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Old 31st January 2023, 07:55 AM   #1
Chanakya

 
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Why do some conservatives fear liberals?

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Well said.

I would only say that if by "we" you mean everyone and not just forum members and other skeptics, that for the vast majority of people their provisional opinion quickly becomes permanent.

I've changed views on a lot of things in my life, most of them fairly recently, and the ability to examine my own beliefs was the reason. That ability was taught to me, and I actively try to improve my thinking skills. Many people don't even know what this paragraph means

Yes, agreed. Being able to change one's mind, that seems such a simple thing. And yet that's clearly beyond the powers of most people, or so it often seems.

Heh, even within this forum, actually, it's only the rare member who readily acknowledges it when they're clearly shown to be mistaken. Despite most of us self-describing as skeptics, most of us don't seem to be very good at changing our mind when warranted, even about incidental things we happen to be generally arguing about, and far less things that are more than of incidental interest to us.

But then we all like to think of ourselves as oh-so-skeptical, us here in this place; and it's always those others that are so inexplicably inflexible and irrational and unwilling to change their mind! Who knows, might others view us likewise, and might we in fact be more inflexible than we like to think we are?! That's something to always be careful about, isn't it.


-----

Yep, it's very cool, your having been able to change your thinking and your opinion about such a fundamental part of your worldview. Apologies if I'm mixing you up with someone else --- in which case do please correct me --- but I seem to remember you as having started a thread to discuss this change in how you see things. It was, again unless I'm mistaking someone else' thread for yours, about your politics I think, about throwing away right-wing blinkers and embracing a more heretical left-oriented worldview (aka, a worldview better synched with reality!).

To have been able to do that, that's very, very commendable.



eta:
Again, apologies if I've got this all mixed up with someone else! I don't remember if I even posted in that thread I'm talking about, most probably not, but I did read it. If I've got all of that wrong, then do please go ahead and spell out what recent change in opinions you were speaking of here, if you'd like to that is.


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Old 31st January 2023, 03:36 PM   #2
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Yes, agreed. Being able to change one's mind, that seems such a simple thing. And yet that's clearly beyond the powers of most people, or so it often seems.

Heh, even within this forum, actually, it's only the rare member who readily acknowledges it when they're clearly shown to be mistaken. Despite most of us self-describing as skeptics, most of us don't seem to be very good at changing our mind when warranted, even about incidental things we happen to be generally arguing about, and far less things that are more than of incidental interest to us.

But then we all like to think of ourselves as oh-so-skeptical, us here in this place; and it's always those others that are so inexplicably inflexible and irrational and unwilling to change their mind! Who knows, might others view us likewise, and might we in fact be more inflexible than we like to think we are?! That's something to always be careful about, isn't it.


-----

Yep, it's very cool, your having been able to change your thinking and your opinion about such a fundamental part of your worldview. Apologies if I'm mixing you up with someone else --- in which case do please correct me --- but I seem to remember you as having started a thread to discuss this change in how you see things. It was, again unless I'm mistaking someone else' thread for yours, about your politics I think, about throwing away right-wing blinkers and embracing a more heretical left-oriented worldview (aka, a worldview better synched with reality!).

To have been able to do that, that's very, very commendable.



eta:
Again, apologies if I've got this all mixed up with someone else! I don't remember if I even posted in that thread I'm talking about, most probably not, but I did read it. If I've got all of that wrong, then do please go ahead and spell out what recent change in opinions you were speaking of here, if you'd like to that is.

That was me. And thanks

Briefly, I'm more open to a lot of things, though they probably largely fall into being more liberal. I was never a hateful person, I have a gay member of my family and am totally proud of her for coming out a long time ago. Not racist. I don't think.

I mainly just hated liberals. Hating liberals is the main focus for Republicans but I never joined the party. They sounded like idiots a lot of the time, but again, I was convinced that liberals were worse.

