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22nd April 2011, 12:53 PM | #361 |
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22nd April 2011, 01:05 PM | #362 |
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Of course it is because you have a short memory. I've explained that I "came to accept' the basic concept of MR theory at space.com several years ago. I outright rejected the first few papers that I was asked to read based on their use of "monopoles" to transfer energy.
I was however eventually presented with a paper by Birn that clearly explained the "moving particles" and "current" in the "magnetic lines". It did not use monopoles to transfer energy and it used only Maxwell's equations. It was very clear to me that what he was describing was essentially "circuit reconnection", not "magnetic reconnection', but otherwise the math looked *FABULOUS* IMO. I had to "come to terms" with the idea that a B oriented math approach was mathematically valid, even if the name they assigned to the physical process was goofy.
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Fortunately for everyone, GR theory does not rise or fall on my personal math skills. Neither does circuit theory. Get over it. No amount of bashing me is going to resolve your problem with Alfven's claim that MR theory was pseudoscience. It won't change the fact that he wrote HUNDREDS of papers on the topic of circuits in space and *ZERO* papers on *ANY* brand of MR theory. Deal with it. |
22nd April 2011, 01:59 PM | #363 |
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23rd April 2011, 01:48 PM | #364 |
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26th April 2011, 02:08 PM | #365 |
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You missed the point entirely (again). Mr. Clinger claimed that I somehow misrepresented or misunderstood Alfven on this topic, suggesting that Alfven didn't actually reject MR theory. Were any of you actually willing to *READ* his work for yourself, he's quite clear about why he rejects the idea, and he consistently does so.
If Mr. Clinger's accusation were accurate, and I did in fact misrepresent Alfven on this topic, one of you surely would have been able to produce a few papers by Alfven on this topic. You can blame Alfven for rejecting MR theory all you like, but blaming me for misunderstanding him, or misrepresenting Alfven isn't an option, at least it's not an *HONEST* option. |
26th April 2011, 02:30 PM | #366 |
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It doesn't appear that Alfvén wrote any papers on animal husbandry. Applying clear thought and rational judgement to that, it would be foolish to suggest that he considered animal husbandry pseudo-science because he didn't write anything about it. It's an irrational leap.
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W.D.Clinger's analysis of Alfvén's comments seems to be contradictory to the claim that Alfvén outright rejected magnetic reconnection. I recall Tim did a similar analysis as did tusenfem, Ziggurat, Reality Check, and others. From these objective and informed explanations, it appears any claims about Alfvén's total rejection of magnetic reconnection are unevidenced assertions. Of course even if Alfvén did believe magnetic reconnection was, on the whole, pseudo-science and contrary to physical reality, the fact that it does occur would go to show that on that issue, he was simply wrong. |
26th April 2011, 02:59 PM | #367 |
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26th April 2011, 03:25 PM | #368 |
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Wrong: Perpetual Student gets the point that you do not.
Alfven never rejected MR entirely. He thought that it was misapplied as in the handful of papers he wrote on magnetic reconnection, e.g. On frozen-in field lines and field-line reconnection (Journal of Geophysical Research, vol. 81, Aug. 1, 1976, p. 4019-4021)
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Are you capable of understanding that many of us have actually been willing to *READ* his work for ourselves. We see that he is quite clear about why he rejects the idea aand that the idea is not your fantasy of all of magnetic reconnection. The idea is the misapplication of MR theory. See above. We do not "Alfven for rejecting MR theory". We blame you for lying about what Alfven actually states. He never rejected MR theory. He rejected the frozen-in field approximation except in special cases. |
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27th April 2011, 07:38 PM | #369 |
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27th April 2011, 08:37 PM | #370 |
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Huh? That is a paper he wrote on MR theory, i.e. criticizing the misapplication of MR theory not ALL papers on the topic. HE wrote that paper personally. He cites an earlier paper HE wrote along with Falthammar (1971) . The subject is MR theory and its misapplication in the context of the magnetosphere.
