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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 1st February 2023, 10:39 AM   #1841
Thermal
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
But if they can say they feared for their life, they get to shoot the suspect! It's more fun that way!
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There is a lot of things they could do if they weren't conditioned to meet any conceivable danger with lethal force.
Tru deez. It's sickening. Valuing human life needs to be a little higher on these guys' priority list. Let the courts dole out punishment.
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Old 1st February 2023, 10:52 AM   #1842
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Tru deez. It's sickening. Valuing human life needs to be a little higher on these guys' priority list. Let the courts dole out punishment.


They value human life. Just their own infinitely more than anyone they see as a remotely plausible threat, being cowardly in the face of danger, and playing it safe by blasting away.

(I don't think most of these cases are cops deciding to play executioner. They for sure do this but in those cases they tend to be way more neat about not getting caught)

It's telling when they criticize the idea of social workers attending to mental health crises because the workers could get hurt or killed. The idea that a person might be willing to put their life on the line for a stranger in distress is that alien to them.
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Old 1st February 2023, 12:50 PM   #1843
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There is a lot of things they could do if they weren't conditioned to meet any conceivable danger with lethal force.

That's not an exaggeration. Police have been getting training to kill as "warrior cops" for decades, paid for by our tax dollars.
https://www.insider.com/bulletproof-...to-kill-2020-6
https://newrepublic.com/article/1416...ior-philosophy
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-industry.html
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...killology.html
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Old 1st February 2023, 12:55 PM   #1844
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I saw a medieval approach used by German police a while back for dealing with knife weilding suspects (medieval in the good sense this time): literal chain mail, protecting the cop from a bladed weapon.

For the US, don't they keep riot shields in the trunk of the cruisers? Seems like they could just walk up and, you know, knock the suspect over.
Yeah, or they could've tased him from behind. But that might've raised the risks to the officers from 0 to very very slight, and thats what the police union will be saying in there defense.
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Old 1st February 2023, 12:58 PM   #1845
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah, or they could've tased him from behind. But that might've raised the risks to the officers from 0 to very very slight, and thats what the police union will be saying in there defense.
The article said they did tase him, but to no effect. Possibly because of bulky clothing?

ETA: LAPD says tased twice. Still, three cops with bog standard riot shields, they should be amply protected against throwing a butcher knife (which they said they "feared", not that he actually did).

I'd like to try out the argument that I "feared" a cop was going to shoot me, so I had to kill him. Pretty sure they'd go "oh, well we see your point".
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Last edited by Thermal; 1st February 2023 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 1st February 2023, 01:20 PM   #1846
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The article said they did tase him, but to no effect. Possibly because of bulky clothing?

ETA: LAPD says tased twice. Still, three cops with bog standard riot shields, they should be amply protected against throwing a butcher knife (which they said they "feared", not that he actually did).

I'd like to try out the argument that I "feared" a cop was going to shoot me, so I had to kill him. Pretty sure they'd go "oh, well we see your point".
Ahh, missed that. A third or fourth try was asking too much I guess.
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Old 1st February 2023, 03:17 PM   #1847
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We'll have to wait to see what happens with the bodycam on this one. Per NBC:

Quote:
An investigation is underway after a 28-year-old Ohio man died Tuesday, one day after he was shot by police who believed he was a burglary suspect, as his family says he was cleaning out his late grandmother's home.
There are a few things that are a little weird.

Quote:
...officers responded to an apartment building in the 300 block of Durrell Avenue at shortly before 1 a.m. on a report of two to three people attempting to break into a residence.
Like I said, a bit strange to clean out a place at 1 a.m., especially an apartment building.

To sum a lot of it up, the cops said they encountered Frasure (the victim) and his father behind the building, Frasure refused to get out of the vehicle, the van backed up and hit a tree, then drove forward quickly so the cops shot at the van a bunch, killing the son.