I think that must be true with a lot of Republicans. I think my Dad would abandon the party, at least not vote party line, if he felt he had an alternative.

But in their minds the Dems are the worst thing in the world.

That is the only thing keeping a lot of that party together - the belief that Democrats are not just worse, but far far worse. A lot of people would jump ship if they could see through their own bias, and the GOP knows this.

I just understand people more and see how being angry and judgmental helps nobody, including myself. I am way happier and less angry. Now I'm angry with the Right and more angry than I've ever been about anything political. I'm less angry about things that really don't matter.

I just was able to finally lift the blinders and see what I already knew in the back of my mind. I guess it took Trump for that to happen.

And just because I changed my mind about that doesn't mean I'm suddenly Mr Skeptic. I'm always trying to improve, even if that doesn't always show

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Old 31st January 2023, 06:56 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I mainly just hated liberals. Hating liberals is the main focus for Republicans but I never joined the party. They sounded like idiots a lot of the time, but again, I was convinced that liberals were worse.
At the time, did you even know what a "liberal" was?
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Old 4th February 2023, 05:20 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
At the time, did you even know what a "liberal" was?

You know what they are! They want the Mexicans coming in for political gain, they have the evil AOC, they want the guns, they want all your money to pay for all the lazy people who won't work...all the typical talking point ******** still used today.

To answer your question, I guess the answer is no. The Republicans draw a scary caricature of a liberal and tell you that's what one is. They show you news clips that support this, edited of course.

What I gather from all my conversations with Republicans now, not here at ISF, is that they have no idea what the Democrats really want. It's laughable. They are so deeply up their own ass there's no point in trying to talk them into reality, even on the tiniest of subjects.

I don't mean all Republicans, just every single one I've ever spoken to outside of ISF, including a very politically active family friend. He's actually worse!

ETA:
I'll say more because **** this guy. His name is Jack (John) Cox, was Goldwater Jr's chief of staff, thinks gay people can be cured and should be (I guess on the last part), and his wife who knew and worked with G. Gordon Liddy believes that dinosaurs and humans co-existed, and the creatures hid on an island during the great flood or some bullcrap.

She was just a secretary helping with Nixon's campaign, no involvement, but she knew all the players. They are also anti-vax and have had Covid at least twice. He still writes all of Goldwater's speeches, ya he's still alive. My Dad has met him and says he's a moron.

They'd be interesting people to talk to if they weren't so weird. I must say that Jack has been a great friend to my parents, truly (but they're not gay so...).

ETA2:
It's weird for me because this guy really is a good friend to the parents. Helped out with a funeral, did a lot of the leg work. He's always been there in a big way for them. I want to say it's because they are all "on the same team" but I'm gonna give him credit for being a good guy to those around him, and his community as well. He's really done a lot and has used his political connections for good.

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Old 5th February 2023, 06:01 AM   #5
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That last part of Mgidm's post above reminds me of several people I've known who were, in many ways, the worst and most pernicious folks around, and at the same time had some virtues that were quite the other way around.

I've known a few people who were astoundingly awful in some areas of life, and just as surprisingly generous and forgiving and altruistic in others. People are complicated!

A lot of toxic ideologies have holes and leaks, whether just through a lack of introspection or "some of my best friends are" loopholes, or clichés about exceptions proving the rule, that allow people to maintain them without ever having to evaluate whether they make sense.
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Old 5th February 2023, 07:21 AM   #6
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There is the old law and order part. But I think hate is a bigger factor than fear. They hate that liberals "are getting stuff for free that I'm paying for." Plus they are lazy and don't want to work! They just want to party, have sex and abort the babies!
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Old 5th February 2023, 08:23 AM   #7
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Most Republicans don't know, nor do they understand, most 'liberal' policy stances. More to the point, most GOP voters don't know Republican policy preferences.