This is a paper that Alfven wrote that
The fact that this paper by a Nobel prize wining scientist has been essentially ignored over the last 36 years indicates that he was stating the obvious. Plasma physicists knew 36 years ago that the frozen-in field approximation was an approximation ! They have sepent the last 36 years removing that approximation. They continue to work on MR theory. That is what happens in science. |
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28th April 2011, 06:42 AM | #371 |
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Alfvén acknowledged magnetic reconnection
http://plasma.colorado.edu/phys7810/...Lines_1976.pdf
The first four sections of that short paper describe a gedanken experiment in which the magnetic field is stationary. With a stationary magnetic field, there is obviously no magnetic reconnection. In section 5, however, Alfvén explicitly acknowledges the legitimacy and potential relevance of magnetic reconnection in non-stationary fields:
Originally Posted by Alfvén
As tusenfem and Tim Thompson have pointed out, magnetic reconnection has been observed in space. The relevance of those observations to the problems that interested Alfvén may not be entirely clear even today, but pseudo-scientists who reject magnetic reconnection out of hand or deny its potential relevance cannot support those prejudices by appeal to Alfvén's authority. That rejection is explicit in section 6 of the paper:
Originally Posted by Alfvén
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28th April 2011, 07:50 AM | #372 |
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Thanks, W.D.Clinger, for showing once again that arguments like these... ... are nonsense, demonstrably wrong, apparently based on ignorance rather than knowledge, and in many cases completely fabricated falsehoods. |
28th April 2011, 09:14 AM | #373 |
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As I have pointed out many times, these are the consequences of trying to read scientific papers without the scientific training and knowledge to understand them. Mozina would be well served by listening to those who have read these papers and have knowledge of plasma physics.
Dealing with income tax computer programs has nothing to do with plasma physics. |
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28th April 2011, 01:13 PM | #374 |
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I've seen denial before, but this group is in a class by itself. You picked ONE LINE from ONE PAPER that claimed it "remained to be proven" at best case, and ignored the fact he called it pseudoscience 7 times, 10 years later at a conference for plasma physicists where he presented a paper on double layers. In the same speech he claimed that any double layer put another nail in the coffin of MR theory so clearly he thought the theory DESERVED to be buried by 1986. You could not come up with a SINGLE paper he wrote on this topic, yet you insist he somehow supported it anyway. What a crock.
The worst part is that you're denying the legitimacy of a circuit oriented approach even though Alfven himself wrote *HUNDREDS* of papers on that topic, and zero papers on the topic of MR theory. Not a single one of you (Clinger/PS/GM/RC) have actually read his book. Evidently the only thing that you could even dig up from Alfven on this topic to support you position is a single line from a single paper from 10 years earlier that said it REMAINED UNPROVEN. Not one of you have yet to cite *ANY* flaw in a circuit oriented paper on magnetopheric activity, or flares. Not one of you have found a single paper where Alfven actually *SUPPORTED* MR theory. The best you could evidently come up with was a paper from 12 years *PRIOR* to his "pseudoscience" speech, where he claimed it remained to be proven. You're still in total denial of what he then said about that same theory 10 years later. How sad. |
28th April 2011, 01:20 PM | #375 |
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Yet that is *EXACTLY* where you're trying to use it anyway!
Note that not one of you could come with even a single paper where Alfven actually promoted the concept and you're in total denial of the fact the he explained these exact same events using "circuit" theory. |
28th April 2011, 01:35 PM | #376 |
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Pfft. Clinger found only a SINGLE line from ONE paper where Alfven claimed that MR theory had not been proven to that point in time, and he utterly ignored he speech from 10 years later where he called it pseudoscience more than a 1/2 dozen different times. The whole lot of you can't even come up with A SINGLE SUPPORTING PAPER written by Alfven. As a group, you have yet to find any flaw in any of his circuit oriented papers related to these very same topics where you claim that MR theory applies.
I don't listen to ignorant people that are scientifically lazy, who refuse to read the appropriate materials, and who refuse to do their homework. If he actually supported MR theory, where's Alfven's paper on this topic? There isn't one! |
28th April 2011, 01:40 PM | #377 |
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I noticed that you all have refused to acknowledge any of the scientific criticisms that Alfven leveled at the whole MR concept and you ignored the fact he ruled out that concept *EVERYWHERE* inside the solar system. he did that because there is nowhere inside this solar system where current does not flow. You essentially don't even care what he wrote, you're going to believe what you want to beleive even though you can't find even ONE supporting paper on this topic written by Alfven. It's like me claiming that Einstein supported EU theory, but not being able to come up with a single supporting document to support such a claim. The fact he hadn't ruled out MR theory entirely n 1976 does not mean he had not ruled it out in 1986 when he called it "pseudoscience" in a room full of his peers.
