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19th April 2011, 01:55 PM | #321 |
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FYI, I am sorry for my previous comments. They really were uncalled for and inappropriate, not to mention just plain ignorant and wrong.
In terms of the circuit paradigm however you are in fact refusing to meet me in the middle, and therefore you are in fact negating the circuit oriented approach in exactly the same way that Alfven negated the B oriented approach. If I have to chose between you and Alfven, sorry Tim. The problem is that it's possible to add gates and resistors and anything and everything else necessary to circuit theory to essentially describe the same processes. The paper by Onel and Mann demonstrates that flares can be explained that way, and Alfven's writing about circuit theory and how that applies to magnetospheric activities has never been disputed to my knowledge. These are the two primary places the mainstream uses "magnetic reconnection" theory. Whatever problems you have with Alfven's comment about no current being able to cross the surface to be examples of magnetic reconnection, you'll have to do a better job explaining your position. I don't care that the plasma doesn't care that current runs through it. I care that there is running current through it, and therefore I care to (prefer to) work with circuits in such cases, just like Alfven and just like Mann and Onel. I think the basic problem is that you can't meet me in the middle because that means that "magnetic reconnection" really is "circuit reconnection" and of course every one of you knows that I can't possibly be right. That leaves us with you and Alfven Tim, and I'm sorry Tim, but your beliefs don't hold up to scrutiny IMO. You're essentially putting the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse. Alfven, Mann and Onel use CHARGE SEPARATION to drive the flaring process, whereas as you're trying to claim the magnetic field does the work. It simply doesn't work like that in your own lab tests that you yourself has cited. The *CHARGE SEPARATION* and CURRENTS drive the process. You'll have to bear with me a bit this week and next. I'll be out of town all next week on business and I'll be offline a bit this week as well. Things will return to normal for me in a few weeks. Until then my responses are likely to be a bit limited. |
19th April 2011, 02:03 PM | #322 |
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19th April 2011, 02:29 PM | #323 |
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Um , you'll note that that you give no citation to this assertion that Alfven abandoned MR theory for all real life plasmas.
The quotations that you have given state the opposite, i.e. that there are conditions for which the use of MR theory of 30 years ago was valid and other condition where the use was invalid. And read what you quoted:
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19th April 2011, 03:05 PM | #324 |
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The choice here is not between Alfvén and Tim Thompson. The choice is between Gauss/Faraday/Ampère/Maxwell and Michael Mozina's misinterpretations of what Alfvén wrote.
The basic problem is that you aren't right. As we have explained countless times, and as has been noted by some of the papers you yourself have cited, magnetic reconnection can occur without any accompanying change in circuit topology. Until you accept that fact, the more complex situations in which magnetic reconnection is accompanied by changes in circuit topology will remain beyond your understanding. |
19th April 2011, 04:33 PM | #325 |
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Where in the middle between right and wrong, correct and incorrect, supported by evidence and unqualified unsupported fantasy, should legitimate science meet? I think everyone, with the possible exception of the against-the-mainstream proponents, agrees that it would be foolish for science to meet anywhere between right and wrong, when we have objective quantitative evidence clearly separating them. |
19th April 2011, 09:36 PM | #326 |
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19th April 2011, 09:52 PM | #327 |
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So you think he never published anything on magnetic reconnection. So what?
ETA I will note that he did publish papers on waves in plasma (Alfven waves). These are impossible in circuit theory. So at least one of his papers is about these waves and not related to circuit theory and/or double layer behaviors. ETA2: You'll note that that you still gave no citation to this assertion that Alfven abandoned MR theory for all real life plasmas. |
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19th April 2011, 10:24 PM | #328 |
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Should we "meet" an anti-vaccination crackpot "in the middle" and say sometimes vaccinations cause autism? Should we meet an homeopathic wacko in the middle and say once in a while molecules can have memory? Should we meet an ID fanatic in the middle and agree that a deity is needed to explain evolution from time to time? Should we meet an astrologer in the middle and concede that occasionally the position of Mars can make good things happen for someone born in April? These examples would be the equivalent to meeting Mozina in the middle when discussing plasma physics, a field in which he has proven to be totally unqualified.