It boils down to them just being, consistently, wrong. Accidentally or willfully (increasingly the latter) doesn't change it much. That's how they can be perfectly decent people outside of politics. My mother's side of the family is like this, and are in consistent denial about how the policies they vote for would impact not just their family, but themselves. The evil 'liberal government' helps them specifically a lot using the very things they say have destroyed America.

But to twist an old adage, if he's nice to you but wants is fine with the waiter not having civil rights or healthcare, he's not nice.
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Old 5th February 2023, 08:57 AM   #8
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I just wish that those conservatives who profess to he Christian would come to the realization that the GOP is decidedly anti-Jesus.

Whether truly faithful or just going through the motions, this surely cannot be hard to see. How can a lifetime of having the Jesus story ever present be compartmentalized and boarded up, in order to give way to fear and to give sway to hate? I mean, they KNOW their Lord and Savior would turn the other cheek, forgive, love. Yet these hypocrites are in a constant cycle of frothing fury over phantasmagorical enemies dreamed up for them.

But then, why should I be surprised? A mind given already to belief on faith, sceptically weak, ready to reject evidence, is the clay of manipulators.
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Old 5th February 2023, 09:51 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I just wish that those conservatives who profess to he Christian would come to the realization that the GOP is decidedly anti-Jesus.

Whether truly faithful or just going through the motions, this surely cannot be hard to see. How can a lifetime of having the Jesus story ever present be compartmentalized and boarded up, in order to give way to fear and to give sway to hate? I mean, they KNOW their Lord and Savior would turn the other cheek, forgive, love. Yet these hypocrites are in a constant cycle of frothing fury over phantasmagorical enemies dreamed up for them.

But then, why should I be surprised? A mind given already to belief on faith, sceptically weak, ready to reject evidence, is the clay of manipulators.
I think you've got it backwards. They're not conservative because they're Christian, they're Christian because they're conservative. They take the faith they were told to take, in childhood, by their parents. Deviation from change is what they hate, and in the US anyway they started as Christian. Practice, of course, doesn't matter unless the same authority that told them they were Christians also practiced Christianity. But if their "Christian" parents didn't help the poor and love their neighbors then neither will their children.

The "faith" isn't for the religion, in other words. The faith is that what they experienced to begin with --their entire cultural and social and political milieu -- is the good, and anything different is bad. Nominal Christianity with gestures but not actual practice or analysis of belief is just one item in the set of things American conservatives generally start out with.

And I don't think this is unique to America or Christianity. There are equally fervent-in-name-but-not-in-practice Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews in other places. Fear of change is the problem, religion is just one of the things crammed into the set of things that aren't allowed to change.
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Old 5th February 2023, 01:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
There is the old law and order part. But I think hate is a bigger factor than fear. They hate that liberals "are getting stuff for free that I'm paying for." Plus they are lazy and don't want to work! They just want to party, have sex and abort the babies!
Hate is often a result of fear. It's often how a person deals with fear because being afraid makes you more feel more vulnerable than anger. Anger is safer than fear.
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Old 5th February 2023, 01:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think you've got it backwards. They're not conservative because they're Christian, they're Christian because they're conservative. They take the faith they were told to take, in childhood, by their parents. Deviation from change is what they hate, and in the US anyway they started as Christian. Practice, of course, doesn't matter unless the same authority that told them they were Christians also practiced Christianity. But if their "Christian" parents didn't help the poor and love their neighbors then neither will their children.

The "faith" isn't for the religion, in other words. The faith is that what they experienced to begin with --their entire cultural and social and political milieu -- is the good, and anything different is bad. Nominal Christianity with gestures but not actual practice or analysis of belief is just one item in the set of things American conservatives generally start out with.

And I don't think this is unique to America or Christianity. There are equally fervent-in-name-but-not-in-practice Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews in other places. Fear of change is the problem, religion is just one of the things crammed into the set of things that aren't allowed to change.
Absolutely! I've been saying this about conservatives for many years. Conservatism is the fear of change; it loves 'tradition', the status quo, rigidity, and the mindset that ' if it was good enough for my grand-daddy, it's good enough for me!" Conservatism look backwards.
On the other hand, liberals tend to embrace change. Progress cannot be made without change. Liberalism looks forward.