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28th April 2011, 02:18 PM | #378 |
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Alfvén acknowledged magnetic reconnection and used circuit models
You are wrong yet again, Michael Mozina:
Alfvén acknowledged magnetic reconnection And stop lying: I and other posters have told you time and time again that Alfven did explain solar flares (for example) using circuit models. We have also pointed out that circuit models are an even bigger approximation than the frozen-in field approximation that Alfven advocates as useful in special cases. Circuit models totally ignore the details of what is happening by absorbing them into a few parameters (resistivity, inductance, etc.). As an example, in circuit models Alfven waves do not exist! |
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28th April 2011, 02:29 PM | #379 |
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You are persisting in your delusions
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28th April 2011, 04:50 PM | #380 |
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If nobody could find a single paper where Alfvén actually supported plate tectonics, it would be absurd to suggest that consequently he rejected it. Absolutely, unequivocally absurd. So absurd it's not even wrong. It doesn't matter what Alfvén didn't write about magnetic reconnection. It's irrelevant. This sort of dishonest contortion of logic only gets more ridiculous each time it's used as an argument. But the fact is, Alfvén did apparently understand and acknowledge the existence of magnetic reconnection, as pointed out several times by Reality Check and others. To claim he didn't would be untrue and/or the result of ignorance of the preceding 10 pages of discussion.
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So Alfvén said something, then 10 years later said something else that allegedly overruled his earlier comments, yet all research and acquired knowledge in the field of plasma physics since then can be discarded because, well, it wasn't Alfvén! Again, the depth of the illogic in these Alfvén-was-omniscient arguments is abysmal.
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A speech isn't a paper. It's a speech. But of course a dishonest and/or unqualified misinterpretation is still dishonest and/or unqualified whether the criticism is of a speech or a scientific paper. Also, accusing the participants in this thread of being in denial when most of us clearly acknowledge and understand Alfvén's position, with a few who are actual experts in fields of physics, astrophysics, and/or plasma physics even, is both a personal attack and a lie. |
28th April 2011, 05:40 PM | #381 |
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This whole discussion about what Alfven said, when he said it, how many times he said it, etc. sounds like a religious debate about sacred texts. The only point that is relevant is whether the science supports the claims made, regardless of what Saint Alfven might have said.
Modern plasma physics accepts and deals with this process called magnetic reconnection on a routine basis: LINK. I, for one, could not give a rat's rectum about what Alfven said. If the thing exists and physicists throughout the world accept that fact and deal with it, that's the end of the discussion! Mozina's religious views on the subject have no meaning and are of no consequence! |
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29th April 2011, 12:29 AM | #382 |
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The whole problem with the model that Alfvén is using, the coils and all, is that he claims to be making a stationary solution, whereas I see it more as a static solution, and there is a difference. He puts in the coils for the solar wind and the Earth's field and the tail and puts in condensator plates to mimic the electric field on the magnetopause. Then he puts in particles, first test particles, than many whist reducing the currens in the coils and the voltage in the condensor.
