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Old 14th December 2019, 03:30 PM   #201
Samson
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A tourist who has taken the White Island Tour, who asked not to be named, said the risks were not explicitly stated in their safety briefing and it was assumed they were allowed to be on the island as it was safe.

The tourist could not recall seeing any gas detection equipment on the guides.

"We were just told to wear the masks if the gas was troubling you," she said.

"I think if I was told explicitly that there could be dangerous gasses on the island and the lack of a quick escape plan before hand, I would not have gone," she said.


This article expands on what is clearly an international scandal.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/118...ps-says-expert

In New Zealand it is compulsory to erect scaffolding to paint a one story house, building costs have exploded with poverty and homelessness, but a blind eye was turned to this lethal tour operator.
This is not hindsight at all, there were plenty of volcanologists saying this was a certainty one day. Of course 23 of 24 hours the island is deserted, thus allowing a chance to get away with this for 100 years.
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Old 14th December 2019, 03:57 PM   #202
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There was a comment on the ABC radio news this morning, that the face masks provided to the tourists were totally unsuitable for the job and 'little more than a costume'.
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Old 14th December 2019, 05:13 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
A tourist who has taken the White Island Tour, who asked not to be named, said the risks were not explicitly stated in their safety briefing and it was assumed they were allowed to be on the island as it was safe.

The tourist could not recall seeing any gas detection equipment on the guides.

"We were just told to wear the masks if the gas was troubling you," she said.

"I think if I was told explicitly that there could be dangerous gasses on the island and the lack of a quick escape plan before hand, I would not have gone," she said.


This article expands on what is clearly an international scandal.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/118...ps-says-expert

a) In New Zealand it is compulsory to erect scaffolding to paint a one story house, building costs have exploded with poverty and homelessness, b) but a blind eye was turned to this lethal tour operator.
This is not hindsight at all, there were plenty of volcanologists saying this was a certainty one day. c) Of course 23 of 24 hours the island is deserted, thus allowing a chance to get away with this for 100 years.
a) No it isn't

b) No there wasn't

c) No it wasn't, each proper tour alone takes 5-6 hours - Hint a day is 24 hours



Why do you keep making stuff up?
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Old 14th December 2019, 05:51 PM   #204
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Quote:
Many Māori the Observer spoke to said it was wrong for anyone – tourist or otherwise – to set foot on the sacred soil of Whakaari, considered a living ancestor by the local tribe, Ngāti Awa. Some in town expressed anger that the island was administered by private owners, and that tours costing upwards of NZ$250 (Ł123) were out of reach of many locals, where the median annual income is NZ$25,000, and unemployment is 11% – more than double the national rate.

Joshua Kauta, a 70-year-old Ngāti Awa local, watched Friday morning’s retrieval operation from the shore: “None of this should have happened and it scares me to think of the risks those guys have had to take – anything could happen, she’s unpredictable. She shouldn’t be taken for granted any more.”

Some Māori viewed White Island’s eruption on Monday as a sign of the volcano’s dissent and protest; that “she” – as locals describe her – was sick of increasing numbers of tourists and boats traipsing across her bones. And she blew to show humans her power.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...islands-future

Just another day in New Zealand, 2019: people believing in female volcanoes (how do they determine the sex) that kill people in anger of their presence.
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Old 14th December 2019, 06:04 PM   #205
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Awful lot of hindsight criticism.

However, it would not surprise me if neither the tour guides nor the tourists were properly prepared, both with warnings and emergency equipment and instructions. I can't tell you how many trips I've taken where no one is prepared for emergencies.
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Old 14th December 2019, 06:19 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...islands-future

Just another day in New Zealand, 2019: people believing in female volcanoes (how do they determine the sex) that kill people in anger of their presence.
Are you saying it is unusual for societies to call inanimate objects "she"?

The Navy rang and said "what?"

Anger bit is a tad weird, but then Maori custom of Taniwha etc is a bit weird, like a bunch of white dudes hanging out thinking wine is some 2000 old dead blokes blood.
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Old 14th December 2019, 06:23 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Awful lot of hindsight criticism.

However, it would not surprise me if neither the tour guides nor the tourists were properly prepared, both with warnings and emergency equipment and instructions. I can't tell you how many trips I've taken where no one is prepared for emergencies.
No one expects an emergency..

Meanwhile, how do you prepare for a volcano eruption besides just staying away?
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Old 14th December 2019, 06:30 PM   #208
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Based on local legend from Aztec society the two volcanos I can see are a him and a her. She has been dormant since Aztec tribes ceased to exist but he has been lightly active since it has been monitored. And before of course.

Major earthquakes have probably changed the routes of the magma making her rest.
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Old 14th December 2019, 09:02 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
No one expects an emergency..

Meanwhile, how do you prepare for a volcano eruption besides just staying away?
Proper masks and heat protection, evacuation plans, tour guides monitoring gas emissions from the crater and knowledge about the norm and elevated levels. They could have kept people back from the crater center given the level two alert. They might have consulted with the geologists monitoring the crater for advice.

It's not that hard. Not perfect, but better than they had.
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Old 14th December 2019, 09:04 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Based on local legend from Aztec society the two volcanos I can see are a him and a her. She has been dormant since Aztec tribes ceased to exist but he has been lightly active since it has been monitored. And before of course.

