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1st February 2023, 10:39 AM | #1841 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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1st February 2023, 10:52 AM | #1842 |
No Punting
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They value human life. Just their own infinitely more than anyone they see as a remotely plausible threat, being cowardly in the face of danger, and playing it safe by blasting away. (I don't think most of these cases are cops deciding to play executioner. They for sure do this but in those cases they tend to be way more neat about not getting caught) It's telling when they criticize the idea of social workers attending to mental health crises because the workers could get hurt or killed. The idea that a person might be willing to put their life on the line for a stranger in distress is that alien to them. |
1st February 2023, 12:50 PM | #1843 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That's not an exaggeration. Police have been getting training to kill as "warrior cops" for decades, paid for by our tax dollars. https://www.insider.com/bulletproof-...to-kill-2020-6 https://newrepublic.com/article/1416...ior-philosophy https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-industry.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...killology.html |
1st February 2023, 12:55 PM | #1844 |
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1st February 2023, 12:58 PM | #1845 |
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The article said they did tase him, but to no effect. Possibly because of bulky clothing?
ETA: LAPD says tased twice. Still, three cops with bog standard riot shields, they should be amply protected against throwing a butcher knife (which they said they "feared", not that he actually did). I'd like to try out the argument that I "feared" a cop was going to shoot me, so I had to kill him. Pretty sure they'd go "oh, well we see your point". |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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1st February 2023, 01:20 PM | #1846 |
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1st February 2023, 03:17 PM | #1847 |
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We'll have to wait to see what happens with the bodycam on this one. Per NBC:
Quote:
Quote:
To sum a lot of it up, the cops said they encountered Frasure (the victim) and his father behind the building, Frasure refused to get out of the vehicle, the van backed up and hit a tree, then drove forward quickly so the cops shot at the van a bunch, killing the son. I doubt the Chief is making it all up, but something seems a bit off. |
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1st February 2023, 04:45 PM | #1848 |
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From the earlier link:
Quote:
Two stories here. One is supposed trigger happy cops. The other is that this man allegedly attempted to murder someone by stabbing them. The cops appear to have overreacted. On the other hand, don't go around stabbing people then threatening police with the same weapon! Also, this guy jumped out of his chair and ran at the person he stabbed. I do think the cops overreacted, from what little I've seen, but I reserve final judgment for now. Can't hurt. Finally, I wonder if the stabbing victim (collapsed lung, internal bleeding) gives a **** that this man was shot? He's probably mentally disturbed. Actually that's an assumption. He could just be a criminal ******* |
2nd February 2023, 01:15 AM | #1849 |
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2nd February 2023, 01:40 AM | #1850 |
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Ehh, "a bit strange" would still fit even in that case, though? It's not at all proof of something bad, just unusual in a way that invites a bit more investigation. Similarly, panicking when clearly trigger happy police show up like that isn't proof of wrongdoing, but it does invite questions (including ones about said police behavior, both past and present).
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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2nd February 2023, 07:17 AM | #1851 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Moličre) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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2nd February 2023, 08:36 AM | #1852 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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2nd February 2023, 08:44 AM | #1853 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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2nd February 2023, 12:30 PM | #1854 |
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Absolutely, I'm sure we've all worked a late shift in our life and came home with some energy to burn that led to getting the house cleaned up or something like that. In this case though they're talking about moving things out of an apartment in an apartment building, which seems like it would be common courtesy to not do it at 1 a.m. since people are generally sleeping.
I get it, though. Sometimes that's not an option, it has to be done when you have the people to do it at a time that works for everyone. I'm more interested to see what the bodycam shows as far as if the police escalated the situation for no reason or if the people moving the stuff out panicked and escalate it. |
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2nd February 2023, 01:06 PM | #1855 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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3rd February 2023, 05:42 PM | #1856 |
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Indeed, I found this 2019 story from CNN about the struggle to get the bodycam footage from the 2016 killing of Tony Timpa by Dallas police, a case that has eerie parallels with the George Floyd killing, but for some strange reason nobody knows about Tony Timpa, he doesn't even have his own wikipedia page, I wonder why...