This, IMHO, does not create the same as the interaction of the solar wind with the Earth's magnetosphere. Alfvén creates a stationary/static situation, I do not see how he gets the solar wind to flow past the Earth. Naturally, in this kind of situation, one can describe all with an overall view and nothing changes. He also does not want to label his magnetic field lines (which are the Maxwellian type of field lines, he says, which show the local direction of the field, as if there are any other field lines). However, as e.g. Fälthammar says in his EOS paper, when the assumption of ideal MHD can be made (which is very often the case for the solar wind) then one can label field lines, and then the whole story of the sationary/static model is no longer valid. We observe that magnetic structures, e.g. rotations of the magnetic field in the solar wind (see my upcoming paper Interplanetary magnetic field rotations followed from L1 to the ground: The response of the Earth's magnetosphere as seen by multi-spacecraft and ground-based observations) are transported through interplanetary space at the solar wind speed. This means that there are changes in the model that Alfvén wants to look at. Alfvén looks at snapshots of the whole system, and when nothing changes in the solar wind then every snapshot will look the same and you could get the impression that nothing is happening. However, it is clear from the Dungey cycle (presented 20 years! before Alfvén's paper) that just looking at that snapshot is not enough, there are dynamical processes taking place in the whole system. Then Alfvén agrees that when something "dynamic" happens, reconnection may be applicable, though he prefers the old Boström model of "current disruption." What we see (see e.g. Trattner) though, in the magnetosphere near the cusp region, is that field lines that were closed (clearly from the kind of plasma that is on them) suddenly show solar wind plasma, which means that that region has been opened up. Indeed, this happens when the solar wind magnetic field is favourable for high latitude reconnection. All kinds of things that cannot be modeled by Alfvén's snapshot stationary/static coils model. Since publication of said paper in 1976 we have 35 years (!) of development of magnetospheric physics, much (much) better observations of all the processes going on than Alfvén ever could imagine we could have, e.g. multiple satellite missions that scan the magnetosphere at separation distances from tens to hundreds of km. We are getting so much detail of what is happening in space plasmas, and everything we measure is in agreement with what is expected from magnetic reconnection, i.e. the behaviour of the magnetic field, of the plasma, of the currents. Luckily, in 2013 we will even be able to investigate the electron diffusion region around X-lines with the upcoming MMS mission. Too bad Alfvén is no longer there to witness all this progress. |
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29th April 2011, 09:10 AM | #383 |
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Real Plasma Physics & the Art of Denial
Then you should stop listening to yourself, as the self portrait you provide is stunningly accurate.
Surely one of the great ironies of all time is Mozina applying the word "denial" to anyone other than himself. To begin with, we have Mozina on record as denying the fundamental validity of the scientific method at its core. Mozina maintains consistently that only controlled laboratory experiments produce results that are scientifically meaningful. So in one fell swoop he denies the validity of all sciences that rely on field observations for their data; natural scientists, such as zoologists, observing creatures in the wild, meteorologists, geologists, archeologists, astronomers, & etc. In Mozina's mind, none of these disciplines have any legitimate claim to be "science". I have repeated this fact several times for well over a year, and Mozina has yet to even acknowledge the existence of the posts, let alone actually respond. The following is from February 1, 2010. Certainly, this level of denial should exclude Mozina from any intelligent discussion before it even begins. The evidence from these pages indicates that this idea is valid. Next, we have the significant hypocrisy of Mozina demanding that only controlled laboratory experiments will do, but then denying the existence of phenomena we can actually see happen in real plasma, once the desired experiments are brought forth. I first posted a small list of papers referring to laboratory experiments demonstrating magnetic reconnection, and links to laboratory experiments with webpages, in 2009 ... At no time has Mozina ever commented on a single experiment beyond the level of saying that the experimental results must be impossible because Alfven said so. Not one single reference to actual experimental data anywhere, ever. The list I have shown above is by no means exhaustive, as there are more detailed descriptions available in texts & papers. But we can be assured that Mozina will deny them one & all, and do so without bothering ever to actually examine the experiments in any scientific sense. So I refer to the Mozina self portrait above on the matter of "scientific laziness". And, as we see from the comment above, we can add to this a peculiar form of denial, namely Mozina's denial that it is possible for Hannes Alfven ever to have been wrong about anything, as if he were God incarnate. How can anyone be expected to take such an attitude seriously? The plain, simple, and very obvious truth is that Alfven was wrong. He was certainly not the first Nobel prize winner to make mistakes, and he certainly won't be the last. He was certainly not infallible, and when it comes to magnetic reconnection he blew it. We have an entire scientific discipline of plasma physics in the world today which proves that fact beyond any shadow of a doubt. The only denial going on here is Mozina's tragic denial of reality itself. |
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1st May 2011, 09:47 AM | #384 |
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In the sense that you personally have actually read Alfven's materials for yourself, I suppose you have a right to your own opinion on that topic. In the sense that only three of us to my knowledge have every read Alfven's work for themselves, I could care less about the opinion of anyone else involved in this topic.
