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4th February 2023, 03:51 PM | #2921 |
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It looks like you haven’t read this thread. Despite LJs rants, nobody here is denying the rights of trans people to equality when it comes to things like employment and housing. Nobody has expressed any objection to people dressing and living the way they prefer and to have access to medical treatment to assist transition.
The problem is that so many TRAs demand access to women’s private places, eligibility to women’s scholarships, access to women’s prisons and shelters. They demand to play women’s sports, which is unfair and sometimes dangerous to women. Most transwomen making these demands have penises and some have raped women in their so-called safe places. What I and others object to is the attack on women’s rights by TRAs. But thanks for your depiction of posters and your drive-by. |
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4th February 2023, 04:11 PM | #2922 |
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Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.
But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong... |
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4th February 2023, 04:13 PM | #2923 |
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As to why it was created:
Quote:
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She was basically trying to write about two subgroups of radical feminists, delineated on views on trans women. Yes, she is/was pro-trans. But I think she was trying to be, if not neutral, descriptive as opposed to denigrating. But all of this is beside the point. Both descriptive terms have been weaponized beyond their literal meaning. (I've read claims that "TRA" is meant to resemble "MRA" and is used in a similar fashion. )
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4th February 2023, 04:14 PM | #2924 |
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4th February 2023, 04:21 PM | #2925 |
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It would be really great if you can show where these views have been expressed in this thread about any transwomen who is respectful of women. There are plenty of examples of hatred of women by transwomen linked in this thread, even very recently, including calls to punch or even kill “TERFS”. Care to comment about these examples?
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4th February 2023, 04:22 PM | #2926 |
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I can think of only one person posting here who would probably say you were wrong, and he wouldn't so much say 'wrong' as that you weren't really trans if you didn't see yourself as an actual girl. We have cited articles by trans people before (e.g. Debbie Hayton) who are critical of gender identity theory and don't think they have actually changed sex or that sexes should be redefined as identities.
Actually I know quite a few trans people now with similar views to yours. |
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4th February 2023, 04:24 PM | #2927 |
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Your position sounds pretty similar to Blair White and Rose of Dawn.
It's very hard to tell what positions are held by actual members of the trans community. I imagine there is quite a variation. The views that get the most press or social media attention are the most extreme ones. Similarly, people who misbehave or cause controversy also get headlines. I don't think pointing to Jessica Yaniv or Danielle Muscata as representative of the trans community is accurate. Both sides in this debate seem to think they know all about the psychology and motivations of trans people, and I think both sides (as represented here) are likely wrong. I, for one, am interested in your perspective. I'd also like to hear the perspective of people who are currently trans. What they actually want and think is reasonable and what portions of that come into conflict with what women want where rights butt up against each other. |
4th February 2023, 04:41 PM | #2928 |
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Well, maybe not the most extreme examples in this particular thread, but at least on Twitter I'm basically told just that: I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I didn't want to go into the girls' bathroom.
In fact, not just on Twitteer. A few articles straight up tell me I'm the worst human ever (which you'd think would be quite a difficult achievement given Caligula and Commodus and whatnot) if I even have any other issues as a higher priority than that I should have gotten into the girls' bathroom and lockers. |
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4th February 2023, 04:49 PM | #2929 |
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4th February 2023, 04:50 PM | #2930 |
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Ok, consider them withdrawn if that makes you feel any better.
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4th February 2023, 04:51 PM | #2931 |
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4th February 2023, 04:53 PM | #2932 |
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I think different trans people have very different motivations for transitioning (or identifying as another gender). It's a particular strand of dominant activists who push a specific ideological perspective on being transgender that suits their purposes and won't tolerate any dissent, including from other trans people.
'Dr María Inés de la Cruz' on twitter is an interesting example of the 'wrong type of trans' person being marginalized by activists. |
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4th February 2023, 05:12 PM | #2933 |
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I think I posted (bits of pieces of) this before. For years, even.
