Dartmouth found no evidence of voter fraud in the 2016 election.

- The Secretary of State for the State of Kansas reviewed 84 million votes and found 14 cases.

- In 2011 Wisconsin charged 20 felons with falsifying voting records in an attempt to vote.

So yeah the reoccurring theme, from Republican, Democrat, Academic, and Press investigations all seem to agree that if you look at millions upon millions of votes you might find.... a few cases, most of which are clerical errors.

The brown people are not cheating to out vote you. I promise.

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.29b76663dc89
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:10 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Sounds like a smart solution might be (wait for it) Declaring the reservations an address, and using it for those individuals that live there.
“I live somewhere in this 100sq mile area” isn’t exactly a useful address. If ND was willing to accept something so broad, then sure it’d be a solution. Of course they do not accept this as an address because the whole point is that they don’t want to allow these people to vote.
Originally Posted by River View Post
We need to be able to verify the vote.
Then do something useful like getting rid of electronic voting machines.
Originally Posted by River View Post
Secondly, we need to be able to check our votes after the polls close and verify our votes are still there.
So eliminate anonymous voting in an already failing democracy. Sounds wonderful.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
“I live somewhere in this 100sq mile area” isn’t exactly a useful address. If ND was willing to accept something so broad, then sure it’d be a solution. Of course they do not accept this as an address because the whole point is that they don’t want to allow these people to vote.

Then do something useful like getting rid of electronic voting machines.


So eliminate anonymous voting in an already failing democracy. Sounds wonderful.
To remedy these concerns about obtaining identification, the court ordered the Secretary to accept various documents issued by a tribal authority to a tribal member. The Secretary does not seek to stay these portions of the injunction.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:15 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by River View Post
How about a homeless person? What's the difference? (no formal address)

If you want to vote, get an ID.
AGAIN. The law we are discussing you cannot get a valid ID without a formal address. So “get an ID isn’t an option” you do not qualify for any ID that would allow you to vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:19 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
AGAIN. The law we are discussing you cannot get a valid ID without a formal address. So “get an ID isn’t an option” you do not qualify for any ID that would allow you to vote.
this is not what the law says, at all.

here is the law

https://codes.findlaw.com/nd/title-1...1-01-04-1.html
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:28 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
No, it is not.

Despite claims from Trump (a man who is well known for his lies), voter fraud is exceptionally rare. The fact is, voter fraud (the type that ID laws are supposed to prevent) is both difficult to pull off and extremely ineffective. A single voter (even a group of voters) just wouldn't be able to effectively cast enough ballots under fake identities to alter an election result.

From: https://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/tr...-fraud-claims/
A December 2006 report by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission interviewed more than two dozen researchers and experts on voter fraud and intimidation.... That report concluded that “impersonation of voters is probably the least frequent type of fraud because it is the most likely type of fraud to be discovered, there are stiff penalties associated with this type of fraud, and it is an inefficient method of influencing an election.”
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No it's not stop lying.

Voting Fraud keeps getting investigated and... we keep really not finding much over and over.

- Loyola Law School looked at over a billion (billion with a b) votes cast over 14 year period and found... 31 credible cases of voter impersonation, and some of those might have been clerical errors.

- A five year vote fraud investigation by the George W. Bush administration (you know that liberal thinktank) turned up "virtually no evidence" of organized fraud. 86 convictions for various forms of voter fraud did come about due to this investigation and again many of these appear to be clerical errors.

- A 2014 two year investigation to voting in Iowa yielded only 27 credible cases and yet again tended more toward clerical errors.

- The Washington Post found an average of 4 documented cases of voter fraud out of 136 million votes cast.

- Dartmouth found no evidence of voter fraud in the 2016 election.

- The Secretary of State for the State of Kansas reviewed 84 million votes and found 14 cases.

- In 2011 Wisconsin charged 20 felons with falsifying voting records in an attempt to vote.

So yeah the reoccurring theme, from Republican, Democrat, Academic, and Press investigations all seem to agree that if you look at millions upon millions of votes you might find.... a few cases, most of which are clerical errors.

