IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags apollo hoax , Candace Owens , moon landing hoax , NASA conspiracies

Reply
Old 30th January 2022, 06:02 AM   #1
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Candace Owens says Apollo was a hoax

Candace Owens tweeted
@RealCandaceO
Jan 28
Now for some light-hearted fun. What’s the one “conspiracy theory” that no matter what anyone says you believe is true. Mine is that the moon landing in 1969 was completely faked.
Just nothing about it makes sense. Especially NASA “accidentally erasing” the original footage.

The biggest thing for me is the fuel tank size, plus the live broadcast with audio from the moon. In 1969.
I just cannot.

Def believe this one too!
And heard it from an extremely reliable source…

Quote Tweet
Lauren Chen
@TheLaurenChen
Jan 28
Government knows there's aliens
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 06:05 AM   #2
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:33 AM   #3
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
Which "original footage" would that be?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:34 AM   #4
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The biggest thing for me is the fuel tank size...
I'd love to see her engineering computations.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:38 AM   #5
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
What 'original footage' do you think hasn't been preserved?
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:39 AM   #6
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'd love to see her engineering computations.
Some people claim they turned the engine off and just coasted all the way, it's obviously a hoax!
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:39 AM   #7
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
Was she wearing a pant-suit when she made that remark?
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:41 AM   #8
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Was she wearing a pant-suit when she made that remark?
Yes, made out of the fabric of society.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:41 AM   #9
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
Wow. You really have no clue.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:42 AM   #10
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
But that would mean that Candace Owens is an idiot.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:43 AM   #11
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,980
On the one hand I agree with her. Nothing about it makes sense to her no matter what anyone tells her. If she had any self-awareness she would realize how much it undercuts her assumption that she has anything of value to tell anyone else. Can anyone trust her analytical skills when she so proudly trumpets her inability to learn?
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:50 AM   #12
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes, made out of the fabric of society.
At this point I am uncertain such a fabric even exists anymore. Owens can make such a stupid statement and get away with it and some members here cheer her on.

Humankind deserves to go extinct. It is too stupid for words.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 08:57 AM   #13
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
The only "original footage" that's been lost was the original tape of the TV broadcast of the Apollo 11 EVA. It probably wasn't considered important because it wasn't NTSC compatible, having been broadcast with the black & white Westinghouse camera because its lower bandwidth didn't require the crew to set up the high gain antenna during the short EVA.

We still have tapes of the NTSC conversion for broadcast.

Conspiracy theorists like to point to the erasure of telemetry recordings as somehow suspicious, but those recordings were of low significance, really, being just days and days of telemetry about voltages, and tank pressures, and cabin conditions etcetera. During the Landsat program, it was discovered that the new magnetic tapes were coming apart and gumming up the record heads because the industry had switched to a new binding agent that was failing after some time. This was a problem for the music recording industry as well. They couldn't get reliable tapes quickly enough, so they reused a lot of old tapes from the archives, because it was critical that they be able to record all the expensive data streaming in from Landsat. This is the source of the typical "they erased all the footage!" claims. All of the real data - the scientific data, photos, moving pictures and TV broadcasts, as well as all the voice communications - are preserved.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

Last edited by Foster Zygote; 30th January 2022 at 08:58 AM.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:05 AM   #14
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Some people claim they turned the engine off and just coasted all the way, it's obviously a hoax!
And so is baseball. There's no way a ball can keep moving after it has left the pitcher's hand. What's pushing it all the way to home plate?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:21 AM   #15
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wow. You really have no clue.
Quote:
A team of retired NASA employees and contractors tried to find the tapes in the early 2000s but was unable to do so. The search was sparked when several still photographs appeared in the late 1990s that showed the visually superior raw SSTV transmission on ground-station monitors. The research team conducted a multi-year investigation in the hopes of finding the most pristine and detailed video images of the moonwalk. If copies of the original SSTV format tapes were to be found, more modern digital technology could make a higher-quality conversion, yielding better images than those originally seen. The researchers concluded that the tapes containing the raw unprocessed Apollo 11 SSTV signal were erased and reused by NASA in the early 1980s, following standard procedure at the time
Quote:
NASA held a news conference at the Newseum, in Washington, D.C. regarding the missing tapes on July 16, 2009 – the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11's launch from Cape Kennedy.[3] The multinational research team looking into the missing tapes—mostly retired engineers who had worked on the original broadcast in 1969—was represented at the event by Richard Nafzger from the Goddard Space Flight Center and Stanley Lebar, the former lead engineer at Westinghouse who developed the Apollo Lunar Camera and the Apollo Color Camera.[13] They concluded that the data tapes—with the SSTV signal—were shipped from Australia to Goddard and then routinely erased and reused a few years later.
Hmm. Seems like the footage wasn't fully preserved. Amairite?