Mom wanted a son, grandma wanted a granddaughter. Both got their wish. I was biologically male, but Mom just passed me off to grandma to raise, which had me BE a girl until I was about 14 years old, at which point it was kinda hard to pass me off for a girl. I was raised to basically change gender at the drop of a coin. Mom left for work, I was a girl. I had a girl name. I had a beheaded doll like Wednesday Addams. I had a pink dress with the buttons on the 'girl' side. I played with other girls outside. And allegedly I at least once hold off peeing until I was just about to explode because in my preschool little mind I thought someone might notice I don't pee like a girl. Then mom came home and I suddenly was a boy. I didn't really think much about it at the moment. When I was with grandma, she said I was a girl, so I was a girl. When I was with mom, she said I was a boy, so I was a boy. If you can't trust your mom and grandma, who can you trust, right? I kinda got... confused for a while after that. I just... was used to being a girl. I had been a girl FAR more than I had been a boy, and at that most of my social interactions had been as a girl. (Plus the occasional faux pas like introducing myself by my girl name in first grade.) To be honest, I'm an old guy and I STILL find it more natural to think of myself as... well... there's a reason for the gender on my forum pic I don't think I ever thought of it as "identifying" as a girl, because to my mind when you identify X as Y, you're saying X=Y. I was pretty sure I had differences from an actual girl. Really, I only ever "identified" as "me." |
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4th February 2023, 05:21 PM | #2934 |
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Your (slightly later than) midnight check-in on the petition reports 78,609 signatures, so 237 new signatures today. A bit quieter again.
The new magic number is 285.2. |
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4th February 2023, 05:25 PM | #2935 |
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4th February 2023, 05:30 PM | #2936 |
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As the second paragraph says, "I was biologically male". I trust that you can deduce that I still am. I mean, even with alchemy and the law of equivalent exchange, that doesn't change
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4th February 2023, 06:02 PM | #2937 |
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Hans - Thanks for sharing all that at #2933.
It's always interesting to hear from people with very different experiences and perspectives. ETA: This tweet raises an interesting point about mind/body dualism https://twitter.com/SecularOutpost/s...02630745415680 I don't think Ms Buttons is being entirely fair, but the metaphysical status of gender identity is a bit mysterious. Having never felt any sense of gender or sexual incongruence, my perspective is a bit like a 4th grader's take on sexual attraction. |
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5th February 2023, 06:47 AM | #2938 |
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Cheers, thanks for that. I've always wonder whether trans acting like you did actually existed. I assumed they did but having next to zero IRL experience with trans people I didn't know for sure. I had my hair cut by a ladyboy in Thailand once and when I lived right in the middle of a massive gay neighborhood (Davie Village, Vancouver) for 6 years, the trans community wasn't visible at all. Rumor has it that this one super gay neighbor I had, the one his roomates described as way "way too faggy" left town and was living as a woman in Toronto.
Oh and once an obviously trans street prostitute waved to me as I was sitting on my motorcycle at a stoplight. That's really about it. The trans issue, for me at least, exists solely on my computer screen |
5th February 2023, 07:09 AM | #2939 |
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I'd be interested in a legal take on this if we've got any British lawyers here:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/62794267.amp p.s. Ireland looks unstoppable this year. Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk |
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5th February 2023, 07:49 AM | #2940 |
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It's as the article states, there are exceptions allowed to maintain segregation by sex in sports to allow for "fair and safe competition"
We'd have to see their actual letter but I suspect they will be arguing that a blanket ban is a disproportionate (is that the right word?) action to achieve "fair and safe competition" rather than for example setting the level of testosterone in the blood as the test. The Equality and Human Rights Commission have made it clear that they do believe blanket bans are an appropriate measure:
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5th February 2023, 09:13 AM | #2941 |
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Your suspicions are correct. The letter reads, in part, “It is difficult to see how a blanket ban with no exceptions could be justified as necessary. Allowing a particular trans woman to play in the female category for contact rugby may not raise any issues in respect of fair competition or the safety of competitors, and if so her exclusion cannot be justified.”