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20th April 2011, 12:48 AM | #329 |
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Unless you can point out exactly how this circuit paradigm can describe the microphysics, and the irreversable magnetic topology of MRx and point out exactly where in the Onel & Mann paper this is done, there is no middle ground.
Tim is NOT negating the circuit representation of plasma physical processes, just like I am not doing that. However, Tim understands, like I do, that circuit representation is a long wavelength approximation of plasma physics, even on larger scales than MDH. Unless you finally understand what a circuit representation means, there is no middle ground. The do it! Add frakking stuff, I started it for you, remember??? But when you found out that you had to do some real work, you quickly decided it would be safer to let it drop and came up with some silly discussion about finding middle ground again and citing some papers that we maybe better discuss. Onel and Mann calculate that the energy in the system is equal to what can be released in a flare, which is no surprise, because when you do a correct circuit representation the total energy in that circuit is equal to the integral of the magnetoplasma energy. So to repeat what I wroten in post #200 in this thread Onel & Mann use a circuit model of structures on the sun, and then come up with the various values for the R and the U and everything else. Then they find the power in photospheric motion in Eq. 9 and show that in the circuit there is a total energy that is comparable with what is released in solar flares. One would be surprised if they had found something else. Then they use runaway electrons that are accelerated at a coronal electric field, that lose energy through coulomb collisions Eqs. 11/12/13 and find a value for the Dreicer field, above which electrons are basically collisionless. Then basically, what they want to explain is the X-ray emission from flares, and find that the bremsstrahlung by accelerated electrons is the main cause and that electric fields, as described in their model, can explain the acceleration of the electrons. Fine, it is a nice paper (which I have said already some time ago), however, has nothing to do with magnetic reconnection. Nothing about how the magnetic field changes etc. Now I want from YOU mikey, a full discussion of the Onel & Mann paper! |
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20th April 2011, 12:50 AM | #330 |
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Unfortunately, being busy with finishing two papers (one actually involves magnetic reconnection at the dayside magnetopause) and having had a conference, I have had no time to actually discuss the MRx experiment paper. Maybe after Easter.
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20th April 2011, 09:16 AM | #331 |
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Oh, I've posted what Alfven wrote about "magnetic reconnect" theory. He called it pseudoscience and claimed all DL's put another nail in it's coffin. He claimed that all MR theories in plasmas with current running through them were "misleading". They were better looked at as 'circuits' and "double layers". He wrote *HUNDREDS* of papers on the topic of 'circuits' and double layers. You collectively can't come up with even *ONE* paper that he wrote on the topic of MR theory. Why is that?
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The single most telling aspect is the fact that not a single one of you can come up with even a single paper by Alfven on the topic of MR theory. Why not? |
20th April 2011, 09:22 AM | #332 |
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20th April 2011, 09:25 AM | #333 |
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The middle ground between two 'circuits' in Onel and Mann's paper would be a "double layer" that forms between the two "circuits". That's the middle ground and Alfven himself wrote all about the behaviors of plasma inside that double layer. When the circuit topology eventually changes over time, the "circuit reconnection' process will be complete, the current will flow in a new pattern. The magnetic field topology will have changed as a result of the change in the direction of the current. There's plenty of middle ground here, but you can't go there because I've already staked out the high ground and you refuse to admit that I'm right. It's really that simple.
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20th April 2011, 09:43 AM | #334 |
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Saw an exploding contour line on a hill the other day. Makes me wonder if magnetic reconnection could be a bit more plausible.
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20th April 2011, 03:42 PM | #335 |
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Bertrand Russell would have loved this...
As I said, you are forcing us to choose between Maxwell's equations and your interpretation of Alfvén's unrefereed keynote address. Even if your interpretation were correct, it would just mean that Alfvén said some nonsense about magnetic reconnection.