I doubt the Chief is making it all up, but something seems a bit off.
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Old 1st February 2023, 04:45 PM   #1848
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From the earlier link:

Quote:
Responding officers found a victim suffering from “a life-threatening stab wound resulting in a collapsed lung and internal bleeding,” the statement said.

The victim described the attacker as a black man in a wheelchair who “dismounted the wheelchair, ran to the victim without provocation, and stabbed him in the side of the chest with a 12-inch butcher knife” and then fled the scene in his wheelchair, Department said.

Two stories here. One is supposed trigger happy cops. The other is that this man allegedly attempted to murder someone by stabbing them.

The cops appear to have overreacted. On the other hand, don't go around stabbing people then threatening police with the same weapon!

Also, this guy jumped out of his chair and ran at the person he stabbed.

I do think the cops overreacted, from what little I've seen, but I reserve final judgment for now. Can't hurt.

Finally, I wonder if the stabbing victim (collapsed lung, internal bleeding) gives a **** that this man was shot?

He's probably mentally disturbed. Actually that's an assumption. He could just be a criminal *******

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Old 2nd February 2023, 01:15 AM   #1849
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
We'll have to wait to see what happens with the bodycam on this one. Per NBC:



There are a few things that are a little weird.



Like I said, a bit strange to clean out a place at 1 a.m., especially an apartment building.

To sum a lot of it up, the cops said they encountered Frasure (the victim) and his father behind the building, Frasure refused to get out of the vehicle, the van backed up and hit a tree, then drove forward quickly so the cops shot at the van a bunch, killing the son.

I doubt the Chief is making it all up, but something seems a bit off.
Not necessarily, when I worked evening shifts in Tesco, I'd mostly do housework when I came home, around midnight.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 01:40 AM   #1850
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Not necessarily, when I worked evening shifts in Tesco, I'd mostly do housework when I came home, around midnight.
Ehh, "a bit strange" would still fit even in that case, though? It's not at all proof of something bad, just unusual in a way that invites a bit more investigation. Similarly, panicking when clearly trigger happy police show up like that isn't proof of wrongdoing, but it does invite questions (including ones about said police behavior, both past and present).
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Old 2nd February 2023, 07:17 AM   #1851
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Ehh, "a bit strange" would still fit even in that case, though? It's not at all proof of something bad, just unusual in a way that invites a bit more investigation. Similarly, panicking when clearly trigger happy police show up like that isn't proof of wrongdoing, but it does invite questions (including ones about said police behavior, both past and present).
It seems like another example of someone afraid the police will kill them, and the police killing them to correct the mistake.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 08:36 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Here's a question: What kind of person commits murder while he's wearing a camera that records it? All five of these guys thought they were untouchable.
One who believes there will be no adverse consequences to them from murder, a common belief in USAian police and one quite well supported by previous inaction.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 08:44 AM   #1853
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Oh you can **** right off with your semantic ********. If you shoot someone and they don't immediately die at the scene but hours or days later at the hospital you are still on the hook for killing the person by shooting them.

If the cause of death is the beating they did indeed beat him to death even if he didn't die *while* the beating was taking place.
Indeed.
I wondered when the first of our resident murder-apologists would turn up.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 12:30 PM   #1854
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Not necessarily, when I worked evening shifts in Tesco, I'd mostly do housework when I came home, around midnight.
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Ehh, "a bit strange" would still fit even in that case, though? It's not at all proof of something bad, just unusual in a way that invites a bit more investigation. Similarly, panicking when clearly trigger happy police show up like that isn't proof of wrongdoing, but it does invite questions (including ones about said police behavior, both past and present).
Absolutely, I'm sure we've all worked a late shift in our life and came home with some energy to burn that led to getting the house cleaned up or something like that. In this case though they're talking about moving things out of an apartment in an apartment building, which seems like it would be common courtesy to not do it at 1 a.m. since people are generally sleeping.