I also agree 100% with the earlier comment by mgidm86 that "for the vast majority of people their provisional opinion quickly becomes permanent." Most people form an opinion on something very early on and, despite any information that may follow that challenges or disproves that opinion, will cling to that opinion. People do not like to admit they are wrong; it's a form of narcissism. They think admitting error is a weakness. I see it as a strength. But as I've said many times: people would rather BE wrong than admit they ARE wrong.
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Old 6th February 2023, 02:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I just wish that those conservatives who profess to he Christian would come to the realization that the GOP is decidedly anti-Jesus.

You know there's more that one Jesus, don't you? (And I'm not thinking of the fat one and the two skinny ones.)
There are as many as there are Christians, and Republicans love Machine Gun Jesus!
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Old 6th February 2023, 03:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Absolutely! I've been saying this about conservatives for many years. Conservatism is the fear of change; it loves 'tradition', the status quo, rigidity, and the mindset that ' if it was good enough for my grand-daddy, it's good enough for me!" Conservatism look backwards.
On the other hand, liberals tend to embrace change. Progress cannot be made without change. Liberalism looks forward.

I also agree 100% with the earlier comment by mgidm86 that "for the vast majority of people their provisional opinion quickly becomes permanent." Most people form an opinion on something very early on and, despite any information that may follow that challenges or disproves that opinion, will cling to that opinion. People do not like to admit they are wrong; it's a form of narcissism. They think admitting error is a weakness. I see it as a strength. But as I've said many times: people would rather BE wrong than admit they ARE wrong.

It sucks to admit you're wrong. It took me a year to come back here and say it. I remember telling my conservative step-Dad about the forum and people changing my mind and he asked one night, "Did you ever go back and tell them?"

I'm getting a little too angry here I feel like.

Sorry to all if my posts are showing it. Even if I'm right about something I don't mean to come across as a jerk. Or maybe I do, but sorry, I shouldn't.

I like you guys and I know we all can go off sometimes and take jabs etc and we get over it. I like that about this place. The same two people can argue in one forum and give advice in another. But still I feel like it's getting to me.

It's the frustration of feeling like I can't change anything and just watching it happen around me. Now let me get back to hating Republicans!
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Old 6th February 2023, 03:13 PM   #14
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Why do some conservatives fear liberals?

Why do some conservatives fear liberals?

Because that's all they have.
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Old 6th February 2023, 04:39 PM   #15
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mgidm86, I understand the frustration. Sometimes I get really pissed off, too. The older I get, the less patience I have with stupidity.
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Old 6th February 2023, 04:47 PM   #16
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Conservatism is fear driven. People become more conservative when you make them afraid and less conservative when when you inspire confidence. Right wing strategists have weaponized this effect, they set out to make their base afraid of everything and making them afraid of Liberals is their ideal scenario.
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Old 6th February 2023, 05:11 PM   #17
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It's easier to demonise a different idea than to consider it.

This is slso why some liberals fear conservatives. In part, at least.
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Old 6th February 2023, 06:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
It's easier to demonise a different idea than to consider it.

This is slso why some liberals fear conservatives. In part, at least.
I disagreed with several conservative policies but I never feared conservatives until they started going down the Tea Party extremist path about 15 years ago. They've scared the crap out of me since 2016.

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Old 6th February 2023, 06:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
It's easier to demonise a different idea than to consider it.

This is slso why some liberals fear conservatives. In part, at least.
The “different ideas” that conservatives have include: Climate change denial, anti-vaxxerism, election fraud conspiracy theories, and insurrection.