Because that's one of the many areas of science in which Alfvén had nothing useful to contribute. Your first statement is false, as you would know if you had run the experiment I suggested. Your second sentence has nothing to do with your first sentence or with anything I wrote, but it's a great example of intellectual rubbish. Alfvén is not a deity, so what he forbids is irrelevant. Whether he actually forbade any such thing is questionable, since we have only your word for it. Even if you were to come up with a proper citation in support of your allegation, it would mean only that Alfvén was talking about something other than magnetic reconnection or that Alfvén was talking nonsense. Currents and magnetic fields often go together. The quantitative link between them is provided by Maxwell's equations. Once again, we must choose between Gauss/Faraday/Ampère/Maxwell and Michael Mozina's exegesis of Alfvén's sacred writings. The problem here is that you can't argue with Maxwell's equations, so you're resorting to a nonsensical argument: that some area of science is illegitimate because Alfvén's sacred texts say nothing about it. Because Alfvén contributed nothing to that area of science. There are zillions of things Alfvén didn't write about, and some of the things he did write are wrong. Consider, for example, Alfvén's attempt to hand-wave away the cosmic microwave background radiation by appealing to E.L.Wright's conjecture that "needle-shaped conducting grains can provide sufficient opacity to produce the observed spectrum." In a nice bit of irony I noticed only today, E.L.Wright is the astronomer who wrote a widely cited rebuttal to Eric J Lerner's The Big Bang Never Happened. |
21st April 2011, 01:30 AM | #336 |
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21st April 2011, 07:44 AM | #337 |
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This is the part I find strangest about MM's claims. The idea that modern physics must be wrong because one guy might have disagreed with it a few decades ago is just utterly bizarre. Einstein got things wrong. Newton most certainly got some things very wrong. Feynman got things wrong. Darwin got things wrong. Maxwell got things wrong. Everyone who has ever lived got at least some things wrong, and scientists are no exception to that, famous or not. There are no messiahs, only people.
Alfven may well have said magnetic reconnection is impossible. Even if he did, that does not mean he must have been right. He certainly didn't know everything that we know today, and even if he had he could simply have been wrong about it. Just because he did some good work doesn't mean everything he ever said must have been correct. Newton also did some great work, but that doesn't mean we should all start believing in alchemy. The insistence on relying on a single, often outdated, person's work above all else seems to be a very common attribute of crackpots. |
21st April 2011, 08:39 AM | #338 |
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May i refer some of the more competent readers here to the thread I started a long time ago on this subject: Magnetic reconnection and physical processes. Some of the original questions I asked have not been answered (either not fully or were rebutted later as the thread progressed). There is a lot of good information there and many links to numerous relevant publications.
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21st April 2011, 08:58 AM | #339 |
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In terms of supporting discharge and circuit theory, it's a good thing I've cited a whole lot of other papers from other authors, now isn't it?
The "crackpot" comments seems a wee out of place for a moderator IMO. You're entitled to your opinions of course, but as moderator, aren't you supposed to play by a higher set of standards? IMO Alfven's rejection of MR theory comes from the fact that the charge separation does the real work in all 'discharge' events, not really the magnetic field. The magnetic field is just a function of the current flow in most cases. In terms of the transfer of EM field energy into particle kinetic energy, Alfven consistently used the "standard scientific terminology", specifically he used the term "induction". Without creating anything "new" Alfven could explain these behaviors in plasma using standard circuit theory and standard particle physics theory. He saw no need to 'invent' a new and really "silly" title (he called it "pseudoscientific actually). He understood that the circuit energy was more important than the local magnetic field conditions at the point of 'reconnection'. It's the entire circuit energy that can be released as a result of that "short circuit". You'll note however that I absolutely, positively did not and have not misrepresented Alfven on the topic of MR theory. I've quoted him directly. He had the absolute audacity to stand before a room full of plasma physicists and call MR theory "pseudoscience" more than a dozen times in a single keynote speech. He put *strict* limits on the conditions of the plasma in terms of whether or not MR could even considered. Essentially I don't have to demonstrate that Alfven was wrong about MR theory because I personally have already accepted that the MATH is correct. I simply lack belief that anything other than charge separation and current flow generates those million degree coronal loops. You folks aren't just trying to claim that Alfven was wrong about MR theory, you're tying to claim his whole circuit approach is wrong and unrelated to the very same observations where you're using MR theory. Good luck with that. |
21st April 2011, 09:03 AM | #340 |
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21st April 2011, 09:08 AM | #341 |
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So you have crystal clear evidence that I have never misrepresented Alfven on this topic, not ever! He consistently preferred a "circuit" orientation to such events. Whatever "reconnection" happens, happens between two "circuits" according to Alfven, not just two "magnetic lines". You folks have essentially mathematically "dumbed down" a current carrying Bennett Pinch "circuit" to a "magnetic line" so that you can call it 'magnetic reconnection'.