Last edited by Warp12; 30th January 2022 at 09:23 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:23 AM   #16
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
It probably wasn't considered important because it wasn't NTSC compatible...
It wasn't compatible with anything. For Apollo 11 the television signal was embedded in the telemetry. You literally needed an Ampex telemetry recorder, properly configured, and a bunch of custom, one-off television equipment to view it. It was critical to read that out into a standard format, using the one-off equipment one time, and then that standard-format recording is considered the "original footage."

Today those recorders are exceptionally rare and I'm not sure today whether any of them are in working order. Even in their time, they were built-to-order machines. I know some of the extant telemetry tapes from some of the unmanned early probes have been read out, but that's more of a novelty than the expected operation.

Quote:
During the Landsat program, it was discovered that the new magnetic tapes were coming apart and gumming up the record heads because the industry had switched to a new binding agent that was failing after some time.
More specifically, the original binder was made from whale oil -- no kidding. Memorex obviously wanted a more environmentally responsible solution. The binder made from other materials couldn't survive the punishment from a high-speed, multi-head telemetry recorder.

Quote:
This was a problem for the music recording industry as well.
Well into the 1980s, as Boston's Third Stage recordings suffered a similar fate. I have some 9-track IBM computer tapes from long-ago projects that are getting flaky.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:35 AM   #17
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hmm. Seems like the footage wasn't fully preserved. Amairite?
You are not right. The slow-scan TV format is not just another standard. It was literally invented for one -- and only one -- Apollo mission, and then discarded as future missions would use a more standard process. Because that process and its custom-made equipment was going to be discarded, it was essential to read out the telemetry into a standard format. That copy, in the standard format, was the archival copy, and it still exists.

If, decades later, someone figures out a different way to read out the data, that a doesn't suddenly make someone decades earlier short-sighted. The previous read-out process was necessarily lossy, but it was the best available at the time. Yes, all things being equal it would have been no problem to just put the tapes in a warehouse. But all things were not equal and there was suddenly a desperate need for blank tape. At the time that was the right decision to make, far more important than preserving data in an unreadable format against the possibility that someone in the future would invent a different way of reading it.

The footage was preserved at the time in the only and best way possible.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:42 AM   #18
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You are not right. The slow-scan TV format is not just another standard. It was literally invented for one -- and only one -- Apollo mission, and then discarded as future missions would use a more standard process. Because that process and its custom-made equipment was going to be discarded, it was essential to read out the telemetry into a standard format. That copy, in the standard format, was the archival copy, and it still exists.

If, decades later, someone figures out a different way to read out the data, that a doesn't suddenly make someone decades earlier short-sighted. The previous read-out process was necessarily lossy, but it was the best available at the time. Yes, all things being equal it would have been no problem to just put the tapes in a warehouse. But all things were not equal and there was suddenly a desperate need for blank tape. At the time that was the right decision to make, far more important than preserving data in an unreadable format against the possibility that someone in the future would invent a different way of reading it.

The footage was preserved at the time in the only and best way possible.
So, was the best quality original data stream from the feed lost, or not? Yes or no.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:43 AM   #19
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hmm. Seems like the footage wasn't fully preserved. Amairite?
No.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:44 AM   #20
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, was the best quality original data stream from the feed lost, or not? Yes or no.
No.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:48 AM   #21
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, was the best quality original data stream from the feed lost, or not? Yes or no.
It's not a yes-or-no question. Define "best quality."
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:54 AM   #22
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's not a yes-or-no question. Define "best quality."
Purest original data.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 09:55 AM   #23
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Best, purest original data.
In what format? Does usability factor into your evaluation of quality?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:05 AM   #24
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
In what format? Does usability factor into your evaluation of quality?
If we add up all of the potentially usable data, were the most complete and unfiltered samples lost?
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:10 AM   #25
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
In what format? Does usability factor into your evaluation of quality?
Sigh. I was trying to avoid the technical aspects because he has no chance of remotely understanding a single bit of it (haha). You get that pun, he does not.