I get it, though. Sometimes that's not an option, it has to be done when you have the people to do it at a time that works for everyone. I'm more interested to see what the bodycam shows as far as if the police escalated the situation for no reason or if the people moving the stuff out panicked and escalate it.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 01:06 PM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without the video, there would have been no demonstrations and no prosecution, and Chauvin would still be on the street. The police story would have been the only one anybody would hear: a drug-addled ex-felon had a heart attack while resisting arrest. Same story in Memphis without the videos. What's making the difference is video evidence, not demonstrations.
Yup. To paraphrase Will Smith...

"Police violence isn't getting worse, its getting filmed"
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Old 3rd February 2023, 05:42 PM   #1856
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yup. To paraphrase Will Smith...

"Police violence isn't getting worse, its getting filmed"

Indeed, I found this 2019 story from CNN about the struggle to get the bodycam footage from the 2016 killing of Tony Timpa by Dallas police, a case that has eerie parallels with the George Floyd killing, but for some strange reason nobody knows about Tony Timpa, he doesn't even have his own wikipedia page, I wonder why...


Quote:
The body camera footage tells the story: Tony Timpa was struggling, begging Dallas police officers who were holding him in a controversial position to let him go.

Within minutes he had stopped breathing, while officers joked that he had fallen asleep, according to the footage first obtained from the police department by The Dallas Morning News after a nearly three-year battle for its release – part of the newspaper’s investigation into the August 2016 death of the 32-year-old man.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/u...ath/index.html


The above also goes part way to refuting the claim I've seen around that the 'mainstream' media buries stories like this that contradict 'The Narrative' (e.g. White Cops hunt Blacks.)
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Old 5th February 2023, 01:23 AM   #1857
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Quote:
According to The Dallas Morning News, Timpa was in the parking lot of a Dallas porn store when he called police, telling a dispatcher he suffered from schizophrenia and depression. He told the dispatcher he was not taking his medication.
He called for help. They responded by killing him.

Never EVER call the police if you need help especially if it has to do with mental health. They are in no way equipped to handle the situation and will take any and all deviation from normalcy as a threat to their life and will escalate accordingly.
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Old 5th February 2023, 04:05 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
He called for help. They responded by killing him.

Never EVER call the police if you need help especially if it has to do with mental health. They are in no way equipped to handle the situation and will take any and all deviation from normalcy as a threat to their life and will escalate accordingly.

I've also been hunting for something that cropped up in my newsfeed at work a few weeks ago but I've not been able to track down, supposedly the victim called 911 because they had either broken down or had a flat tire and needed assistance. During the call the victim mentioned they were a geology student and had things in the car that could be misinterpreted as weapons (geology hammers, etc).


The victim was instructed to drop the items outside the car when the cops arrived.


When the cops did arrive the victim was shot dead, in the article the parents were fighting to get the bodycam footage.


What caught my eye is that both victim and the police who shot him were white.
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Old 5th February 2023, 04:53 AM   #1859
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Indeed, I found this 2019 story from CNN about the struggle to get the bodycam footage from the 2016 killing of Tony Timpa by Dallas police, a case that has eerie parallels with the George Floyd killing, but for some strange reason nobody knows about Tony Timpa, he doesn't even have his own wikipedia page, I wonder why...

….snip…)
No you don’t.
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Old 5th February 2023, 06:08 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I've also been hunting for something that cropped up in my newsfeed at work a few weeks ago but I've not been able to track down, supposedly the victim called 911 because they had either broken down or had a flat tire and needed assistance. During the call the victim mentioned they were a geology student and had things in the car that could be misinterpreted as weapons (geology hammers, etc).
You're probably thinking of the shooting of Christian Glass. See post 1631 in this thread.