Major earthquakes have probably changed the routes of the magma making her rest.
Péle is a she. Mother Earth and all maybe.
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Old 14th December 2019, 09:16 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
No one expects an emergency..

Meanwhile, how do you prepare for a volcano eruption besides just staying away?
Well you don't

Kind of the whole point of going there

You give out breathing masks, ask if they have medical conditions, tell people to take inhalers if asthmatic, tell people to only walk where the guide walks, and tell them to let the guide know if they are getting spooked, advise the extreme obese one they are dim and shouldn't probably do it (not in those words), tell people to watch the kids.

Then sign waiver.

Kind of standard stuff here.

Replace breathing mask with whatever the thing. Wet suit, life jacket, parachute etc, if it is another adventure tourism thing.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th December 2019, 09:19 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Proper masks and heat protection, evacuation plans, tour guides monitoring gas emissions from the crater and knowledge about the norm and elevated levels. They could have kept people back from the crater center given the level two alert. They might have consulted with the geologists monitoring the crater for advice.

It's not that hard. Not perfect, but better than they had.
GNS were monitoring gas emissions and ground movement and made it 2, who are some of the biggest brains in volcano and earthquakes in the world given where we are.

I wouldn't trust a tour company doing it.
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Old 14th December 2019, 09:39 PM   #213
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Another of the injured has died.

One of the Aussies transported home a couple of days ago.

Death toll now 16
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th December 2019, 10:51 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
GNS were monitoring gas emissions and ground movement and made it 2, who are some of the biggest brains in volcano and earthquakes in the world given where we are.

I wouldn't trust a tour company doing it.
They could have worked together. I suspect the USGS Volcano Monitoring program differs.

Not that this is anything like the Mt St Helens, but take St Helens after the main erupting was over. The USGS keeps a eye on things and allows people into the crater or orders it closed. It is a national park so again, not perfectly comparable.
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Old 14th December 2019, 10:53 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They could have worked together. I suspect the USGS Volcano Monitoring program differs.

Not that this is anything like the Mt St Helens, but take St Helens after the main erupting was over. The USGS keeps a eye on things and allows people into the crater or orders it closed. It is a national park so again, not perfectly comparable.
They do

Sorry, thought that was a given

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Old 15th December 2019, 09:10 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Kind of standard stuff here.

..
But not preparing for an emergency .. ( eruption )

I was responding to:

Quote:
...I can't tell you how many trips I've taken where no one is prepared for emergencies.
Which I suggested would be difficult, if not impossible when visiting an active volcano..


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Proper masks and heat protection, evacuation plans, tour guides monitoring gas emissions from the crater and knowledge about the norm and elevated levels. They could have kept people back from the crater center given the level two alert. They might have consulted with the geologists monitoring the crater for advice.

It's not that hard. Not perfect, but better than they had.
None of the things I highlighted would protect you from a nearby eruption.

Yes it is hard to prepare for a sudden, eruption while you are nearby.. Try impossible. The only alternative is to be far away..
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Old 15th December 2019, 08:08 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
There was a comment on the ABC radio news this morning, that the face masks provided to the tourists were totally unsuitable for the job and 'little more than a costume'.
Most of the masks people use are ineffective. I see people walking around with simple surgeon's masks, not even properly fitted, presumably in the belief that they will do something about the smoke haze from the bushfires.

If you can get your finger between the mask and your face, it doesn't matter how fine the weave is, it's not doing anything.
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Old 15th December 2019, 10:33 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
But not preparing for an emergency .. ( eruption )

I was responding to:



Which I suggested would be difficult, if not impossible when visiting an active volcano..




None of the things I highlighted would protect you from a nearby eruption.

Yes it is hard to prepare for a sudden, eruption while you are nearby.. Try impossible. The only alternative is to be far away..
Ahh. Sorry.

Fair points, btw

Agree
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Old 16th December 2019, 02:29 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
No one expects an emergency..

Meanwhile, how do you prepare for a volcano eruption besides just staying away?
AIUI the NZ (or Aussie) military had provided an emergency shelter in case of said accident. Sadly, it is placed in an area completely inaccessible to those traipsing the area.
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Old 16th December 2019, 02:31 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well you don't

Kind of the whole point of going there

You give out breathing masks, ask if they have medical conditions, tell people to take inhalers if asthmatic, tell people to only walk where the guide walks, and tell them to let the guide know if they are getting spooked, advise the extreme obese one they are dim and shouldn't probably do it (not in those words), tell people to watch the kids.

Then sign waiver.

Kind of standard stuff here.

Replace breathing mask with whatever the thing. Wet suit, life jacket, parachute etc, if it is another adventure tourism thing.
They did sign waivers. Not worth the paper they are written on, thankfully.
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Old 16th December 2019, 02:38 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They did sign waivers. Not worth the paper they are written on, thankfully.


Kind of irrelevant to be fair

We have an universal accident coverage which is called ACC, which rules out anyone sueing companies unless it is criminal.

Usually a good thing as anyone who has a bad accident in any situation gets free medical care and if a kiwi about 70-80% of their wages paid till they can ever work again. eg (canes off motorbike. Breaks back in weekend rugby. Cuts finger off at work. etc etc). Going up with inflation.

In these one offs I can imagine for the families of the dead and injured a bit annoying to say the least.
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