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Old 1st February 2023, 02:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
This discussion with Emre is, frankly, closer to a discussion of the abilities and powers of the characters in a game of Warcraft, or Dungeons and Dragons. It's not even "religion" any more.
Emre, it seems, has a rather unique, perhaps even singular, take on his professed religion of Islam. Perhaps viewing it as a discussion of Emreism would keep you a little more on track.
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Old 1st February 2023, 03:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The Chinese belief was in five elements: water, metal, fire, earth, and

WOOD.

What'll we call the djin of wood?
Buzz Lightyear
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Old 1st February 2023, 05:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Emre, it seems, has a rather unique, perhaps even singular, take on his professed religion of Islam. Perhaps viewing it as a discussion of Emreism would keep you a little more on track.
D&D makes more sense.
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Old 1st February 2023, 08:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
What'll we call the djin of wood?
A "**********"?
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Old 2nd February 2023, 02:12 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The Chinese belief was in five elements: water, metal, fire, earth, and

WOOD.

What'll we call the djin of wood?

Henry Crun.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 02:23 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Henry Crun.
I got that.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 03:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The Chinese belief was in five elements: water, metal, fire, earth, and

WOOD.

What'll we call the djin of wood?
An Oregonian, aka Sasquatch
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Old 2nd February 2023, 05:55 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The cells in your body are constantly renewing. Or your body is being renewed as the pieces of you fall to the ground (your fingernails or the first teeth that fall out). So the old dead body parts no longer belong to you.
That doesn't even begin to answer my question. Do our dead bodies get poofed into this new universe of yours and revived post mortem?

Because, let me tell you, I've been to a fair few wakes in my day and I've never seen the deceased disappear, not once.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 11:48 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I got that.

The djin of cardboard and string would be Bluebottle.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 12:10 PM   #50
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Saying that anything sentient is made of fire or air, exposes a sordidly egregious lack of knowledge of Chemistry and the Periodic Table and science altogether.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 04:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
That doesn't even begin to answer my question. Do our dead bodies get poofed into this new universe of yours and revived post mortem?

Because, let me tell you, I've been to a fair few wakes in my day and I've never seen the deceased disappear, not once.
Bodies like your old teeth. It has no connection to your living body.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 04:08 PM   #52
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By the way, just because jinn are created from fire does not make them like fire. Just as our bodies created from mud/clay do not resemble earth.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 04:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
By the way, just because jinn are created from fire does not make them like fire. Just as our bodies created from mud/clay do not resemble earth.

No... living beings are not created... let alone from mud or clay or fire.

Only ones who are abjectly benighted about Chemistry and Biology and REALITY believe this codswallop... like camel caravan pillagers from 1400 years ago....


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Old 2nd February 2023, 05:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
By the way, just because jinn are created from fire does not make them like fire. Just as our bodies created from mud/clay do not resemble earth.
I don't know 'bout you, but I ain't made of no mud, blood.

My mama done made me in her lady-belly, as the good lord intenid, hallyloojeh!. No clay required, no sir, not a speck.

A hunnerd p'sint hoomin meat, true an' proper. Thas why the mamas an' aunties do cook up an' eat up the grampy stew when one o' the old'uns karks it.

Af'rawl, if'n some pro-teen get wasted, Gawd gets quite irate, or so I'm tole.

Praise be, n'such.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 10:10 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
By the way, just because jinn are created from fire does not make them like fire. Just as our bodies created from mud/clay do not resemble earth.
you/re made from semen and an egg cell
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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:32 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Bodies like your old teeth. It has no connection to your living body.
It sounds like you're preaching dualism. Are you trying to argue that Islam teaches an animistic dualism? Because if you are, your thread title makes no sense. The question asks what part of your being undergoes the afterlife if your body is still in the grave. If what's in the grave is not your essential self, then what is?

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
By the way, just because jinn are created from fire does not make them like fire. Just as our bodies created from mud/clay do not resemble earth.
Non sequitur. Jinns are mythical creatures, so you can imagine any origin for them that you want. But human beings are not made from clay. This we can observe.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 09:45 AM   #57
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But Jinn aren't real.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 02:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I don't know 'bout you, but I ain't made of no mud, blood.

.
Holy Quran
35:11 And [remember:] God creates [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm; and then He fashions you into either of the two sexes.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 02:56 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
But Jinn .
They are Real.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 04:37 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran
35:11 And [remember:] God creates [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm; and then He fashions you into either of the two sexes.
Your book is wrong. That is not how humans are made.

I admit that my "lady-belly" description is somewhat less than scientific, but it's still a damn sight closer to reality than your (arguably misogynistic) fairy story.

Also, dust is not the same thing as clay and/or mud.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 04:52 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
But Jinn aren't real.
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
They are Real.

Show me one.

Just one, I'm not greedy. Show me one Jinn.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 06:50 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran
35:11 And [remember:] God creates [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm; and then He fashions you into either of the two sexes.
Factually false. We observe that it's factually false. Other Muslims interpret this verse figuratively.

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
They are Real.
Just as real as the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. You can believe in whatever you want, but it's an objective fact that there is testable evidence for the existence of a human organism and no such evidence for the existence of jinns.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:11 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran
35:11 And [remember:] God creates [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm; and then He fashions you into either of the two sexes.

That verse does not say dust (غبار)... it says DIRT (تُرَابٍ)... as in the stuff on/in the ground... which is not dust.

And other verses say Mud and Clay and Black Mud and Slimy Mud and Sticky Clay.... basically DIRT of different compositions.

What is missing in any of those compositions is Hydro-Carbons and Amino-Acids... which is what living things are REALLY made out of in addition to other elements.