There's also a wiki page.
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Old 5th February 2023, 10:02 AM   #1861
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The speed at which US cops can be sacked is surprising. It is so fast that it is hard to see how there is any due process.
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Old 5th February 2023, 02:05 PM   #1862
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Never mind

Last edited by PitPat; 5th February 2023 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Got those two cases confused.
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Old 5th February 2023, 03:32 PM   #1863
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The speed at which US cops can be sacked is surprising. It is so fast that it is hard to see how there is any due process.
Depends on where. It's usually not easy. There are something like 18,000 independent police and sheriffs' departments the U.S., and a large majority, particularly in big cities, are covered by union contracts. In some places, cops have been fired for obvious misconduct, and after a lengthy and expensive appeals process, the union has gotten them reinstated. I would guess -- without evidence -- that union contracts in the South, which is notoriously anti-union, have fewer protections than they might in NYC or Boston.

But it's hard to imagine a place where getting charged with murder wouldn't be grounds for termination. That's not quite the same as, say, abusing sick leave.

Some background:
https://news.yahoo.com/swift-firing-...194109128.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/poli...rs-2020-6?op=1
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Old 6th February 2023, 02:44 AM   #1864
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Depends on where. It's usually not easy. There are something like 18,000 independent police and sheriffs' departments the U.S., and a large majority, particularly in big cities, are covered by union contracts. In some places, cops have been fired for obvious misconduct, and after a lengthy and expensive appeals process, the union has gotten them reinstated. I would guess -- without evidence -- that union contracts in the South, which is notoriously anti-union, have fewer protections than they might in NYC or Boston.

But it's hard to imagine a place where getting charged with murder wouldn't be grounds for termination. That's not quite the same as, say, abusing sick leave.

Some background:
https://news.yahoo.com/swift-firing-...194109128.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/poli...rs-2020-6?op=1
I'm guessing that, like in Thatcher's Britain, the police union is the only one on good terms with the government. Mainly because it's perfectly happy to see its members break other trades union.
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Old 6th February 2023, 09:18 AM   #1865
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contradictory orders

Regarding the Tyre Nichols case, I was able to read the first line to a story: “A [New York] Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols.” I do not have a subscription to the NYT, however. This is a little reminiscent of the Daniel Shipman incident, and it also raises the question of how one is supposed to comply.
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Old 6th February 2023, 09:26 AM   #1866
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Regarding the Tyre Nichols case, I was able to read the first line to a story: “A [New York] Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols.” I do not have a subscription to the NYT, however. This is a little reminiscent of the Daniel Shipman incident, and it also raises the question of how one is supposed to comply.
Daniel Shaver and others, too. Police don't have any kind of standard engaging procedure, which kind of makes sense, given the chaos of even a clean arrest. Just get the suspect under control however it strikes you. One guy screams "hands up!", another "on the ground!". You can't win, can't draw, but for damn sure can lose.
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Old 6th February 2023, 09:30 AM   #1867
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Regarding the Tyre Nichols case, I was able to read the first line to a story: “A [New York] Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols.” I do not have a subscription to the NYT, however. This is a little reminiscent of the Daniel Shipman incident, and it also raises the question of how one is supposed to comply.
They are not supposed to comply. They are supposed to give the cops the excuse to beat the crap out of them or shoot them.

Reminds me of this exchange:

James Bond: "You expect me to talk?"

Goldfinger: "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

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Old 6th February 2023, 10:49 AM   #1868
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I don't know if this were mentioned in this thread but worth repeating.

Cops raid semi-obscure rapper Afroman's house. Afroman has cameras recording the raid. Afroman clowns on the police by making several songs with videos including video from the raid.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Raid was in part for kidnapping and there has been nothing come out to support that. Which is wild because given how stupid the cops look in this raid you'd assume they'd be out there screaming about any at all credible basis for such a warrant...
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Old 6th February 2023, 11:07 AM   #1869
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Broken link yo.

Here's the whole story featuring the video "Will You Help Me Repair My Door?"