The brown people are not cheating to out vote you. I promise.

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.29b76663dc89


Keep telling yourself its not a problem.

ballots.jpg
https://ktla.com/2016/11/03/possible...ans-apartment/

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ectoral-fraud/

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...htmlstory.html
What are the 11 counties being mentioned?
Imperial County (102 percent)
Lassen County (102 percent)
Los Angeles County (112 percent)
Monterey County (104 percent)
San Diego County (138 percent)
San Francisco County (114 percent)
San Mateo County (111 percent)
Santa Cruz County (109 percent)
Solano County (111 percent)
Stanislaus County (102 percent)
Yolo County (110 percent)
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:32 PM   #98
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Voter Registration Errors =/= Voter Fraud
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:35 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Voter Registration Errors =/= Voter Fraud
North Dakota does not have pre-election voter registration
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:38 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You....must.... reside....in... North... Dakota... to.... vote... in... north... dakota....
Absolutely. Sounds reasonable.

How about homeless people?
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:50 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Keep telling yourself its not a problem.

Attachment 39072
https://ktla.com/2016/11/03/possible...ans-apartment/

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ectoral-fraud/

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...htmlstory.html
What are the 11 counties being mentioned?
Imperial County (102 percent)
Lassen County (102 percent)
Los Angeles County (112 percent)
Monterey County (104 percent)
San Diego County (138 percent)
San Francisco County (114 percent)
San Mateo County (111 percent)
Santa Cruz County (109 percent)
Solano County (111 percent)
Stanislaus County (102 percent)
Yolo County (110 percent)
lol, you got Alex Jones on your side.

Next time read the article, and supporting articles, and learn what it means.

The editorial posted was opinion at best and tone/implications did not reflect the facts. IBD? lol, a far right not always factual source.
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Old 10th October 2018, 01:59 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by River View Post
So a bunch of mail-in ballots were delivered to the woman. Tell me, how exactly is requiring voter ID at a polling station supposed to curtail that?

Quote:
So, more registered voters than people alive... A claim that is easily debunked.

This is likely a combination of bad methodology used by the people making the claim, combined with a time lag for updating voter records (in the case of people moving and/or dying).

From: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us...s-than-adults/
The consideration of inactive voters is a key issue here. Judicial Watch maintains that registrations listed on state rolls as “inactive” are “vulnerable to abuse”... However, California’s National Voter Registration Act (NVRA) regulations state that although inactive voters remain on the rolls as registered voters who are eligible to vote, they do not receive “mailed election materials” (including mail-in ballots) and must “confirm residency at the polling place” in person in order to vote... such figures produced by the likes of Judicial Watch and PILF fail to account for things such as active military members or students attending university away from their home jurisdictions that may affect figures and numbers in different ways...

So no, voter fraud is not a problem.
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Old 10th October 2018, 02:34 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So no, voter fraud is not a problem.
I don't remember the organization (Heritage Foundation, or someone like that) had a database of documented cases of voter fraud. Many if not most of those incidents involved local elections where a few votes could make a difference in selecting a justice of the peace or council person. For some reason there were quite a few in Kentucky. There was also some study which one of the researchers essentially disowned because sweeping generalizations were being made with a very small sample size based on poor methodology.

It took an hour or so to dig to the bottom of the issue and maybe I'd be able to find that post. Bottom line, there was no nationwide voter fraud going on at anywhere near a statistically significant level. That won't stop people from asserting that it's a problem.

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Old 10th October 2018, 02:46 PM   #104
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If the ID ensures fewer people vote Democrat, then what's the problem?
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Old 10th October 2018, 02:51 PM   #105
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Kind of harsh. In the UK all you need is your National Insurance number to vote. (which are given out automatically to everyone) And even if you don't know yours a plan can be made.

There are specific forms for homeless, or people without fixed residences, including travellers (gypsies if you like), people who live on boats etc.

You can arrange to collect voting related post from the voting office.

