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Tags apollo hoax , Candace Owens , moon landing hoax , NASA conspiracies

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Old 30th January 2022, 11:02 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Avoidance of question noted. And why?
Question was already answered. As to further discussion of it, that's what I've been trying to have with you. But you insist on returning to the "gotcha!" moment and ignoring everything else. So I conclude that you're not interested in expanding your understanding.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:09 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Was the most complete raw data preserved or not?
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Question was already answered. As to further discussion of it, that's what I've been trying to have with you. But you insist on returning to the "gotcha!" moment and ignoring everything else. So I conclude that you're not interested in expanding your understanding.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Avoidance of question noted. And why? It is a simple question.
Answer the simple question. It isn't a "gotcha". But the avoidance says a lot.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:12 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Answer the simple question. It isn't a "gotcha". But the avoidance says a lot.
I answered your question in this post, and you acknowledged the answer in this post. And I've gone into substantial detail around it, which seems to disinterest you. I'm not the one with the avoidance problem.

Last edited by JayUtah; 30th January 2022 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:13 AM   #44
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Now I don't doubt the authenticity of Shakespeare, but so far as we know the printer did not preserve the type set to print the first folio and astonishingly may have reused it to print other stuff. Makes you think, right?
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Answer the simple question. It isn't a "gotcha". But the avoidance says a lot.
He isn't avoiding it. As he stated, it's already been answered. He's trying to explain why it isn't "mind boggling" for that one tape to be lost. I'll bet much of the original tape and film from the Tet Offensive has been lost over the years. Is that mind boggling?

The fact that you want to avoid a discussion of why it isn't that big a deal and focus on the "tape was lost" narrative (which, as presented by the conspiracy theorists inspiring Candace Owens' idiotic Tweet is a gross misrepresentation implying that all of the original data has been "mysteriously" lost) says rather a lot.

Like I said, you have to argue about something.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I answered your question in this post, and you acknowledged the answer in this post. And I've gone into substantial detail around it, which seems to disinterest you. I'm not the one with the avoidance problem.
Warp doesn't care. He's politically aligned with Owens so is duty-bound to defend her lunacy, any way he can.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:25 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Warp doesn't care. He's politically aligned with Owens so is duty-bound to defend her lunacy, any way he can.
Be that as it may. I have far too much else to do today than to waste it attempting to educate the willfully ignorant.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:38 AM   #48
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oops, I have the original "footage" in my head

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
You might want to learn about the history of visual presentations, broadcast video/TV, etc.

I saw the live broadcast from the moon... thus I have the original footage, in my head...

LOL< original footage? Is that in feet, or fps... do you know how it was done?

The original "footage" is preserved, since it was broadcast...

WHAT is your point? Have you fallen for the insanity and stupidity it take to believe Apollo was fake?
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Last edited by beachnut; 30th January 2022 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 30th January 2022, 11:41 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
You might want to learn about the history of visual presentations, broadcast video/TV, etc.

I saw the live broadcast from the moon... thus I have the original footage, in my head...

LOL< original footage? Is that in feet, or fps... do you know how it was done?

The original "footage" is preserved, since it was broadcast...

WHAT is your point? Have you fallen for the insanity and stupidity it take to believe Apollo was fake?
I saw it too and I bet my footage is better than yours!
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Old 30th January 2022, 12:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Candace Owens
What’s the one “conspiracy theory” that no matter what anyone says you believe is true.
Mine is that Candace Owens does not really believe that the moon landing in 1969 was completely faked. I just cannot. And heard it from an extremely reliable source…
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Old 30th January 2022, 12:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Avoidance of question noted. And why? It is a simple question.
But you didn't understand the simple answers given.

Or even the easy point, belabored here and many times elsewhere, that mental constructs; i.e. cultural artifacts such as "perfect" and "pure", fall apart when examined. There hasn't been any sort of seemless uniformity in nature since, I dunno, moment 10-gazillion after the BB, so these concepts are moot since before day one. To the point: This means defining "best" data involves the criteria and necessary choices already provided, not a search for some mythical and less useful absolute.
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Old 30th January 2022, 01:01 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Warp doesn't care. He's politically aligned with Owens so is duty-bound to defend her lunacy, any way he can.
I may be vaguely politically aligned with Owens according to some spectrum theory of political alignment, but that doesn't mean I'm epistemologically aligned with her every misconception or willful ignorance.
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Old 30th January 2022, 01:36 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Now I don't doubt the authenticity of Shakespeare, but so far as we know the printer did not preserve the type set to print the first folio and astonishingly may have reused it to print other stuff. Makes you think, right?
Funny, I was about to use just about the same thing. So I'll have to change my era I guess. The argument here sounds a little as if one shouldn't trust the readout of a ticker tape unless you have audio of the machine clicking.
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Old 30th January 2022, 02:22 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Which "original footage" would that be?
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What 'original footage' do you think hasn't been preserved?
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wow. You really have no clue.
This tends to happen when you have someone who has utterly no clue about the subject material, firing off a knee-jerk response to an off the wall tweet from an idiot conspracy theorist