Deserves it's own thread, tbh. Cops cut off his home security video.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/7k83...cops-interview
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Old 6th February 2023, 11:39 AM   #1870
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principles of engagement

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Daniel Shaver and others, too. Police don't have any kind of standard engaging procedure, which kind of makes sense, given the chaos of even a clean arrest. Just get the suspect under control however it strikes you. One guy screams "hands up!", another "on the ground!". You can't win, can't draw, but for damn sure can lose.
Your point about every situation being different is well taken. However, I have to wonder whether or not police could be trained in certain principles to alleviate the problem, with the understanding that there might be exceptions.

Let me engage in a bit of thinking out loud. One such principle could be that only one officer gives commands. Another might be that the officer should order the person being taken into custody to announce what he will do next. So if two orders ("put up your hands" and "lie down") are given, the person would announce one of the two and then presumably perform it. This might minimize surprises.
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Old 6th February 2023, 11:59 AM   #1871
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Another might be that the officer should order the person being taken into custody to announce what he will do next. So if two orders ("put up your hands" and "lie down") are given, the person would announce one of the two and then presumably perform it. This might minimize surprises.
That's a lot to expect every citizen in this country to understand. This a problem with the police, not with the people being arrested. They are the ones barking commands that would be impossible, and they should have to figure it out or risk going to prison for killing someone for no reason.

The rest of the civilized world seems to do this a zillion times better than the US. Is it because the rest of the world is smarter? They're able to handle more commands? Or, realistically, is it because their police are properly trained, generally unarmed, and don't think of themselves as the end all?
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Old 6th February 2023, 12:09 PM   #1872
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Your point about every situation being different is well taken. However, I have to wonder whether or not police could be trained in certain principles to alleviate the problem, with the understanding that there might be exceptions.

Let me engage in a bit of thinking out loud. One such principle could be that only one officer gives commands. Another might be that the officer should order the person being taken into custody to announce what he will do next. So if two orders ("put up your hands" and "lie down") are given, the person would announce one of the two and then presumably perform it. This might minimize surprises.
I think that's a great idea, and am a little surprised it's not standard protocol. Confronting a suspect, the ranking officer or first on the scene declares themselves quarterback. They do the talking, others do the acting. It would surely get complicated with multiple suspects, but we see so many with one suspect that it should be worthwhile to adopt.
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Old 6th February 2023, 12:17 PM   #1873
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's a lot to expect every citizen in this country to understand. This a problem with the police, not with the people being arrested. They are the ones barking commands that would be impossible, and they should have to figure it out or risk going to prison for killing someone for no reason
Fair point, but my experience is that it actually works. I've had cops who thought I was a "bad guy" shouting at me, and I have literally said in a loud voice with hands raised "I'm going to slowly lift my shirt and show no weapons...I'm going to reach in my pocket for my ID" and that kind of stuff. They kept pointing at me but calmed down fairly quick.
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Old 6th February 2023, 12:34 PM   #1874
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair point, but my experience is that it actually works. I've had cops who thought I was a "bad guy" shouting at me, and I have literally said in a loud voice with hands raised "I'm going to slowly lift my shirt and show no weapons...I'm going to reach in my pocket for my ID" and that kind of stuff. They kept pointing at me but calmed down fairly quick.

That's great, if you have the presence of mind to do it, but a driver who is drunk or confused or even belligerent doesn't deserve to get stomped or killed. And if the cop responds "Shut up! Don't talk!" you're kinda screwed. And I would not be reaching for my waistband or lifting my shirt under any circumstances. Maybe shouting "What do you want me to do?" would get them to focus on one thing at a time.

Or maybe not. Example no. 1: Daniel Shaver was just trying to keep his shorts up.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opini...ano/index.html

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Old 6th February 2023, 01:08 PM   #1875
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's great, if you have the presence of mind to do it, but a driver who is drunk or confused or even belligerent doesn't deserve to get stomped or killed. And if the cop responds "Shut up! Don't talk!" you're kinda screwed. And I would not be reaching for my waistband or lifting my shirt under any circumstances. Maybe shouting "What do you want me to do?" would get them to focus on one thing at a time.