You can also arrange a proxy or postal vote if unable to get to a polling station.

You can also elect to vote anonymously, if you have a decent reason.

We don't seem to have any significant problems with fraudulent noting.

No ID needed - I just walk into the polling station, give them my name, gets ticked off the electoral register and you're good to go.

Sample form

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-and-Wales.pdf
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Old 10th October 2018, 02:54 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Right which is WHY I'm asking why these other activities aren't considered racist for requiring ID?

Because they accept IDs that do not have formal street addresses. ND voting law no longer accepts IDs that do not have formal street addresses. How is that you are failing to understand this?

Quote:
Only voting? The ID didn't get easier to acquire for those other activities.

Voting is a constitutional right, the others aren't. How is it that you are failing to understand this?
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Old 10th October 2018, 02:59 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by River View Post
That makes things verifiable. You can actually go to that address, and see there is a person there with that ID. Too much to ask? Too bad. Everyone else has to follow that. It's ridiculous that this has not been solved already by their local governments by creating addresses for the reservations. Ridiculous politics, and hurting some individuals. We agree on that point only.

But apparently it's still fine to prohibit homeless people from voting.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:00 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Humm.. so how'd you vote?
I stole someone else's identity.

(Just kidding)

Actually i used the voter registration card that was mailed to me. That seemed to be enough

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Old 10th October 2018, 03:02 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Kind of harsh. In the UK all you need is your National Insurance number to vote. (which are given out automatically to everyone) And even if you don't know yours a plan can be made.

There are specific forms for homeless, or people without fixed residences, including travellers (gypsies if you like), people who live on boats etc.

You can arrange to collect voting related post from the voting office.

You can also arrange a proxy or postal vote if unable to get to a polling station.

You can also elect to vote anonymously, if you have a decent reason.

We don't seem to have any significant problems with fraudulent noting.

No ID needed - I just walk into the polling station, give them my name, gets ticked off the electoral register and you're good to go.

Sample form

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-and-Wales.pdf
That's madness. How do you keep your brown people from voting?
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:08 PM   #110
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Kind of harsh. In the UK all you need is your National Insurance number to vote. (which are given out automatically to everyone) And even if you don't know yours a plan can be made.

There are specific forms for homeless, or people without fixed residences, including travellers (gypsies if you like), people who live on boats etc.

You can arrange to collect voting related post from the voting office.

You can also arrange a proxy or postal vote if unable to get to a polling station.

You can also elect to vote anonymously, if you have a decent reason.

We don't seem to have any significant problems with fraudulent noting.

No ID needed - I just walk into the polling station, give them my name, gets ticked off the electoral register and you're good to go.

Sample form

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-and-Wales.pdf
Clearly, y'all don't have millions of people committing voter fraud, as we do in the US.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:32 PM   #111
plague311
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
North Dakota does not have pre-election voter registration
FTFY

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Folks, you know you can get an ID with PO BOX on it, right? If your ID has a PO Box on it, then you must show something else to show your residence.

I would ask how this got so far off the rails.... but I already know.
How the **** are they going to get mail that shows an address if they don't have a physical ******* address? I would ask how this was difficult to understand...but I already know.

North Dakota has scan codes on the back that they use on every ID that comes through the door. There is no registration, there is nothing like that, you just walk in with an ID, they almost never make eye contact with it, scan the bar code and you vote.

The Native American population is getting boned here in the worst way. I get why the GOP'ers on this forum want to downplay that, but if you want I'll give you my name on Facebook. You can gladly show up and explain to everyone that if they'd just use their tribal documentation (that has no address on it) then they should be good to go.

By the way, I know you've got me on ignore, but if you could link me to the specific pieces of tribal paperwork that are accepted and have addresses on it, that would be great.

ETA: Posted this from the vote.nd website, so I found it myself:

Quote:
Tribal government issued identification (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address)
The rumor around ND is that the polling locations haven't been accepting them. There also hasn't been a legitimate reason why they don't have specific polling places on tribal land to assist with this.
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Last edited by plague311; 10th October 2018 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:41 PM   #112
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Where do people get the idea that people who live on Indian reservations don't have addresses? As an aside, tribal ID cards are an acceptable form of ID.