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Old 6th February 2023, 06:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The “different ideas” that conservatives have include: Climate change denial, anti-vaxxerism, election fraud conspiracy theories, and insurrection.
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Old 6th February 2023, 07:09 PM   #21
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It's easy enough to be wrong about things, and if you actually care to be right, you will, however grudgingly and unhappily, accede to the truth. Scientists do this often. But if your ideology is built on lies and you know it, truth is its enemy. It's top heavy.
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Old 6th February 2023, 07:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's easy enough to be wrong about things, and if you actually care to be right, you will, however grudgingly and unhappily, accede to the truth. Scientists do this often. But if your ideology is built on lies and you know it, truth is its enemy. It's top heavy.
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Old 6th February 2023, 08:17 PM   #23
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Question

Decades ago as a young adult I would embrace some conservative ideas and a few socialist ideas but never buy into any one side fully. Picking and choosing in politics keeps the votes from going all one way too.

What conservative has become is nothing like it was then. In fact in some ways it has gone against its own roots. That is scary.

But if the C side fears the L side it's really uneducated in my eyes. Someone who could otherwise be totally rational in many things buying the party line, swallowing the bait, hook, sinker and bobber.
I met some. We were not friends long. It didn't even matter which side the embrace.
Now I can't say it's easy to get into any political position easily for me as they all just get too much wrong. ( Mexico has well over ten parties established and more just come and go)
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Old 7th February 2023, 05:12 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I disagreed with several conservative policies but I never feared conservatives until they started going down the Tea Party extremist path about 15 years ago. They've scared the crap out of me since 2016.
There's also the fetishisation of guns and idolising the Second amendment that they've brought into the mainstream
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Old 7th February 2023, 06:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think you've got it backwards. They're not conservative because they're Christian, they're Christian because they're conservative. They take the faith they were told to take, in childhood, by their parents. Deviation from change is what they hate, and in the US anyway they started as Christian. Practice, of course, doesn't matter unless the same authority that told them they were Christians also practiced Christianity. But if their "Christian" parents didn't help the poor and love their neighbors then neither will their children.

The "faith" isn't for the religion, in other words. The faith is that what they experienced to begin with --their entire cultural and social and political milieu -- is the good, and anything different is bad. Nominal Christianity with gestures but not actual practice or analysis of belief is just one item in the set of things American conservatives generally start out with.

And I don't think this is unique to America or Christianity. There are equally fervent-in-name-but-not-in-practice Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews in other places. Fear of change is the problem, religion is just one of the things crammed into the set of things that aren't allowed to change.
I have an extremely conservative, Christian relative. I'm no longer religious, but I have attended her church with her as a gesture of good will. During one particular visit, she had spent a fair bit of time ranting about immigrants (she's in a very rural part of Ohio, absolutely no border with Mexico, but it's 'those damn illegal Mexicans' with her) due to one of the Fox News Migrant Caravan Manufactroversies. That Sunday, the Preacher of her church based his sermon on 'The Good Samaritan' and how Jesus said Christians should treat immigrants with love. My relative actually left that church shortly thereafter, to join with another church that just joined the Global Methodist schism over gays.

tl;dr version: They hate who they're told to hate by their chosen media, so much so that they will change a longstanding church relationship over a lack of hate in the church.
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Old 7th February 2023, 07:09 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I have an extremely conservative, Christian relative. I'm no longer religious, but I have attended her church with her as a gesture of good will. During one particular visit, she had spent a fair bit of time ranting about immigrants (she's in a very rural part of Ohio, absolutely no border with Mexico, but it's 'those damn illegal Mexicans' with her) due to one of the Fox News Migrant Caravan Manufactroversies. That Sunday, the Preacher of her church based his sermon on 'The Good Samaritan' and how Jesus said Christians should treat immigrants with love. My relative actually left that church shortly thereafter, to join with another church that just joined the Global Methodist schism over gays.

tl;dr version: They hate who they're told to hate by their chosen media, so much so that they will change a longstanding church relationship over a lack of hate in the church.