Quote:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/u...ath/index.html The above also goes part way to refuting the claim I've seen around that the 'mainstream' media buries stories like this that contradict 'The Narrative' (e.g. White Cops hunt Blacks.) |
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"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!" 'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail Everybody gets it wrong sometimes... |
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5th February 2023, 01:23 AM | #1857 |
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Quote:
Never EVER call the police if you need help especially if it has to do with mental health. They are in no way equipped to handle the situation and will take any and all deviation from normalcy as a threat to their life and will escalate accordingly. |
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5th February 2023, 04:05 AM | #1858 |
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I've also been hunting for something that cropped up in my newsfeed at work a few weeks ago but I've not been able to track down, supposedly the victim called 911 because they had either broken down or had a flat tire and needed assistance. During the call the victim mentioned they were a geology student and had things in the car that could be misinterpreted as weapons (geology hammers, etc). The victim was instructed to drop the items outside the car when the cops arrived. When the cops did arrive the victim was shot dead, in the article the parents were fighting to get the bodycam footage. What caught my eye is that both victim and the police who shot him were white. |
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"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!" 'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail Everybody gets it wrong sometimes... |
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5th February 2023, 04:53 AM | #1859 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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5th February 2023, 06:08 AM | #1860 |
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"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker |
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5th February 2023, 10:02 AM | #1861 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The speed at which US cops can be sacked is surprising. It is so fast that it is hard to see how there is any due process.
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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5th February 2023, 02:05 PM | #1862 |
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Never mind
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5th February 2023, 03:32 PM | #1863 |
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Depends on where. It's usually not easy. There are something like 18,000 independent police and sheriffs' departments the U.S., and a large majority, particularly in big cities, are covered by union contracts. In some places, cops have been fired for obvious misconduct, and after a lengthy and expensive appeals process, the union has gotten them reinstated. I would guess -- without evidence -- that union contracts in the South, which is notoriously anti-union, have fewer protections than they might in NYC or Boston.
But it's hard to imagine a place where getting charged with murder wouldn't be grounds for termination. That's not quite the same as, say, abusing sick leave. Some background: https://news.yahoo.com/swift-firing-...194109128.html https://www.businessinsider.com/poli...rs-2020-6?op=1 |
6th February 2023, 02:44 AM | #1864 |
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6th February 2023, 09:18 AM | #1865 |
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contradictory orders
Regarding the Tyre Nichols case, I was able to read the first line to a story: “A [New York] Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols.” I do not have a subscription to the NYT, however. This is a little reminiscent of the Daniel Shipman incident, and it also raises the question of how one is supposed to comply.
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6th February 2023, 09:26 AM | #1866 |
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Daniel Shaver and others, too. Police don't have any kind of standard engaging procedure, which kind of makes sense, given the chaos of even a clean arrest. Just get the suspect under control however it strikes you. One guy screams "hands up!", another "on the ground!". You can't win, can't draw, but for damn sure can lose.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2023, 09:30 AM | #1867 | |||
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
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They are not supposed to comply. They are supposed to give the cops the excuse to beat the crap out of them or shoot them.
Reminds me of this exchange: James Bond: "You expect me to talk?" Goldfinger: "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"
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Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities. When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]." |
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6th February 2023, 10:49 AM | #1868 | |||
No Punting
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I don't know if this were mentioned in this thread but worth repeating.
Cops raid semi-obscure rapper Afroman's house. Afroman has cameras recording the raid. Afroman clowns on the police by making several songs with videos including video from the raid.
Raid was in part for kidnapping and there has been nothing come out to support that. Which is wild because given how stupid the cops look in this raid you'd assume they'd be out there screaming about any at all credible basis for such a warrant... |
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6th February 2023, 11:07 AM | #1869 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Broken link yo.
Here's the whole story featuring the video "Will You Help Me Repair My Door?" Deserves it's own thread, tbh. Cops cut off his home security video. https://www.vice.com/en/article/7k83...cops-interview |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2023, 11:39 AM | #1870 |
Penultimate Amazing
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principles of engagement
Your point about every situation being different is well taken. However, I have to wonder whether or not police could be trained in certain principles to alleviate the problem, with the understanding that there might be exceptions.
