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Old 10th October 2018, 05:20 PM   #121
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Are you suggesting poor people and minorities don't have ID? Why is it harder for those groups specifically? (sounds racist to me)
Oh for pity's sake.

Do you lack access to common knowledge?
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:23 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Yes, those sly GOP'ers, suppressing only poor and minority voters in that bastion of liberalism known as North Dakota. Obtaining an ID in North Dakota must be expensive! I guess you must be white and rich to get one. Wait, the ID cards are free. If one can make it to their polling location to vote, then they can make it to the DMV.
This is sad. This is the second uninformed post about the problem of voter suppression. It's as if a whole group of folks don't want to know what the issues are.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:27 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Free to people whit a formal street name/address, which does nothing for people living on a reservation where these don’t exist.
... and a birth certificate that isn't free, and transportation and time off work to get to a DMV to get said free ID.

North Dakota, nothing like purposefully targeting Senator Heidi Heitkamp, a Democrat in a red state.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:33 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Plenty of items on the list can be racist, given certain circumstances.
Plenty of people who lack voter ID do not have any of those things on that bigoted stereotyped list. At least 3/4 of those items whoever made that padded it with do not require photo ID.

But if you insist on implying people on food stamps shouldn't vote, you don't need picture ID to get food stamps, you do need an address, for which providing mail addressed to you is sufficient ID.

The voter fraud myth has been thoroughly debunked. How convenient to ignore that fact.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:50 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Sounds like a smart solution might be (wait for it) Declaring the reservations an address, and using it for those individuals that live there.
The GOP is quite happy with the status quo, thanks.
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Old 10th October 2018, 05:53 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake.

Do you lack access to common knowledge?
Politics has devolved into lazy point-scoring rhetoric and pasted memes.
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Old 10th October 2018, 06:08 PM   #127
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Finger print ID is the way to go. And if it tkaes too long to check if the same person voted twice in realtime, then the duplication could be discounted after voting has finished as a batch counting process.

You could have officials drive into areas like reservations with a mobile handheld fingerprint voting machine.
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Old 10th October 2018, 06:40 PM   #128
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FedEx and UPS won't deliver to PO boxes. So how is it them First Immigrants get their Ebay purchases? Is Ebay Racist too? I didn't see Ebay on the list upthread.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:04 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
FedEx and UPS won't deliver to PO boxes. So how is it them First Immigrants get their Ebay purchases? Is Ebay Racist too? I didn't see Ebay on the list upthread.
Two ways:

They get packages delivered to addresses like "Second house on the left, cowbird path", or "John Doe residence, cowbird path", or they just list the address of the place with the P.O. box.

I used to do it the latter way. Packages got delivered to the address of the post office where my P.O. box was. Other people got packages delivered to their employer's address, or to friends who had more normal addresses.

Utilities: They probably only have electricity and data, both coming from tribal government owned utilities that work with non-standard addresses. They get water from drilled wells with submersible pumps and use septic tanks (just like my parents currently do). Heat and cooking off propane tanks; they may even pay the propane company with cash or check at delivery (my parents also use propane, but just pay an averaged monthly bill).

Odd that the Republican Party, which generally does better in rural areas, seems oblivious to how people in very rural areas live.

Last edited by crescent; 10th October 2018 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:23 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota

North Dakota implemented onerous Voter ID laws in an attempt to reduce voting by minorities and poor people, and have so far been successful in court challenges to it. Among other things, it disenfranchises huge numbers of Native peoples.

Excerpt:




Expect to see a whole lot more voter suppression efforts from the GOP, and a whole lot more court challenges to those efforts being denied by the Supreme Court.
Do you have a link to the law itself? I'm curious what it actually says. That Fortune article pretends to link to it, but actually links to some other article entirely.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:26 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you have a link to the law itself? I'm curious what it actually says. That Fortune article pretends to link to it, but actually links to some other article entirely.
https://vip.sos.nd.gov/idrequirements.aspx

It's not the law, as such, but it is the ND government web site that explains the ID requirements.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:28 PM   #132
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I linked to the law already.