I don't quite follow this logic, since the same could be said, ceteris paribus, about any blanket ban in sport (e.g. strict weight classes in wrestling or boxing, bans on doping, steroids, etc.). So long as the individual competitor in question isn't too near the tail of the performance curve (as most others will be, at an elite level) giving them some specific enhancement won't effect the overall fairness of the game. Folks like Julie Curtiss and Laurel Hubbard (from the OP) might well argue that their advanced age offsets many of the inherent advantages of male puberty, and no doubt they are at least partially correct. |
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5th February 2023, 09:33 AM | #2942 |
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5th February 2023, 01:51 PM | #2943 |
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Commentary here:
https://sex-matters.org/posts/update...n-only-sports/
Quote:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...15/section/195 The comparators are " average persons" of each sex, so a case-by-case approach looks hard to justify. |
5th February 2023, 04:20 PM | #2944 |
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LondonJohn - Does the assertion of a "valid lived identity" tell us anything about whether it is ethical or legal for RFU to "only permit players in the female category if the sex originally recorded at birth is female" in your view?
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5th February 2023, 05:01 PM | #2945 |
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Your midnight check-in on the petition reports 78,979 signatures, so 370 new signatures today. Ticking along quite nicely.
The new magic number is 284.1. |
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5th February 2023, 05:43 PM | #2946 |
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5th February 2023, 07:38 PM | #2947 |
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Haha "LJs (sic) rants"!! And you're being entirely disingenuous by completely avoiding the way that you - and many many other posters in this thread - have used terms such as*: "bloke in a dress" or "men LARPing at being women" or "men cosplaying at being women" or "Elliot Page is a mentally unwell person with a delusion which makes her believe she's a man" or "Denying the existence of trans women and calling them men is 100% proof of what I said" or "People born with a cock and balls are not women, and can never become women. They remain men" or "The Atheist knows some men who perform "woman"" or "I may not like men LARPing a cariacature (sic) of over-sexualised fantasy "woman", but they're perfectly free to do that" (NB: Some of the above are direct quotes; the others are very close paraphrases which capture the wording and the intent) Because, lionking, all of those insults (and all the rest that are in a similar vein) explicitly deny the identity of transgender people. They are all, in a word, transphobic. I know you've expressed ignorance of this fact not so long ago, and I guess I can understand why you (and others in this thread) might want to pretend/rationalise/deny wrt this issue. But I'm afraid the truth is right there in (virtual) black and white: a significant proportion (maybe even the majority) of people regularly posting in this thread have expressed explicitly transphobic points of view. * And these are all from the pretty recent past within this thread. Were I inclined to do a fuller search, I am highly confident that I would be able to reproduce a whole litany of similar types of transphobic comments, which were posted by a large number of regular contributors to this thread. |
5th February 2023, 07:40 PM | #2948 |
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5th February 2023, 07:46 PM | #2949 |
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BTW it's interesting - and revealing - to watch the usual suspects continuing to pretend that they don't understand what's meant by "valid lived identity".
Once again, I'll make it easier for the slower members of the group: simply swap the phrase "valid lived identity" for "identity that is not now considered to be a mental health disorder". Not sure why anyone would prefer that latter lengthier phrase rather than the shorter - and easily comprehensible - three-word phrase. No accounting for taste (or feigned ignorance), I guess.... |
5th February 2023, 11:30 PM | #2950 |
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Well done. You addressed me and quoted a range of statements which I did not make. Pretty sloppy even for you. But whatever, what is more important is you did not address in any way the post of mine you were supposedly responding to. This is what I said:
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And please don’t imagine you need to keep popping in with a range of insults showing, supposedly, how tough you are. I treat your posts as light amusement. |
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5th February 2023, 11:55 PM | #2951 |
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Meanwhile it is transphobic to quote a young woman who thanked God her parents prevented her from being mutilated.