In all likelihood, the first time he ever heard of an issue with Apollo footage was when he read it in Owens' airheaded tweet.

*** that sound you hear is desperate keyboard tapping as someone furiously searches the internet to find enough information to claim they knew about it all along. The problem is, as someone else right here in this thread once said "You can Google for information, but you cannot Google for understanding"
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Old 30th January 2022, 03:00 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
I saw it too and I bet my footage is better than yours!
Candace might not realize it was live and converted to NTSC on the fly, as I recall. She has no clue from the Slow-scan television (SSTV) camera/system, to the antenna to transmit back to earth, to the stations the USA had around the world for Apollo/Space telemetry, the complexity of the task. Clueless Candace.


I recorded the footage, live, with my 17 year old hippocampus multi-channel recorder, the "tape footage" now over 52 years old... how do I back up this "tape" before... (the camera was A1 standard eyeball, >20/10 vision then)

https://www.scienceandmediamuseum.or...o-11-broadcast
Some history...
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Old 30th January 2022, 03:08 PM   #56
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Quote:
team of retired NASA employees and contractors tried to find the tapes in the early 2000s but was unable to do so. The search was sparked when several still photographs appeared in the late 1990s that showed the visually superior raw SSTV transmission on ground-station monitors. The research team conducted a multi-year investigation in the hopes of finding the most pristine and detailed video images of the moonwalk. If copies of the original SSTV format tapes were to be found, more modern digital technology could make a higher-quality conversion, yielding better images than those originally seen. The researchers concluded that the tapes containing the raw unprocessed Apollo 11 SSTV signal were erased and reused by NASA in the early 1980s, following standard procedure at the time

...

NASA held a news conference at the Newseum, in Washington, D.C. regarding the missing tapes on July 16, 2009 – the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11's launch from Cape Kennedy.[3] The multinational research team looking into the missing tapes—mostly retired engineers who had worked on the original broadcast in 1969—was represented at the event by Richard Nafzger from the Goddard Space Flight Center and Stanley Lebar, the former lead engineer at Westinghouse who developed the Apollo Lunar Camera and the Apollo Color Camera.[13] They concluded that the data tapes—with the SSTV signal—were shipped from Australia to Goddard and then routinely erased and reused a few years later.
You folks amuse me. You are so anxious to find a CT devil that you deny basic facts. Too bad they erased those tapes. What a shame.
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Old 30th January 2022, 03:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You folks amuse me. You are so anxious to find a CT devil that you deny basic facts. Too bad they erased those tapes. What a shame.
It is a shame, but that's all it is.There is nothing of any use on those tapes that doesn't exist elsewhere. If they did exist, the hoaxnut crowd wouldn't understand or believe anything in them anyway.
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Old 30th January 2022, 03:48 PM   #58
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Here's the last time the topic of the missing tapes came up on the forum that I recall, before every thread became a venue for political point scoring:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=apollo+erased

The conclusion back then was that what was lost was higher quality footage than what survives.

This is the article mentioned in that thread:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090719...sci_moon_video

It talks about 45 tapes containing better quality video having been wiped. Those 45 tapes were amongst 200,000 that were erased, but it looks like they were just lost in the middle of 199,955 tapes of crap. Each tape contained 15 minutes, so that would be 11hrs 15mins of video. Supposedly the conversion mechanism used at the time meant that 40% of the detail that was on those tapes is lost.

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Old 30th January 2022, 04:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You folks amuse me. You are so anxious to find a CT devil that you deny basic facts. Too bad they erased those tapes. What a shame.
You appear to have some serious reading compression issues. Please show us any statement made in this thread claiming certainty that the tapes still exist with the raw slow-scan, pre-conversion images. For that matter, please show a single post in this thread where any of us "folks" personally accuse you of of being an Apollo conspiracy theorist.