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Old 10th October 2018, 07:28 PM   #133
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If they don't have ID in 2018 it's their own fault. Don't blame anyone else. We cannot allow people to vote if they can't prove they are who they say they are. This is only common sense. Because all of the other numbers and other claims I've looked into over the years have not been true at all, I'm sure Ginsburg's numbers are deceptive at some level, and intentionally so, just like all of those numbers that lying Hillary used to throw around. I've actually never seen the left produce a single person who couldn't vote solely because of the voter ID requirement. I find that puzzling, considering they can get a hundred people to run up and down the street and scream at the sky at the drop of a hat.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:32 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I linked to the law already.

Sorry, I must have missed it. Thanks for that.
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Old 10th October 2018, 07:48 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
If they don't have ID in 2018 it's their own fault. Don't blame anyone else. We cannot allow people to vote if they can't prove they are who they say they are. This is only common sense. Because all of the other numbers and other claims I've looked into over the years have not been true at all, I'm sure Ginsburg's numbers are deceptive at some level, and intentionally so, just like all of those numbers that lying Hillary used to throw around. I've actually never seen the left produce a single person who couldn't vote solely because of the voter ID requirement. I find that puzzling, considering they can get a hundred people to run up and down the street and scream at the sky at the drop of a hat.


Well if you haven’t seen it and you find it puzzling, I guess that there is nothing more to say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_fallacy
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:00 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
If they don't have ID in 2018 it's their own fault. Don't blame anyone else. We cannot allow people to vote if they can't prove they are who they say they are.
......

First, the issue isn't ID. The issue is a narrow definition of acceptable ID. An expired driver's license is excluded, even though it is the only ID you need to get a new driver's license, and even though some elderly people who no longer drive use their last license as ID. Passports are not acceptable ID because they don't include a home address. College IDs and work IDs are usually not acceptable.

At the same time that they imposed restrictions, many states cut back on the locations and hours of the DMV offices that issue acceptable IDs. In North Carolina, the courts held that their new voter ID laws were drafted specifically to target blacks.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/30/u...provision.html

There would be no real problem with requiring voter IDs if they were widely available and free, and if supporting documents like birth certificates were also free. If the state drove mobile units around to nursing homes, hospitals and shopping malls, operating say from 6 a.m. to midnight, it would be easier to say everybody has a chance to get an ID. But that's not the way it works now.

Second, people present ID or a sworn statement when they register to vote. Their names are then added to the voter rolls. When someone shows up on election day to vote, he gives his name and the clerk checks it off the list. There is no evidence at all that anybody is pretending to be somebody else to vote, or that anybody has shown up and been told that somebody else voted in his name.

In fact, there is no evidence at all of any massive or even minor voter fraud, unless the Repubs just think it's a fraud when the majority of Americans vote against them.

Voting is a basic right of citizenship, not a privilege to be awarded on a whim. It's up to the state to prove that someone is not entitled to vote, not the other way around.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:09 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because they accept IDs that do not have formal street addresses. ND voting law no longer accepts IDs that do not have formal street addresses. How is that you are failing to understand this?




Voting is a constitutional right, the others aren't. How is it that you are failing to understand this?
How about 2nd amendment rights? Do you think we should require ID for that?

Look, we mostly agree here. I think those people should have access to the right ID. If they indeed live in state, and live in that reservation -- the state needs to designate addresses to those individuals. Seems like a fail on the state level. It does not change my opinion on if ID should be required or not. It's ridiculous that this hasn't been addressed.

Also ridiculous that the USA has a non verifiable voting system. (after you vote) So people can check their vote to make sure its correct after the fact. I think that should be important. It's more important than "secret" votes IMHO or anonymous voting. So what if the state knows or Fed government knows who you voted for? If you don't want them to know, don't vote.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:16 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake.

Do you lack access to common knowledge?
It's sad that people like to use this as a ploy against minorities. I think it's insulting to insinuate minorities are incapable of obtaining ID any differently than the majority. People without addresses can be of any race. If there happens to be more people that fit that category at reservations, so be it. It is not planned to discriminate against people. It's planned to authenticate our voting system.

If you can't be bothered to get ID, or have trouble getting it in 2018 there is a problem. The problem isn't requiring it to vote. In this case it seems like a state fail.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:35 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Also ridiculous that the USA has a non verifiable voting system. (after you vote) So people can check their vote to make sure its correct after the fact. I think that should be important. It's more important than "secret" votes IMHO or anonymous voting. So what if the state knows or Fed government knows who you voted for? If you don't want them to know, don't vote.


No, No, No, No, No and furthermore Hell No!

Anonymous votes are an essential part of the voting system. It's been this way for a long time and for a damn good reason.