"From ages 4-12 I wore boys’ clothes, played boy sports and rejected all thing ‘girly’. When my brother teased me for being a girl, I even said that when I got older I would ‘cut my boobs off’. I was not transgender, I just idolised my brother. Thank God my parents were sane,” the tweet said. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/son...FGNY764FTMB6I/ |
6th February 2023, 12:51 AM | #2952 |
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I felt something was missing.
This is one reply in the thread:
When I chose to have my breasts removed I was suicidal. That was said to be from gender dysphoria. I got my breasts removed and I didn’t feel any euphoria instead I felt empty like something was missing. The doctors should have never went ahead with the surgery. 8:16 AM · Feb 6, 2023 · 380.8K Views |
6th February 2023, 06:47 AM | #2953 |
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Did you make it clear why the validity of someone's lived identity doesn't take priority over biological reality in this particular case? Why, in other words, is it acceptable for RFU to pointedly fail to validate Ms Curtiss' lived identity? Is elite sport the only time and place where such validation is not required, in your view, or should females allowed to have their own spaces in other circumstances as well?
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6th February 2023, 07:37 AM | #2954 |
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I believe it was that elite sport is a 'performance' and it is therefore permissible to discriminate against transwomen for not matching the 'female athlete' role in the same way as it's acceptable to discriminate against somebody with the wrong characteristics for a role as an actor, for example.
Of course, in practice the UK Equality Act indicates it is acceptable to discriminate based on sex in several contexts in addition to sport. |
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6th February 2023, 07:51 AM | #2955 |
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I am getting to grips with the terminology.
Woman - a woman Man - a man Trans woman - a man Cis - an unconfused person Trans man - a drag queen Feminist - an angry woman Terf - a woman from Edinburgh with a lawn Nonbinary - prefers to use numbers Nicola Sturgeon - a very confused woman |
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6th February 2023, 10:12 AM | #2956 |
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Mind if I ask side question that may have been addressed in the previous 74 pages?. For the sake of medical emergencies, shouldn't Identity cards indicate that someone is Trans? I mean, if you're incapacitated in some way by accident or due to some other medical emergency, isn't it of value for the emergency responders and doctors to know?
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6th February 2023, 10:24 AM | #2957 | ||
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A while back (
If only the legislation were in place to facilitate it and I'd been able to self-ID as a "woman", the mandatory pick-rate would have been 20% lower for the same pay (women just can't heave as many slabs of butter and such like onto their pallets at once) and I might have stuck with it a bit longer.
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6th February 2023, 11:22 AM | #2958 |
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What I'm really trying to understand here is why the trump card of "valid lived identity" doesn't work (for LJ) when females are performing as scrum-halfs rather than, say, in any other social context like a traditional Korean spa or the Hampstead ponds. What makes elite sport exempt from the usual norms which require gender identity to be validated and affirmed?
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6th February 2023, 11:37 AM | #2959 |
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Oh, I understand that fine. But it doesn't answer the important questions. If transgender identity in the absence of gender dysphoria is not considered a mental health disorder, that still doesn't tell me what it is. So what is it? Perhaps more importantly, why does it deserve any accommodations? You have never answered these questions.
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6th February 2023, 12:07 PM | #2960 |
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It seems it's a special case where trans women are not women. If they were women, they'd compete in elite women's sport (if they were good enough).
Another special case, per Nicola Sturgeon, is when trans women have raped women; they're not women then either. If they were women, they'd be incarcerated in female prisons. So in summary, trans women aren't women. They can do plenty of the things women do. They should not be allowed to do anything a woman can do as a matter of policy. And this is according to LondonJohn and Nicola Sturgeon. (Does that wrap up this thread series? Only took six years abouts) |
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