So nope... this verse proves that either Muhammad was a benighted consummate liar... or that the Demon/Djinn that tricked him had no idea what Biology and Chemistry are... or he deliberately lied to confound and befuddle the poor camel caravan pillager.

Wake up man... it is 2023... and you are using the APEX of science to expose around the globe how benighted your religion is.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:15 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
They are Real.
As real as Kali... and whatever Demon/Djinn tricked, 1400 years ago in a deserted desert cave, the wretched benighted camel caravan pillager....


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Old 4th February 2023, 02:22 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran
35:11 And [remember:] God creates [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm; and then He fashions you into either of the two sexes.

You need some serious sex education if you think this is how it happens!
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Old 4th February 2023, 02:50 AM   #66
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and;

Heaven is not paradise, it is universe:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611687.0
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Old 5th February 2023, 01:03 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
and;

Heaven is not paradise, it is universe:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611687.0
What has this to do with ghosts?
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Old 5th February 2023, 02:00 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
and;

Heaven is not paradise, it is universe:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611687.0

Define "universe"?

What is the Arabic word for "universe" a.k.a. "heaven"? And can you cite the verses of the Quran where this word is used??

Are you familiar with the verse
  • Q2:22 Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

Does rain come down from the "universe"?

Is the "universe" a canopy?


Are you familiar with thise verse
  • Q3:133 Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Paradise whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous


Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Heaven is not paradise, it is universe

As you can clearly observe... the Quran belies your assertion.... will you ever admit your error???




.

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Old 5th February 2023, 02:58 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What has this to do with ghosts?
The verses I gave are talking about living beings in other material universes. So it's not the spirit world, it's people like us who live in the material world, people who are in Paradise (Floor of Lord) right now.
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Old 5th February 2023, 03:35 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The verses I gave are talking about living beings in other material universes. So it's not the spirit world, it's people like us who live in the material world, people who are in Paradise (Floor of Lord) right now.

And did you go there and see for yourself what they are like there???

How do you know Allah is not a lying lump of Demon droppings???

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Old 5th February 2023, 03:38 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What has this to do with ghosts?
The verses I gave are talking about living beings in other material universes. So it's not the spirit world, it's people like us who live in the material world, people who are in Paradise (Floor of Lord) right now.
You do know that is pure heresy for Islam?
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Old 5th February 2023, 05:05 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The verses I gave are talking about living beings in other material universes. So it's not the spirit world, it's people like us who live in the material world, people who are in Paradise (Floor of Lord) right now.
So … in other “material universes” (whatever that means) your God is busy creating people from mud and semen, whereas in our world, it is still done in the traditional way with eggs and semen?
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Old 6th February 2023, 03:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Bodies like your old teeth. It has no connection to your living body.
So it's not us in this new universe then. Unless you're claiming, contra your thread title, that we do have immaterial souls to contain our essences.

You're so bad at this debating malarkey that you can't even agree with yourself.
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Old 6th February 2023, 07:26 AM   #74
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I ain't afraid of no ghosts!

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Old 6th February 2023, 07:54 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The verses I gave are talking about living beings in other material universes.
Now you're getting heretical, but that's not really my problem.

Quote:
So it's not the spirit world, it's people like us who live in the material world, people who are in Paradise (Floor of Lord) right now.
If the inhabitants of Paradise are not souls, and you're arguing there is no soul, then what is living in Paradise and what got left behind in the grave? You don't seem to understand the problem.
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Old 6th February 2023, 09:58 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
If the inhabitants of Paradise are not souls, and you're arguing there is no soul, then what is living in Paradise and what got left behind in the grave? You don't seem to understand the problem.

The question seems at its core identical to the teletransporter question in philosophy. If a perfect duplicate of you including all memories is created in another location, is it okay if the original you is destroyed at the same time? Some (including myself) have argued that the result would be the same partially illusory continuity of conscious experience we commonly experience anyhow, and that they would be willing to use the transporter (at least, in the hypothetical case where it functions with perfect reliability and accuracy). Others of course disagree, and also present strong arguments (e.g. that the creation of a duplicate is irrelevant to the original individual who is killed in the process). Neither side of that argument requires a migrating soul to justify it, which Emre's position happens to coincide with.

In most religious narratives of resurrection or afterlife, a migrating soul is assumed, which does make the scenario different from the teletransporter ones.

If we assume no migrating soul and the resurrecting deity Emre depicts, the same way we assume the perfect teletransporter in philosophical arguments, then sure, I'd have no trouble accepting resurrection on those terms. (One difference from the teletransporter scenarios is that while using the device is usually assumed to be voluntary, my present self cannot opt out of dying eventually in any case.)

The real question is, which new material incarnation in another universe would I prefer to be re-created in: the one that contains no devout Muslims, or the one that contains only devout Muslims? And that question isn't difficult at all.
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Old 8th February 2023, 05:18 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Bodies like your old teeth. It has no connection to your living body.
Wrong. Shed tissue continues to carry the genetic imprint of the originator's body.

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
By the way, just because jinn are created from fire does not make them like fire. Just as our bodies created from mud/clay do not resemble earth.
Garbage. Human bodies are not created from mud or earth. This is just stupid.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 8th February 2023, 05:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran
35:11 And [remember:] God creates [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm; and then He fashions you into either of the two sexes.

Wrong as usual.Your "holy book" is nonsense, based on the knowledge of the primitives who wrote it.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 8th February 2023, 06:33 AM   #79
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
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Old 8th February 2023, 05:52 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I ain't afraid of no ghosts!

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I AGREE
We don't need such ghouls in our bodies anyway.
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