Your vote is YOUR vote and noone elses. If the vote you cast is anonymous then it is not susceptible to intimidation, vote buying, blackmailing etc.

You want to vote in a system where it's many many times easier to buy votes?
In case you hadn't noticed the stakes are REALLY high when electing governments and Trillions (with a T) of dollars are at stake for big companies that stand to gain/lose government contracts.

(This is the fundamental reason why electronic voting is a non-starter, there is no good way to ensure the votes are verifiable and also anonymous.)

Also re the hilighted, you should, in a healthy democracy, (which incase you miss my point here I am implying that the USA is not) do everything in your power to get as many people possible to vote.

Passing dumb voter ID laws that disproportionately affect the votes of your opponents is really, really stupid. On multiple levels.

The way we vote has evolved over several centuries now to be as close as we can get to unhackable and impervious to voter fraud. Yes there will always be *some* voter fraud, but it's statistically meaningless.

Removing one of the foundations of this system would be utter madness.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Also ridiculous that the USA has a non verifiable voting system. (after you vote) So people can check their vote to make sure its correct after the fact. I think that should be important. It's more important than "secret" votes IMHO or anonymous voting. So what if the state knows or Fed government knows who you voted for? If you don't want them to know, don't vote.
Nope. (See Ambrosia's post)
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:51 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by River View Post
So how are the people on the reservation supposed to do any of these activities due to them not being able to obtain ID? (according to some democrats) These activities requiring ID are racist! (insert gagging sound here) Ridiculous.

https://i.imgur.com/xFFoknt.jpg
Because if you actually READ the article, or if you thought about it for more than two microseconds (instead of having a knee jerk-off reaction and posting the first thing that popped into your head) you would realise that the type of ID you need for those other things might not be valid for being enrolled for VOTING! Not all IDs are equal!!

I can do almost anything with just a driver's licence or a passport as ID, but do you know what I can't do with just either or both of those? Answer - Get a Library Card.

That's right, the local library not only requires TWO forms of photographic ID, they also require a utility bill or a franked envelope, sent to my home address, with my name on it to prove that I live there!!
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:54 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
First, the issue isn't ID. The issue is a narrow definition of acceptable ID. An expired driver's license is excluded, even though it is the only ID you need to get a new driver's license,
Are you sure about that? Here's what the law says (copied and pasted from the web link provided by TBD)

Quote:
. a. A valid form of identification is:
(1) A driver's license or nondriver's identification card issued by the North Dakota department of transportation;  or
Nothing in the law says it has to be current. It just has to be issued by ND DOT.

To me, that would be a game changer, if a current ID were required. Requiring a non-expired license would strongly suggest an unreasonable requirement that seems deliberately intended to disenfranchise, which would indeed be a constitutional issue.


As it is, assuming there's no requirement that the ID be up to date, it seems pretty reasonable, and not something the courts ought to overturn.
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Old 10th October 2018, 09:15 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because if you actually READ the article, or if you thought about it for more than two microseconds (instead of having a knee jerk-off reaction and posting the first thing that popped into your head) you would realise that the type of ID you need for those other things might not be valid for being enrolled for VOTING! Not all IDs are equal!!

I can do almost anything with just a driver's licence or a passport as ID, but do you know what I can't do with just either or both of those? Answer - Get a Library Card.

That's right, the local library not only requires TWO forms of photographic ID, they also require a utility bill or a franked envelope, sent to my home address, with my name on it to prove that I live there!!

Here, I'll help since you think I was replying to what the article said. I was replying to what the OP said... Not the content of the article.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The Supreme Court Just Made It Harder for Native Americans to Vote in North Dakota

North Dakota implemented onerous Voter ID laws in an attempt to reduce voting by minorities and poor people, and have so far been successful in court challenges to it. Among other things, it disenfranchises huge numbers of Native peoples.

Excerpt:




Expect to see a whole lot more voter suppression efforts from the GOP, and a whole lot more court challenges to those efforts being denied by the Supreme Court.

I know plenty of poor people and minorities. All of them have ID... and I find that sort of rhetoric to be insulting.
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Old 10th October 2018, 09:28 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Are you sure about that? Here's what the law says (copied and pasted from the web link provided by TBD)

Nothing in the law says it has to be current. It just has to be issued by ND DOT.