I tried to avoid it, but if we must delve in to the technicalities, so be it. For the...I don't remember how many times anymore.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:10 AM   #26
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If we add up all of the potentially usable data, were the most complete and unfiltered samples lost?
No
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:14 AM   #27
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If we add up all of the potentially usable data, were the most complete and unfiltered samples lost?
I didn't say "potentially usable." I said "usable."

We're not going to ignore the nuances just so you can drive the question to a harsh binary and have your "gotcha!" moment. The argument is that the decision to reuse the Apollo 11 telemetry tapes was so apparently unwise as to be suspicious. Insisting on framing it in hindsight is artificial sustenance for that argument.

The question has two parts. The first is whether the people who made the decision to erase the original data considered it important, which includes the question of whether it was usable in that form. The second is whether the decision should be framed as a conscious decision to erase original data, or whether it might have been a reluctant lesser-of-two-evils decision.

That the original data no longer exists is simply an unfortunate fact. Whether that should objectively rise to the boggling of the mind you expressed earlier is up for debate. It's not a "gotcha!" question.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:16 AM   #28
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Sigh. I was trying to avoid the technical aspects because he has no chance of remotely understanding a single bit of it (haha). You get that pun, he does not.

I tried to avoid it, but if we must delve in to the technicalities, so be it. For the...I don't remember how many times anymore.
I believe the technicalities are an important part of the question. They frame the value of the original telemetry data to the people who made the decision to reuse the media. It doesn't matter whether Warp12 can or wants to understand those details. If he wants to have a simplistic understanding of the problem, then the boggling of his mind can be written off as a simplistic judgment. I'm giving him the opportunity -- should he choose -- have having a more enlightened opinion.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:18 AM   #29
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by JayUtah
That the original data no longer exists is simply an unfortunate fact. Whether that should objectively rise to the boggling of the mind you expressed earlier is up for debate. It's not a "gotcha!" question.
An unfortunate, and entirely avoidable fact. One that can't be buried in digital ink.

The important consideration is that somehow, amazingly, that data was lost.

Last edited by Warp12; 30th January 2022 at 10:19 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:24 AM   #30
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
An unfortunate, and entirely avoidable fact. One that can't be buried in digital ink.
I'm not "burying" it. I'm framing it in the proper circumstantial detail. The disagreement is not over the facts. The disagreement is over the interpretation of the facts and their implications for the authenticity of the Apollo project. Your knee-jerk, armchair analysis ignores important details.

Quote:
The important consideration is that somehow, amazingly, that data was lost.
For the reasons given, I disagree with your amazement, with your unwillingness to investigate the "somehow," and your evaluation of the importance of that data in that form.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:26 AM   #31
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That the original data no longer exists is simply an unfortunate fact. Whether that should objectively rise to the boggling of the mind you expressed earlier is up for debate. It's not a "gotcha!" question.
A lot of us do find it stunning, whether justifiably or not. Kind of like the House of Representatives saying "oh, we don't know where the original Constitution went. Probably wrote over it during a paper shortage. No prob though, we made copies". True though it may be, it sounds absurd to a layperson.
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:28 AM   #32
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If we add up all of the potentially usable data, were the most complete and unfiltered samples lost?
For the Apollo11 EVA, yes. They haven't found the original tapes, to my knowledge, and been able to say, "this was it, it's erased", so it can't be confirmed destroyed. It's possible it's still in existence, but no one knows. The only reason it was searched for was in the hope that it might offer a sharper image quality, but that wasn't guaranteed.

The rest of the photography and transmissions are preserved. Every 70mm and 16mm negative, all the TV broadcast tapes, and the tapes of voice communications.