Let me engage in a bit of thinking out loud. One such principle could be that only one officer gives commands. Another might be that the officer should order the person being taken into custody to announce what he will do next. So if two orders ("put up your hands" and "lie down") are given, the person would announce one of the two and then presumably perform it. This might minimize surprises. |
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6th February 2023, 11:59 AM | #1871 |
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That's a lot to expect every citizen in this country to understand. This a problem with the police, not with the people being arrested. They are the ones barking commands that would be impossible, and they should have to figure it out or risk going to prison for killing someone for no reason.
The rest of the civilized world seems to do this a zillion times better than the US. Is it because the rest of the world is smarter? They're able to handle more commands? Or, realistically, is it because their police are properly trained, generally unarmed, and don't think of themselves as the end all? |
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“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
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6th February 2023, 12:09 PM | #1872 |
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I think that's a great idea, and am a little surprised it's not standard protocol. Confronting a suspect, the ranking officer or first on the scene declares themselves quarterback. They do the talking, others do the acting. It would surely get complicated with multiple suspects, but we see so many with one suspect that it should be worthwhile to adopt.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2023, 12:17 PM | #1873 |
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Fair point, but my experience is that it actually works. I've had cops who thought I was a "bad guy" shouting at me, and I have literally said in a loud voice with hands raised "I'm going to slowly lift my shirt and show no weapons...I'm going to reach in my pocket for my ID" and that kind of stuff. They kept pointing at me but calmed down fairly quick.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2023, 12:34 PM | #1874 |
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That's great, if you have the presence of mind to do it, but a driver who is drunk or confused or even belligerent doesn't deserve to get stomped or killed. And if the cop responds "Shut up! Don't talk!" you're kinda screwed. And I would not be reaching for my waistband or lifting my shirt under any circumstances. Maybe shouting "What do you want me to do?" would get them to focus on one thing at a time. Or maybe not. Example no. 1: Daniel Shaver was just trying to keep his shorts up. https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opini...ano/index.html |
6th February 2023, 01:08 PM | #1875 |
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Yeah, the burden shouldn't always be on the suspect to take control. Sometimes it will work, sometimes not. It may have worked for me in the instance I am thinking of because I was bigger and older than the cops (who kind of thought I was going to shoot them) and I used my loud and clear commanding "dad voice". One cop giving the suspect orders and other cops shutting up should really be SOP though.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2023, 06:05 PM | #1876 |
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The idea of having only one cop giving the instructions seems pretty good. The second idea seems weaker and more prone to creating problems.
It seems so self evident that your first point makes sense that one wonders how a group of police would not behave that way organically. Why would I tell a suspect to put up his hands if I just heard another officer telling the same suspect to put his hands behind his back, or somesuch?. |
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7th February 2023, 04:43 AM | #1877 |
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clear and concise
"The difficulty in assessing intent is not limited to cases of concealed weapons. After shooting an armed suspect who had recently shot at the police, officers held the severely injured suspect at gunpoint. With the gun still visible in the suspect’s hand, one officer ordered the suspect not to move, while a second officer ordered the suspect to “show me your hands!” When the suspect moved his hand (still holding the gun), the second officer shot at him." Force Science
Specifically with respect to Mr. Nichols the police gave 71 commands in 13 minutes. A private training company, Lexipol, advised, "Commands should be clear and concise. And commands should be given by one officer only." |
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It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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7th February 2023, 06:08 AM | #1878 |
Lackey
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Senior officials ordered destruction of Vallejo police shooting evidence
....“Per City Attorney this case has been approved for disposal,” she wrote in the file’s evidence log at 2:31 p.m. “Final disposition: Destroyed.”It is endemic. ETA: And to top it all: ...Among the items to have been spared from the purge were a few hundred dollars kept for “departmental use” from the victims, including $132.30 that belonged to Romero.... |
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7th February 2023, 07:08 AM | #1879 |
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7th February 2023, 07:14 AM | #1880 |
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It's kind of horrifying that you're able to state it that weakly. The police should always assume the burden of taking control, and do it appropriately. Many, if not all, of these utterly unjustifiable killings stem from the incompetence to do so of the officers on the scene. They then use lethal force to resolve a situation they themselves have created.
Dave |
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