To me, that would be a game changer, if a current ID were required. Requiring a non-expired license would strongly suggest an unreasonable requirement that seems deliberately intended to disenfranchise, which would indeed be a constitutional issue.
I don't know specifically about North Dakota. I know that some states do require a valid state-issued ID. If your license expired the day before the election, you don't get to vote. (Of course, a strict constructionist might argue that if the expired license can't be used to drive, it's not really a driver's license anymore.)

Here's a guide to the widely varying state requirements. Note that some are listed as specifically requiring a valid license.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/electio.../voter-id.aspx
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Old 10th October 2018, 09:29 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by River View Post
We need to be able to verify the vote. Voter ID is a GREAT thing for this country. Did 2016 not show anyone anything? Personally, I feel like we should declare the reservations their own address.

Secondly, we need to be able to check our votes after the polls close and verify our votes are still there. Authentication and verifiable results. Not electronic non verifiable ********.
Oh yeah, great thing. Because there is so much fraud no one can find more than a handful of illegal votes.

Voter ID will help us verify our votes are still there????? Good ******* gawd. Your post suggests you have no clue how 2016 election was tampered with.
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Old 10th October 2018, 09:45 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by River View Post
It's sad that people like to use this as a ploy against minorities. I think it's insulting to insinuate minorities are incapable of obtaining ID any differently than the majority. People without addresses can be of any race. If there happens to be more people that fit that category at reservations, so be it. It is not planned to discriminate against people. It's planned to authenticate our voting system.

If you can't be bothered to get ID, or have trouble getting it in 2018 there is a problem. The problem isn't requiring it to vote. In this case it seems like a state fail.
This post is a joke. We're not stupid.

Gaslighting is what the alt-white fall for, the rest of us have a clue.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:41 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Those groups are not required to live in an area that has no address. No one is in America.
Well, white people do have a long and proud history of forcing Native Americans off their land. This one sounds like a winner.
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:57 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't know specifically about North Dakota. I know that some states do require a valid state-issued ID. If your license expired the day before the election, you don't get to vote. (Of course, a strict constructionist might argue that if the expired license can't be used to drive, it's not really a driver's license anymore.)

Here's a guide to the widely varying state requirements. Note that some are listed as specifically requiring a valid license.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/electio.../voter-id.aspx
I suppose it depends on the interpretation by election officials. A license that is expired is still "valid" for identification purposes, or at least it should be treated a such because there is nothing about it that makes it unsuitable for that purpose. In North Dakota, the informational web site says a "valid" driver's license, but doesn't define the term. The statute itself says an ID issued by the state DoT, which would include expired licenses.
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Old 11th October 2018, 05:14 AM   #149
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The thread title keeps bugging me. According to the article, the Supreme Court hasn't upheld anything.
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Old 11th October 2018, 05:29 AM   #150
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https://vip.sos.nd.gov/pdfs/Portals/...balMembers.pdf

Date: September 28, 2018
To: Tribal leaders of Native American tribes located in North Dakota
From: North Dakota Secretary of State’s office
Re: Helping Native Americans to be able to vote in North Dakota elections
The statewide general election will occur on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, and we are writing to update you regarding how federal, state, local, and tribal governments, entities, and agencies can be of assistance to those individuals who may not have a valid ID for voting or their ID has an old residential address, a mailing address such as a PO Box, or does not have an address at all.
The same federal and state laws apply to all qualified electors of North Dakota with the exception that tribal members have more forms of ID and supplemental documents available to them for voting than do other qualified electors. These additional IDs and documents are or can be provided by the organizations you represent.

One of the valid ID options is a tribal ID issued by a tribal government
in ND (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address).
If the information on the ID is incorrect, not current, missing, or is a mailing address rather than a residential street address, the information may be updated by providing supplemental documentation that contains the correct information to the election official distributing the ballot.
The documents that may be provided are a current utility bill; a current bank statement; a check or a document issued by a federal, state, local, or tribal government (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address); or a paycheck.

As representatives of tribal governments or other tribal agencies or entities in North Dakota, you can provide the necessary information you know to be true for the tribal members who look to you for assistance in being able to vote. The IDs and documents you provide are useful to the individuals you serve both before and after an election to help them express their voices through the voting process in our democracy.
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Old 11th October 2018, 05:30 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by River View Post
That makes things verifiable. You can actually go to that address, and see there is a person there with that ID. Too much to ask? Too bad.
Earlier you proposed making entire reservations an address…

Originally Posted by River View Post
Too much to ask? Too bad.
Following voters home IS to much to ask. There is a reason why votes are anonymous. Harassing voters is a common election tactic in pseudo-democracies.
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Old 11th October 2018, 05:48 AM   #152
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Hmm, how odd that after a Democrat is elected to the senate, with the winning margin being thousands of votes from people living on reservations, the GOP got together to devise a new law that cleverly will keep those people from voting.