The article you didn't link to says some other things that you either didn't quote or didn't highlight.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
At the time, the NTSC broadcast was recorded on many videotapes and kinescope films. Many of these low-quality recordings remain intact. As the real-time broadcast worked and was widely recorded, preservation of the backup video was not deemed a priority in the years immediately following the mission. In the early 1980s, NASA's Landsat program was facing a severe data tape shortage and it is likely the tapes were erased and reused at this time.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Although the researchers never found the telemetry tapes, they did discover the best visual quality NTSC videotapes as well as Super 8 movie film taken of a video monitor in Australia, showing the SSTV transmission before it was converted.
Since nothing you quoted contradicts anything anyone else has said, what exactly was your point?
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:05 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
You appear to have some serious reading compression issues. Please show us any statement made in this thread claiming certainty that the tapes still exist with the raw slow-scan, pre-conversion images. For that matter, please show a single post in this thread where any of us "folks" personally accuse you of of being an Apollo conspiracy theorist.

The article you didn't link to says some other things that you either didn't quote or didn't highlight.





Since nothing you quoted contradicts anything anyone else has said, what exactly was your point?
That is a lot of words devoted to arguing about...something? Much like the rest of this thread.

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Old 30th January 2022, 04:06 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
You appear to have some serious reading compression issues. Please show us any statement made in this thread claiming certainty that the tapes still exist with the raw slow-scan, pre-conversion images. For that matter, please show a single post in this thread where any of us "folks" personally accuse you of of being an Apollo conspiracy theorist.

The article you didn't link to says some other things that you either didn't quote or didn't highlight.

Since nothing you quoted contradicts anything anyone else has said, what exactly was your point?
It was that he found something to nitpick to the max.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:12 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is a lot of words devoted to arguing about...something? Much like the rest of this thread.
I'll take that as an admission that you can't point to any of us "folks" having claimed that the original Apollo 11 EVA slow-scan format tapes still exist, nor where anyone called you a conspiracy theorist.

You seem to have found a way to argue about nothing.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:13 PM   #63
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It's nothing to do with whether the moon landings happened. Just politics. Owens is a Trumper, Warp has to defend her no matter what.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:15 PM   #64
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Honestly if Warp wants to believe they should have retained those particular copies, and hold it against them that they didn't, that's fine with me. If he wants to argue that it's evidence of a hoax... that's also fine with me.

At this point you might as well just link him to one of the threads on ApolloHoax where this and other canards are thoroughly addressed, and leave him to stew in his own juices.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:16 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
Thank you for raising the most important question in this thread, which is how some people's minds can be 'boggled' by relatively mundane facts.

It must be disheartening to discover that you share this trait with a known conspiracy theorist and Trump supporter.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You folks amuse me.
In what way?

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You are so anxious to find a CT devil that you deny basic facts.
What facts in particular.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Too bad they erased those tapes.
Which tapes

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What a shame.
It is a shame that you have no clue what you are talking about
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:24 PM   #67
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it was a live event

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is a lot of words devoted to arguing about...something?
You never had a point, just because the telemetry tapes are lost, does not mean there was not live recordings of a live TV broadcast, which is the first real "footage".

It was live event... darn, and it was recorded.

Did you have a point other than you don't understand SSTV, do you understand the Kinescope recorded of the live event, thus is original footage. Doubt you could read the telemetry tapes, or even understand the "information theory" technology to make it possible...

The science needed to pull off live TV transmitted from the Moon is complicated, no wonder you and Candace Owens don't understand it. It is complex, do you want to see the Kinescope? Some of them?

What about the other moon missions, got problems with them? I expect this from anti-vaxxer Candace Owens.

Do Kinescope and video tape recorded at the time of a live event count as original "footage"?

https://www.scienceandmediamuseum.or...o-11-broadcast

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The only thing I agree about is that it is mind-boggling that they would have not preserved the original footage.
It was live... you missed the original if you were not there in 1969... original was live... oops, some people recorded the live event, does that count?

650 million viewers, did you miss it? Lucky it was recorded on various platforms.




I saw it live, that day... guess you missed it.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:30 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Honestly if Warp wants to believe they should have retained those particular copies, and hold it against them that they did it, that's fine with me. If he wants to argue that it's evidence of a hoax... that's also fine with me.