Hilarious story. These morons aren't even religious, not even in the loosest sense of the word. (Well maybe they are too, because that descriptor, religious, can actually stretch looser than loose. But completely hilarious. What's even more hilarious, although actually it's kind of worrying as well, is how completely oblivious are these folks to what kind of people they actually are.)
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Old 7th February 2023, 07:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Hilarious story. These morons aren't even religious, not even in the loosest sense of the word. (Well maybe they are too, because that descriptor, religious, can actually stretch looser than loose. But completely hilarious. What's even more hilarious, although actually it's kind of worrying as well, is how completely oblivious are these folks to what kind of people they actually are.)
In her mind, she is religious. She goes to church every Sunday, prays before every meal, has Christian bibles all over her house (and thinks a Bible makes a great birthday gift for all her teenage relatives!), Christian artwork all over the walls, etc.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:07 AM   #28
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When you attack someone's position, you might be attacking what they fundementally are, not just a position they hold. So facts and argumentation don't really work. An interesting article:

https://www.bullshido.net/cant-chang...nd-with-facts/

Progressives have the edge here, because change is built right into their positions, whereas conservatives are more stagnant. I guess that's why liberals are both successful in adapting, and also fragmented within their party. Change is so acceptable that they will spin off in different directions, while conservatives stay +/- locked.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The “different ideas” that conservatives have include: Climate change denial, anti-vaxxerism, election fraud conspiracy theories, and insurrection.
There's a lot of that on the left too.

Plus the left has Tankies, various other forms of medical woo, extreme animal welfare activists...

I'm not saying one side isn't worse, I'm just saying it's not 100% lunatics on one side and 100% sane people on the other.

Oh and for the record I'm a progressive socialist.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
There's a lot of that on the left too.

Plus the left has Tankies, various other forms of medical woo, extreme animal welfare activists...

I'm not saying one side isn't worse, I'm just saying it's not 100% lunatics on one side and 100% sane people on the other.

Oh and for the record I'm a progressive socialist.
Yes, but anti-vaxxerism became de facto GOP policy in large parts of the US.

I'm not sure of a corresponding position w.r.t. the Democrats and Tankies, extreme animal welfare or medical woo (of which there is a fair amount on the right).
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Old 7th February 2023, 09:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
There's a lot of that on the left too.

Plus the left has Tankies, various other forms of medical woo, extreme animal welfare activists...

I'm not saying one side isn't worse, I'm just saying it's not 100% lunatics on one side and 100% sane people on the other.

Oh and for the record I'm a progressive socialist.
To piggy-back on The Don's response, none of your examples of lunacy on the left are mainstream beliefs. Every one of my examples of lunacy on the right are not only mainstream, they are proudly espoused by Republicans in some of the highest offices of government.

Both sides have always had their fringe elements, but only conservatives have taken the fringe and made it their defining ideology. One side definitely is worse, and it's not even close.
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Old 7th February 2023, 09:35 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
There's a lot of that on the left too.

Plus the left has Tankies, various other forms of medical woo, extreme animal welfare activists...

I'm not saying one side isn't worse, I'm just saying it's not 100% lunatics on one side and 100% sane people on the other.

Oh and for the record I'm a progressive socialist.

I haven't met a single left-wing person who is antivax. And I meet more left-wing than right-wing people. I know that they do exist, but when they do, they tend to be new age rather than left-wing. There used to be a connection between the two things, but I'm not sure that's still the case.
Stats also show that red states in the USA tend to be much more antivax than blue states.
However, I have noticed that some current antivaxxers (and covid deniers) used to be left-wing and have now moved towards the pretty extreme end of the right-wing political spectrum.

Recently banned CE is a case in point. In her and in some other cases, sympathy for Putin and Lukashenko seems to have pushed them in that direction.
Irony: Nowadays, right-wingers tend to admire Putin, too!