Or maybe not. Example no. 1: Daniel Shaver was just trying to keep his shorts up.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/opini...ano/index.html
Yeah, the burden shouldn't always be on the suspect to take control. Sometimes it will work, sometimes not. It may have worked for me in the instance I am thinking of because I was bigger and older than the cops (who kind of thought I was going to shoot them) and I used my loud and clear commanding "dad voice". One cop giving the suspect orders and other cops shutting up should really be SOP though.
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Old 6th February 2023, 06:05 PM   #1876
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Your point about every situation being different is well taken. However, I have to wonder whether or not police could be trained in certain principles to alleviate the problem, with the understanding that there might be exceptions.

Let me engage in a bit of thinking out loud. One such principle could be that only one officer gives commands. Another might be that the officer should order the person being taken into custody to announce what he will do next. So if two orders ("put up your hands" and "lie down") are given, the person would announce one of the two and then presumably perform it. This might minimize surprises.
The idea of having only one cop giving the instructions seems pretty good. The second idea seems weaker and more prone to creating problems.

It seems so self evident that your first point makes sense that one wonders how a group of police would not behave that way organically. Why would I tell a suspect to put up his hands if I just heard another officer telling the same suspect to put his hands behind his back, or somesuch?.
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Old 7th February 2023, 04:43 AM   #1877
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clear and concise

"The difficulty in assessing intent is not limited to cases of concealed weapons. After shooting an armed suspect who had recently shot at the police, officers held the severely injured suspect at gunpoint. With the gun still visible in the suspect’s hand, one officer ordered the suspect not to move, while a second officer ordered the suspect to “show me your hands!” When the suspect moved his hand (still holding the gun), the second officer shot at him." Force Science

Specifically with respect to Mr. Nichols the police gave 71 commands in 13 minutes. A private training company, Lexipol, advised, "Commands should be clear and concise. And commands should be given by one officer only."
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Old 7th February 2023, 06:08 AM   #1878
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Senior officials ordered destruction of Vallejo police shooting evidence
....“Per City Attorney this case has been approved for disposal,” she wrote in the file’s evidence log at 2:31 p.m. “Final disposition: Destroyed.”

Over the next several days, Encarnacion would empty box after box of evidence of police shootings into a large city dumpster.

In January 2021, officials for the city of Vallejo intentionally — and with approval from a senior attorney for the city — destroyed key evidence in multiple police killings and one non-fatal shooting, documents obtained in a public records lawsuit filed by Open Vallejo show. The city destroyed the records although many were set to be disclosed under California transparency laws — a potential crime, according to a motion filed by this newsroom last month. ....
It is endemic.


ETA: And to top it all:

...Among the items to have been spared from the purge were a few hundred dollars kept for “departmental use” from the victims, including $132.30 that belonged to Romero....
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Old 7th February 2023, 07:08 AM   #1879
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The idea of having only one cop giving the instructions seems pretty good. The second idea seems weaker and more prone to creating problems.

It seems so self evident that your first point makes sense that one wonders how a group of police would not behave that way organically. Why would I tell a suspect to put up his hands if I just heard another officer telling the same suspect to put his hands behind his back, or somesuch?.
Well, because then you can say they were non-compliant no matter what they do. It's like yelling "Stop resisting!" whether they are or not.

The trouble with pointing out the confusion and contradiction, is that these are features for police, not flaws.
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Old 7th February 2023, 07:14 AM   #1880
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, the burden shouldn't always be on the suspect to take control.
It's kind of horrifying that you're able to state it that weakly. The police should always assume the burden of taking control, and do it appropriately. Many, if not all, of these utterly unjustifiable killings stem from the incompetence to do so of the officers on the scene. They then use lethal force to resolve a situation they themselves have created.

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