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21st April 2011, 09:21 AM | #342 |
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The middle ground is the DL that forms between the circuits and Alfven wrote *ALL ABOUT DL's*. Where was the error in his DL paper?
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21st April 2011, 01:52 PM | #343 |
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21st April 2011, 02:20 PM | #344 |
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21st April 2011, 03:35 PM | #345 |
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That's a clear misrepresentation of Alfvén's keynote address. I count only 7 occurrences of the word "pseudo-science" within that address.
Alfvén uses that word only in section III.B., which warns against "the danger of using the frozen-in concept" and stresses "the difference between the real plasma and "a fictitious medium" called "the pseudo-plasma," the latter having frozen-in magnetic field lines moving with the plasma." On my reading of that section, Alfvén is only condemning the invalid theories of magnetic reconnection that use the frozen-in approximation and/or the fictitiously ideal plasma. My reading of that section has been confirmed by several members of JREF who are far more expert in this area than Michael Mozina or myself. According to Michael Mozina, however, Alfvén was condemning all theories of magnetic reconnection. If Michael Mozina is right about that, then Alfvén was wrong about magnetic reconnection. And so, for those who are too sensible to investigate this as fully as I have, it may come down to this: Who is more likely to be wrong, Michael Mozina or Hannes Alfvén? No matter how we answer that question, Michael Mozina's "more than a dozen times" was a misrepresentation of Alfvén's keynote address. I could give less trivial examples of Michael Mozina's misrepresentations, but that particular misrepresentation is indisputable. Yet you continue to deny the facts about magnetic reconnection as demonstrated in terrestrial laboratories. You did that again just yesterday, in post #331. No. For evidence that you have misrepresented Alfvén on this topic, see your "more than a dozen times" remark quoted earlier. No. For evidence that you have misrepresented Alfvén on this topic, see your "more than a dozen times" remark quoted earlier. No. You must not know anything about mathematics, Bennett Pinches or magnetic lines, or perhaps you are lying about what we "folks" have been saying. For evidence that you have misrepresented Alfvén on this topic, see your "more than a dozen times" remark quoted earlier. |
21st April 2011, 04:40 PM | #346 |
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Ok, it should have read "half dozen". My bad. The rest I'll deal with later.
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21st April 2011, 06:34 PM | #347 |
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Of course, we also have to deal with the astonishing claim that a software technician with little mathematics and physics training knows more about this subject than thousands of extremely well trained and often brilliant professionals throughout the world.
If anyone believes that one, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. |
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21st April 2011, 08:29 PM | #348 |
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Actually all you have to believe is that someone who's actually bothered to read Alfven's book on this topic and dozens if not hundreds of his papers for themselves, actually knows more about Alfven's work than people like you that have not. The fact you have to resort to a pathetic debate tactic of fixating on the individual in a scientific debate is a direct result of your scientific laziness IMO.
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21st April 2011, 08:36 PM | #349 |
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21st April 2011, 08:38 PM | #350 |
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Heck, even the "lesser" that he knows as much about it as even one would be an astonishing claim, no?