Having said that, I see no evidence whatsoever that this problem is in any way related to my math skills, or lack thereof. In fact I see *overwhelming* evidence that this is *conceptual* problem that you and tusenfem have with a whole "circuit" orientation of plasma physics. It does have a direct physical consequence as it relates to "cause/effect" relationships as well. Alfven's circuit oriented approach put the electric horse before the magnetic cart. He used *charge separation* to drive the parade, whereas standard theory attempts to ignore the charge separation aspect entirely, and fixates strictly on a magnetic field orientation. Ultimately I'm quite sure in fact that this issue is in no way related to my personal math skills. No scientific theory rises or falls on the math skills of yours truly. Get over it. I did however put in the time to research MR theory well enough to accept that the approach was "mathematically sound", even if they attempted to *ignore* the particle physics, and quantum physics sides of the argument and give it a really horrific title. I therefore accepted that their "circuit reconnection" (with a bad name) orientation were valid if one were attempting to "dumb down" the whole process to a B orientation. Alfven rejected that approach, and wrote exactly zero papers on MR theory that were positively skewed. In fact he specifically wrote hundreds of papers on a circuit oriented approach. As I see things Tim, you got yourself involved in this topic with Don *long* before I even got involved in EU theory or had read any of Alfven's work for myself. I think your own "dislike" of the "EU movement" as you see it has prevented you from accepting the circuit oriented approach. It's not serving you IMO.
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Where does that ultimately leave us? Well, we could look to the empirical physical level and you can explain to me how the kinetic energy transfer process takes place and how it's fundamentally different from induction and or particle collisions in plasma? Care to give it a whirl, or did you just intend to deny the E orientation forever an ever over your disagreements with Don Scott, not Hannes Alfven, or Michael Mozina. |
1st May 2011, 11:59 AM | #385 |
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Someone define
a) Reconnection rate (In relation to physically measurable phenomenon) b) Magnetic tension (In relation to physically measurable phenomenon) |
1st May 2011, 12:00 PM | #386 |
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It appears there may never be a discussion of the empirical experiments which show that magnetic reconnection is a real, verifiable, genuine physical phenomenon. It appears that this... ... is one of the more germane, reasonable criticisms of the against-the-mainstream position. If the magnetic reconnection scoffers continue to intentionally avoid learning and addressing contemporary science, it seems likely they will never have a legitimate argument against it. And never is a very, very long time. |
1st May 2011, 01:43 PM | #387 |
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From your own first link Tim:
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I'm still waiting for either you or tusenfem to explain the unique kinetic energy exchange that is "magnetic reconnection". The transfer of particle kinetic energy to particle kinetic energy is not magnetic reconnection. The transfer of photon kinetic energy into charged particle kinetic energy is also not "magnetic reconnection", it's *INDUCTION*. What is the unique kinetic energy transfer process that makes magnetic reconnection so "special"? |
1st May 2011, 02:37 PM | #388 |
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a) In relation to any magnetic reconnection events, Reconnection rate = the rate of magnetic reconnection events, e.g. X events per second. IN ralation to any magnetic reconnection events
b) IN rtelation to any maeasurable magnteic field, Magnetic tension = the tension of magnetic fields (this is a component of the Lorentz force). Why do you ask? |
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1st May 2011, 04:20 PM | #389 |
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I'm not sure if this is laughably ridiculous or ridiculously laughable. Tim points out here that the criticism of magnetic reconnection doesn't amount to anything more than a continuous bleating of, "Alfvén said it isn't so"...
And the direct response to Tim's comment is this... Tim was exactly correct in his assessment of the scientific laziness and complete lack of legitimate criticism that comprises virtually the entire "problems with magnetic reconnection" argument. When the whole argument is just a droning repetition of, "Alfvén says it isn't so," the argument has failed. |
1st May 2011, 07:38 PM | #390 |
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I have no doubt that Alfven would be appalled if he could see the above exchange and witness how his work has been tortured and misrepresented.
The above exchange amply demonstrates that this is not science for Mozina; it is religion: Alfvenism? |
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2nd May 2011, 09:23 AM | #391 |
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Sorry to burst your bubble but most of the critics of MR theory have at least read a fair amount of materials on the topic, unlike you and Alfven's circuit theories.