In the case of CE, the change became obvious in the thread Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts.
Irony: Another banned member, right-wing, started the thread out of pure Schadenfreude because of Sweden's failed and allegedly liberal strategy, which was soon adopted as exemplary by all right-wing politicians and conspiracy nuts!

A quora thread: Are anti-vaxxers right wing? Matthew Smith's story about how he became a provaxxer is very interesting!

So to answer the question, why do some conservatives fear liberals?
They only fear and hate sane liberals! And they fear and hate the few sane conservatives that are still left even more! Renegade RINOs!
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Old 7th February 2023, 11:06 AM   #33
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I have started watching YouTubes at the Hoover Institution.*

The presentations are generally calm, thought out and delivered in a respectful manner. There is no name calling and very little gloom and doom. Addressing the OP, the people in the talks don't fear liberals. They just think liberals are dead wrong.

While I don't agree with a lot of their conclusions, watching their YouTubes at least gives me a chance to hear what conservatives think without all the crazy hype.

*https://www.youtube.com/@HooverInstitution

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Old 7th February 2023, 12:00 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
There's a lot of that on the left too.

Plus the left has Tankies, various other forms of medical woo, extreme animal welfare activists...

I'm not saying one side isn't worse, I'm just saying it's not 100% lunatics on one side and 100% sane people on the other.

Oh and for the record I'm a progressive socialist.
I think this is entirely true, as usual. But I think (without proof, just a feeling) that it's easier to stay a liberal while dismissing the lunacies of some than it is to stay a conservative while dismissing conservative lunacies, because they are more integral to the whole edifice.
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Old 7th February 2023, 12:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
... While I don't agree with a lot of their conclusions, watching their YouTubes at least gives me a chance to hear what conservatives think without all the crazy hype.

*https://www.youtube.com/@HooverInstitution
But crazy hype is what the bulk of GOP Trumpers believe. That there are still sane right-wingers doesn't change the current nature of the Party.

Another bit of GOP poison that is making bipartisanship impossible is the push by their leaders to constantly criticize the left no matter what. Some of the ludicrous criticisms of Biden that were said concerning the Chinese balloon are the latest examples. And I do mean ludicrous.



What are Tankies?
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Old 7th February 2023, 12:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think this is entirely true, as usual. But I think (without proof, just a feeling) that it's easier to stay a liberal while dismissing the lunacies of some than it is to stay a conservative while dismissing conservative lunacies, because they are more integral to the whole edifice.
Exactly! Getting 'primaried' pushes the GOP further and further into the lunacy fringe.

And the news media loves it and eats it up.

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Old 7th February 2023, 02:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
There's also the fetishisation of guns and idolising the Second amendment that they've brought into the mainstream
Yeah, their love affair with guns is something I've never understood.
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Old 7th February 2023, 02:48 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
In her mind, she is religious. She goes to church every Sunday, prays before every meal, has Christian bibles all over her house (and thinks a Bible makes a great birthday gift for all her teenage relatives!), Christian artwork all over the walls, etc.
It's scary how much evil is done by people who think they're doing "God's work": the Inquisition, the Crusaders, the Knights Templar, the KKK, White Christian Nationalists like Elohim City, the Taliban, al-Qaeda, ISIS, al-Shabaab, etc.

Some people hide behind and use religion to justify their hate, racism, and bigotry. Strip away their religious facade and they'd be no different.
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Old 7th February 2023, 02:51 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
When you attack someone's position, you might be attacking what they fundementally are, not just a position they hold. So facts and argumentation don't really work. An interesting article:

https://www.bullshido.net/cant-chang...nd-with-facts/

Progressives have the edge here, because change is built right into their positions, whereas conservatives are more stagnant. I guess that's why liberals are both successful in adapting, and also fragmented within their party. Change is so acceptable that they will spin off in different directions, while conservatives stay +/- locked.
Exactly.That is what I've said for a long time. Conservatives fear change, liberals embrace it.
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Old 7th February 2023, 03:02 PM   #40
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Not climate change!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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