Also, I'm curious: does this mean you absolutely cannot get a large knowledge of this stuff without being rich enough to afford a formal education program in it, no matter how much work you do or how much dogmatism you refuse to fall into (like MM is doing)? |
21st April 2011, 08:52 PM | #351 |
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Oh my! I really, really, really misrepresented him then didn't I? Ok, I didn't go back and count, but so what if it was 7 or 12 times? He called it pseudoscience 7 times at a keynote speech at a conference for plasma physicists! What more evidence could you possibly need to understand that Alfven didn't like the concept? That was the same conference where he presented his paper on Double Layers and he claimed that all DL's were another "nail in the coffin" of MR theory. He never wrote about the concept and he preferred a circuit oriented approach.
I guess you're right though, I didn't go back and actually count. I was *SO* bad.
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The only person who has grossly misrepresented Alfven is you. Yes, you're right I was lazy and didn't go back and count how many times he called it pseudoscience, but it is indisputable that he called it *PSEUDOSCIENCE* and never once wrote about any variation of MR theory he actually promoted. All his work in current carrying plasmas, and interplanetary plasmas was based on 'circuit' theory, not MR theory. |
21st April 2011, 09:03 PM | #352 |
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I'm not sure how to respond until I see exactly which paper and experiments he's talking about. I have no idea if they meet Alfven's criteria on this topic. I'll have to see how they eliminated more 'mundane" processes in plasma like induction and/or particle collisions before *LEAPING* to the conclusion that "magnetic reconnection did it". Which paper, which empirical experiments are we talking about?
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21st April 2011, 10:55 PM | #353 |
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A formal education is a great vehicle for gaining knowledge. Nevertheless, people can and do certainly learn through self study.
But Mozina has demonstrated that he has not taken the time to do so because he lacks an understanding of basic physics and has no skills in mathematics, which is the language and tool for analysis within the field of physics. Instead of studying plasma physics (either formally or informally), he has fallen into a cult of EU crackpots who do not understand real physics and cosmology. For them, sacred texts trump the scientific method. His studying of Alfven's papers would be like his reading an original text of The Iliad without a knowledge of ancient Greek. In order to understand Alfven's papers one must first learn the language of physics (mathematics) and gain a strong understanding of basic physics. Otherwise there can be no useful context to understand Alfven's papers. In summary, he has demonstrated no such understanding or knowledge. When it comes to physics, he is a pretender. Sadly, he does manage to fool some people. |
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22nd April 2011, 12:31 AM | #354 |
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That depends on what double layer model you are talking about.
The one in the solar loop that just unwinds the magnetic field is fine, but is not reconnection. The one about the exploding double layer is most likely wrong because it has been shown that such strong double layer will not exist in a natural plasma because they tend to distribute the potential drop in many double layers, such that this dramatic "chocking" of the current is not going to happen. I have cited the paper somewhere in this thread or in the other thread, look it up. Now, please come up with this circuit model, thank you very much. Just claiming stupid things as "the DL will form between the two circuits is the middle ground" does not make any sense. Did I say that? No. Did I not use two circuits in my diagrams that should be coupled somehow? Yes. Can the circuits describe how the topology of the magnetic field changes? No. Do you understand anything about circuit theory model and how it relates to plasma physical processes? No. Please answer me this. How does circuit theory deal with currents flowing perpendicular to the magnetic field? Are the magnetic field lines not supposed to be the electrical wires in the circuit diagram? ETA: It was the paper by Foukal & Hinata (1991) that bring the arguments against one of those huge exploding double layers. |
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22nd April 2011, 06:19 AM | #355 |
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I am not a physicist. Most of what little I know about physics is derived from self study.