This is a really instructive case for this moment, when so much attention is being paid to the Supreme Court. The question before the court is not whether the law in question is a good law or a bad law, but whether the law violates either the US Constitution or some applicable and valid federal law. Having an ID to vote has already been upheld by the federal courts, as has voter registration, so what is it about North Dakota's specific law that would make it unconstitutional or a violation of federal law?



ETA: I've only skimmed the rest of the thread, so apologies if these issues have been addressed.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 10th October 2018 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:42 PM   #113
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Regarding the race card card...
Originally Posted by River View Post
Wrong. I was addressing the OP.
I assume you're aware of the 5 W's of journalism. Well damn, the press will need to get creative on two of those W's in order to report the facts while avoiding the race card card.

Who? Native Americans various citizens

Where? Reservation 500 hectare tract in northeast corner of state
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:44 PM   #114
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's madness. How do you keep your brown people from voting?
It's a blue form?
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:47 PM   #115
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Bottom line, there was no nationwide voter fraud going on at anywhere near a statistically significant level. That won't stop people from asserting that it's a problem.
Or Donny.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:59 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
FTFY



How the **** are they going to get mail that shows an address if they don't have a physical ******* address? I would ask how this was difficult to understand...but I already know.

North Dakota has scan codes on the back that they use on every ID that comes through the door. There is no registration, there is nothing like that, you just walk in with an ID, they almost never make eye contact with it, scan the bar code and you vote.

The Native American population is getting boned here in the worst way. I get why the GOP'ers on this forum want to downplay that, but if you want I'll give you my name on Facebook. You can gladly show up and explain to everyone that if they'd just use their tribal documentation (that has no address on it) then they should be good to go.

By the way, I know you've got me on ignore, but if you could link me to the specific pieces of tribal paperwork that are accepted and have addresses on it, that would be great.

ETA: Posted this from the vote.nd website, so I found it myself:



The rumor around ND is that the polling locations haven't been accepting them. There also hasn't been a legitimate reason why they don't have specific polling places on tribal land to assist with this.
For TBD's benefit, just in case Plague is correct.
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Old 10th October 2018, 04:02 PM   #117
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Where do people get the idea that people who live on Indian reservations don't have addresses? As an aside, tribal ID cards are an acceptable form of ID.
<snip>
ETA: I've only skimmed the rest of the thread, so apologies if these issues have been addressed.
It's only three ******* pages.
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Old 10th October 2018, 04:12 PM   #118
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Oh, and for the disingenuous people who pretend not to understand how this could possibly be voter suppression: We know that it's voter suppression because the change in law doesn't address any real problem. It's pointless, cumbersome extra regulation, something Republicans are supposed to be against.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:09 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If the ID ensures fewer people vote Democrat, then what's the problem?
The problem is that well-crafted ID laws could make voter fraud impossible, and then Republicans won't be able to justify blaming their losses on undetected voter fraud.

So it is essential that any voter ID legislation be flawed, ensuring that liberals try to block it. Then people will believe the libs did block it and voter fraud is still possible. So long as there is a perception that voter fraud is still possible (and therefore a problem) it's all good!

Originally Posted by Babbylonian
the change in law doesn't address any real problem. It's pointless, cumbersome extra regulation, something Republicans are supposed to be against.
The real problem is that some liberals are still able to vote - so not at all pointless.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:19 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
BECAUSE BABY JEEZUS SAYS THEY ARE THE MARK OF THE BEAST! GET BEHIND ME SATAN!

*The sad part is how little of that is a joke.*
If that were true we'd have less to worry about, those would be the rural white folks and other alt-right white folk that hate the government.

If you don't drive a car it's much less likely you have a driver's license. If you were born at home or not in a hospital you may lack a birth certificate. Both of those groups are more likely to be minorities and the elderly poor. Those are the voters the GOP wants to suppress.
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