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Like I said, I simply accept the legitimacy of circuit theory as it relates to these exact same events. Your blind ignorance of circuit theory due to your refusal to educate yourself to circuit theory is no skin of my nose. Onel and Mann explained flares *beautifully* using circuit theory, and you've never found any sort of flaw in any serious work on this topic. EPIC fail. |
2nd May 2011, 09:28 AM | #392 |
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But not by you of course because you haven't said a word about his actual writings, his formulas, his papers, his books, etc. The only game you know is "bash the messenger".
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2nd May 2011, 10:40 AM | #393 |
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2nd May 2011, 11:44 PM | #394 |
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Real Plasma Physics & Magnetic Reconnection
But Alfven was wrong to do so.
Actually, for the most part, no they do not. There are no cathodes involved. Currents yes, cathodes no. Of course it is magnetic reconnection, because the reconfiguration of the topology of the magnetic field is the direct source of the kinetic energy of the particles. This is a fact proven in the experiments, which you know so little about you cannot even describe them properly, You certainly have never examined the data from any of them. It is just as I said before, you have nothing to offer except "Alfven said so". But of course Alfven was just plain wrong. As for "circuit reconnection", you are conveniently ignoring the fact that I have already proven such things to be physically impossible. Ah, the infamous Mozina "I'm still waiting" game, conveniently ignoring the fact that this was done long ago, and has been done many times since. Magnetic reconnection is unique because it involves a fast reconfiguration of the topology of the magnetic field from a higher to a lower energy state, accompanied by a transfer of that energy lost by the field to the charged particles as kinetic energy. Induction cannot do that because (a) it cannot operate on such short time scales and (b) it does not involve a change in the topology of the magnetic field. Circuit reconnection cannot do that because (a) nobody knows what "circuit reconnection" is and (b) if you try to naively "reconnect" circuits that are running into each other head on they tend to collide and stop, not join and speed up. I have spent the last few days, and will spend tomorrow, at the April Meeting of the American Physical Society. It has been hard to choose which sessions to attend, especially when I would like to sit in on several simultaneous meetings. However, one particularly interesting Sunday morning session was Laboratory Plasma Astrophysics, which included Laboratory Studies of Magnetic Reconnection by Hantao Ji from the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (co-author of the recent review paper Magnetic Reconnection, Reviews of Modern Physics 82(1): 603-664, Jan-Mar 2010). He reviewed the experimental advances recently achieved at the PPPL Magnetic Reconnection Experiment. It's just like I said. First, the magnetic field reorganizes, then the plasma accelerates. The magnetic field configuration is measured directly in the plasma and can be duplicated by theory. All of the peculiar details predicted by the theory are seen. On the other hand, there is no sign of currents running headlong into each other and magically "reconnecting". Whatever "circuit reconnection" is supposed to be, one thing it certainly cannot be, is an excuse to avoid magnetic reconnection, which goes forth beyond doubt, in controlled laboratory plasma experiments. |
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3rd May 2011, 03:16 AM | #395 |
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I am sitting right across the room here from Joachim Birn. Maybe I should tell him "hi" from you, Mikey?
He is showing lots and lots of magentic reconnection in the Earth's magnetotail and other tails. |
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3rd May 2011, 07:22 AM | #396 |
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3rd May 2011, 08:42 AM | #397 |
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Sure, by all means. I still think his paper was one of the best I've ever read on the topic of (circuit) "reconnection".
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3rd May 2011, 09:03 AM | #398 |
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No Tim, he wasn't wrong to do so because he could see a "simpler" way to explain the events inside of current carrying double layer without evoking additional (metaphysical) energy exchanges. It's pure plasma physics as explained by his double layer paper at that point.
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This is best exemplified IMO by the Onel and Mann paper where they used Alfven's basic approach in terms of "charge separation" being the motive force. It allows for 'currents' to heat up the *ENTIRE* loop, Bennett Pinches to occur, etc. Their paper also demonstrates a simple way to extend the basic circuit to include multiple resistors, multiple "lines", etc. At the level of physics however, the "circuit" orientation makes more sense because it is the charge separation that drives the parade, not just the magnetic line that forms (sometimes briefly) during the discharge. Remember that white light image from Trace Tim? That's a "discharge".
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3rd May 2011, 09:10 AM | #399 |
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3rd May 2011, 09:35 AM | #400 |
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