I do, however, have enough formal education in math and physics to understand the most basic facts about magnetic reconnection. If that's what mike3 means by "this stuff", then freshman-level knowledge of vector calculus and electricity and magnetism would put you far ahead of Michael Mozina. The vector calculus can be learned on your own, but it would be easier to take a course or two at your local community college. I'm not sure you can trust your local community college to teach E&M, because you really need a course designed for physics majors instead of the watered-down versions they teach to more general audiences. The course I took used Edward Purcell's textbook, which I can recommend. One problem with self-study is that you're likely to miss out on the laboratory experiments that are part of university physics courses. Michael Mozina's unfamiliarity with experimental science is one of the reasons he gives more weight to prophetic pronouncements than to empirical facts. Had he been willing to perform the simple experiment I suggested, he'd have observed magnetic reconnection in his own laboratory. |
22nd April 2011, 08:34 AM | #356 |
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Um, I'm the one that has read Alfven's books and papers, whereas you have not. That's essentially the primary difference between us, AKA "education".
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22nd April 2011, 08:41 AM | #357 |
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Nope. Been there, done that more than thirty years ago.
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22nd April 2011, 08:46 AM | #358 |
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Show me one (published) that satisfied Alfven's criteria. You've still never copped to the fact that Alfven wrote *ZERO* papers on the topic of magnetic reconnection theory, and HUNDREDS of papers on "circuits/DLs" in plasma. Seven times he called "magnetic reconnection' theory "pseudoscience" in a single speech at a conference where he presented a paper on double layers. He claimed in that same speech that any double layer drove another nail in the coffin of that theory.
Essentially the 'crew' here is the mirror opposite of Alfven. Whereas he outright rejected your beliefs, you outright reject his work in circuit theory in terms of is "equality" in plasma physics. You're all bigots IMO, including Alfven. |
22nd April 2011, 09:20 AM | #359 |
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It's likely Alfvén wrote exactly zero papers on breeding sheep, too. I'm sure we all agree that only a fool might take that to mean our current knowledge of animal husbandry is lacking or incorrect because Alfvén didn't know, didn't care, or maybe was a complete idiot when it comes to breeding sheep. This particular line of logic isn't even logic. It failed before it started and continues to fail every time it's brought up. In fact, if we were to pursue this as if it represented some kind of logic, the fact that Alfvén "wrote *ZERO* papers on the topic of magnetic reconnection theory" would mean that using Alfvén to argue against magnetic reconnection is a fool's errand. If the argument is built on the notion that he wrote no papers on it, he certainly can't be used as any kind of an expert on the subject. |
22nd April 2011, 09:48 AM | #360 |
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Self-study doesn't always work, as michaelsuede and Michael Mozina have demonstrated in this thread.
Michael Mozina has been telling us that Alfvén's books and papers say absolutely nothing about magnetic reconnection. Here, however, he claims to have educated himself about magnetic reconnection by reading Alfvén's books and papers. That's a nonsensical argument. Why, then, is Michael Mozina unable to compute the curl of a vector field? As I have stated elsewhere, magnetic reconnection can occur in the absence of plasmas. Michael Mozina has said he would "*LOVE* to see a "physical demonstration" of that, yet he refuses to look at a physical demonstration. michaelsuede and Michael Mozina are the ones who have been confusing themselves by dragging plasma into the picture before they understand even the basic facts about magnetic reconnection. The knowledgeable people here generally attempt to explain magnetic reconnection without speaking of plasma. For example... From that field to magnetic reconnection is but a short step, yet michaelsuede and Michael Mozina refuse to see the connection: Ziggurat took that short step by giving this simple example of magnetic reconnection: michaelsuede couldn't follow Ziggurat's explanation because he knew nothing about the vector fields he had been blathering about: Then Michael Mozina entered the fray. He can't compute a divergence or curl either, so he ignored all of the above. The experiment I suggested can be set up around a vacuum chamber that's devoid of plasma. Although the vacuum chamber will make the measurements a lot less convenient, the magnetic reconnection happens just the same in the vacuum as in air. Since the vacuum is devoid of particles, plasmas, or circuits, the experiment I suggested refutes Michael Mozina's claim. Decisively. No wonder Michael Mozina has ignored that experiment. That's ignorant nonsense. In the experiment I suggested, there are no "ordinary particle collisions inside current carrying plasma", the "circuit topology" does not change over time, and the magnetic lines do not "just follow the current." As I wrote on 28 March: |
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