I mean they aren't even trying to hide being evil anymore.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:15 AM   #153
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Fun Fact: If the Democrats started meddling with voting laws shortly before an important election to create additional burdens on people who might vote against them in the name of addressing a statistically nonexistent problem, the very same conservatives defending the North Dakota law would absolutely lose their ****. And rightly so.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:21 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Fun Fact: If the Democrats started meddling with voting laws shortly before an important election to create additional burdens on people who might vote against them in the name of addressing a statistically nonexistent problem, the very same conservatives defending the North Dakota law would absolutely lose their ****. And rightly so.
Probably true but in this case the ID law was not enacted shortly before an election.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:24 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I suppose it depends on the interpretation by election officials. A license that is expired is still "valid" for identification purposes, or at least it should be treated a such because there is nothing about it that makes it unsuitable for that purpose. In North Dakota, the informational web site says a "valid" driver's license, but doesn't define the term. The statute itself says an ID issued by the state DoT, which would include expired licenses.
In Florida an expired DL is not valid for any sort of transaction requiring ID. If I sell cigarettes to a 40 year-old person with an expired DL I can be sent to jail.

Also, where is it free to get state issued ID? Here it costs around $50 just to renew valid ID. And requires an original birth certificate (up to $100 to wrangle in some cases) as well as a government entity mailed item. If Florida required what ND does, tens of thousands would be disenfranchised in what would amount to a poll tax.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:29 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Probably true but in this case the ID law was not enacted shortly before an election.
Define "shortly." For example, this ID law was not in place during the primaries, so it would be enacted between the primaries and the general election.

Is that not "shortly" enough before the election?
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:30 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by River View Post
That makes things verifiable. You can actually go to that address, and see there is a person there with that ID. Too much to ask? Too bad. Everyone else has to follow that. It's ridiculous that this has not been solved already by their local governments by creating addresses for the reservations. Ridiculous politics, and hurting some individuals. We agree on that point only.
Except that the problem only exists in the minds of anti-democratic politicians seeking power, and the suckers who buy into their transparent shenanigans.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:40 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Probably true but in this case the ID law was not enacted shortly before an election.
That this nitpick is the best counter argument you could muster speaks to the truth of my statement.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:44 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Define "shortly." For example, this ID law was not in place during the primaries, so it would be enacted between the primaries and the general election.

Is that not "shortly" enough before the election?
Wasn’t the law enacted a few years ago?
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:48 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
https://vip.sos.nd.gov/pdfs/Portals/...balMembers.pdf

Date: September 28, 2018
To: Tribal leaders of Native American tribes located in North Dakota
From: North Dakota Secretary of State’s office
Re: Helping Native Americans to be able to vote in North Dakota elections
The statewide general election will occur on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, and we are writing to update you regarding how federal, state, local, and tribal governments, entities, and agencies can be of assistance to those individuals who may not have a valid ID for voting or their ID has an old residential address, a mailing address such as a PO Box, or does not have an address at all.
The same federal and state laws apply to all qualified electors of North Dakota with the exception that tribal members have more forms of ID and supplemental documents available to them for voting than do other qualified electors. These additional IDs and documents are or can be provided by the organizations you represent.

One of the valid ID options is a tribal ID issued by a tribal government
in ND (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address).
If the information on the ID is incorrect, not current, missing, or is a mailing address rather than a residential street address, the information may be updated by providing supplemental documentation that contains the correct information to the election official distributing the ballot.
The documents that may be provided are a current utility bill; a current bank statement; a check or a document issued by a federal, state, local, or tribal government (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address); or a paycheck.

As representatives of tribal governments or other tribal agencies or entities in North Dakota, you can provide the necessary information you know to be true for the tribal members who look to you for assistance in being able to vote. The IDs and documents you provide are useful to the individuals you serve both before and after an election to help them express their voices through the voting process in our democracy.
Offering people multiple ways to provide their residential street address is not helpful when they do not have a residential street address…
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