As has been pointed out, the actual broadcast of that first EVA couldn't be used anywhere else, so only the NTSC conversion was considered important. At this time, NASA wasn't employing historians. The engineers were more concerned about getting the crews back safely, and getting the scientific data, in that order. The fact that a piece of original data of very limited usability was overlooked in favor of a converted direct copy that could be used anywhere, and showed the same images, isn't the least bit mind boggling when one simply considers the complexity of a decade long project and the greater concerns of engineers and technical directors who had men's lives in their hands.

Candace Owens is stupidly parroting a common, but utterly ******** misapprehension repeatedly propagated by ignorant, self-styled "experts".
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:34 AM   #33
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'm not "burying" it. I'm framing it in the proper circumstantial detail. The disagreement is not over the facts. The disagreement is over the interpretation of the facts and their implications for the authenticity of the Apollo project. Your knee-jerk, armchair analysis ignores important details.



For the reasons given, I disagree with your amazement, with your unwillingness to investigate the "somehow," and your evaluation of the importance of that data in that form.
Your argument pretty much collapses because I don't deny the moon landing.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:39 AM   #34
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It wasn't compatible with anything. For Apollo 11 the television signal was embedded in the telemetry. You literally needed an Ampex telemetry recorder, properly configured, and a bunch of custom, one-off television equipment to view it. It was critical to read that out into a standard format, using the one-off equipment one time, and then that standard-format recording is considered the "original footage."
I used to have a pdf of a really cook book about the Apollo TV broadcasts, but I haven't been able to find it again, so far. It had a lot of cool details about the various cameras, antennae, formats, technical aspects of the cameras, the workings of the DSN (including signal routing to NASA facilities) etcetera. And all broken down by specific Apollo missions.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:44 AM   #35
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
It's possible it's still in existence, but no one knows.
Telemetry tapes from completed missions are not generally important. They're useful while the mission is ongoing, and possibly for a short time afterward, to diagnose faults. But they aren't considered a valuable historical record. The reason they aren't routinely reused is because -- as I said before -- the recorders are hard on the tape. Telemetry records use lots of heads and run at a high speed. It's almost always preferable to use new tapes.

Old tapes can be reused, if needed. But they can't be recycled and it's cheaper to store them than to destroy them.

Quote:
The only reason it was searched for was in the hope that it might offer a sharper image quality, but that wasn't guaranteed.
Right, only because some hobbyists got interested in seeing whether old tapes could be read, and had some luck reading the tapes from some of the old orbiters. In this one case, the telemetry also included the video, something that would not be repeated on other missions.

It both cases the original data will have to be transformed. The first transformation process resulted in a standard NTSC video signal we have now. Assuming the tape can be read at all, a new read-out of the telemetry might contain more detail and more gray tones, but -- as you say -- there is no guarantee of that. And it's just another transformation of the original data.

Quote:
The rest of the photography and transmissions are preserved. Every 70mm and 16mm negative, all the TV broadcast tapes, and the tapes of voice communications.
The live TV was a gimmick. There were many who wanted to delete television entirely from Apollo 11 as they considered it a secondary detail to the very much more important problems of actually accomplishing the landing. That's why it was so ad hoc.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:48 AM   #36
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Your argument pretty much collapses because I don't deny the moon landing.
I didn't say or think that you did. But you say you're amazed that original, presumed-unusable, data may have been destroyed. How interested are you in having a better-informed opinion?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:51 AM   #37
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I didn't say or think that you did. But you say you're amazed that original, presumed-unusable, data may have been destroyed. How interested are you in having a better-informed opinion?
Was the most complete raw data preserved or not?
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:55 AM   #38
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Was the most complete raw data preserved or not?
So not interested at all. Got it.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 10:56 AM   #39
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Your argument pretty much collapses because I don't deny the moon landing.
But you have to argue about something. So you're going to argue in defense of your inexpert opinion that it's "mind boggling" that a piece of tape was lost, when direct copies of that tape exist.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2022, 11:00 AM   #40
Warp12
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Was the most complete raw data preserved or not?
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So not interested at all. Got it.
Avoidance of question noted. And why? It is a simple question.

Last edited by Warp12; 30th January 2022 at 11:02 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:20 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.