At this point you might as well just link him to one of the threads on ApolloHoax where this and other canards are thoroughly addressed, and leave him to stew in his own juices.
In principle, yes. In practice, no. There is nobody there anymore.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:42 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Here's the last time the topic of the missing tapes came up on the forum that I recall, before every thread became a venue for political point scoring:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=apollo+erased

The conclusion back then was that what was lost was higher quality footage than what survives.
To further comment on that, archiving of TV broadcasts wasn't a big desire back in the 1960s. It was the early days of tape, and video tape was very, very, VERY expensive, and were routinely wiped for reuse. This is why there are no copies of early episodes of classic TV programs and serials such as Dr Who, Sir Francis Drake, The Avengers, Out of the Unknown and Z Cars.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:45 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
It is a shame, but that's all it is.There is nothing of any use on those tapes that doesn't exist elsewhere. If they did exist, the hoaxnut crowd wouldn't understand or believe anything in them anyway.
All it would take would be one stupid person to say "the tapes were faked" or someone who objects to their having been unattended fora half hour, and we'd be right back where we started.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:48 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In principle, yes. In practice, no. There is nobody there anymore.
Yeah, but the discussion survives, and addresses every point he might possibly think of to raise.

Now THAT would actually be interesting! If Warp (or Owens) managed to raise an Apollo Hoax complaint that nobody else had thought of before.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:59 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
To further comment on that, archiving of TV broadcasts wasn't a big desire back in the 1960s. It was the early days of tape, and video tape was very, very, VERY expensive, and were routinely wiped for reuse. This is why there are no copies of early episodes of classic TV programs and serials such as Dr Who, Sir Francis Drake, The Avengers, Out of the Unknown and Z Cars.
I'm well aware of the loss of the BBC archive. Unlike those, this looks like it was just lost and forgotten in amongst a bunch of old junk that was thrown out. The BBC destroyed their stuff far more intentionally. It was only 45 tapes, afterall. Normally, we look at that and agree it's unfortunate, rather than adamantly claiming that nothing was lost because a super 8 of somebody's TV screen supplies one half of a broadcast, and a 16mm transfer of most of the rest was found in a shed in Australia, or quibbling over whether the original footage is the live broadcast, or the poorer quality recording that was made by pointing a movie camera at a TV counts as the "original footage".

The arguing over this is pointless. From what I can see, nobody remotely connected to this conversation is even seriously claiming the moonlandings were a hoax, or claimed that the lost tapes were proof of a hoax.

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Old 30th January 2022, 05:01 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'd love to see her engineering computations.
But does she have a million Euro "evidently" in the bank if you can provide them for her?
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, but the discussion survives, and addresses every point he might possibly think of to raise.

Now THAT would actually be interesting! If Warp (or Owens) managed to raise an Apollo Hoax complaint that nobody else had thought of before.
... and which would in reality be a previous bit of nonsense dressed up differently, and will have already been repeatedly, thoroughly and scientifically debunked

Oh, and by the way, there are still posters at Apollohoax, there just isn't much for them to do now that the hoax believer morons are so few in numbers. Occasionally we get a new HB with a rehashed version of something. They get handed their arse pretty quick these days.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:11 PM   #75
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Somewhere above, I see someone noted that Owens doesn't likely actually believe in the hoax. A sign of the times, I guess, that once again there should be a question of whether the sheer stupidity of a statement is mitigated by its being a lie.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:11 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm well aware of the loss of the BBC archive. Unlike those, this looks like it was just lost and forgotten in amongst a bunch of old junk that was thrown out. The BBC destroyed their stuff far more intentionally. It was only 45 tapes, afterall. Normally, we look at that and agree it's unfortunate, rather than adamantly claiming that nothing was lost because a super 8 of somebody's TV screen supplies one half of a broadcast, and a 16mm transfer of most of the rest was found in a shed in Australia, or quibbling over whether the original footage is the live broadcast, or the poorer quality recording that was made by pointing a movie camera at a TV counts as the "original footage".

The arguing over this is pointless. From what I can see, nobody remotely connected to this conversation is even seriously claiming the moonlandings were a hoax, or claimed that the lost tapes were proof of a hoax.
There's a member over at Apollohoax (apollo16uvc) who has tracked down some old 1" Ampex tapes with "Apollo XI Landing 7-20-1969" and "Apollo XI Moon Walk 7-20-1969" labels on the boxes, and is in the process of trying to see if they are recoverable.

https://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1862.0
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:18 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
... The arguing over this is pointless. From what I can see, nobody remotely connected to this conversation is even seriously claiming the moonlandings were a hoax, or claimed that the lost tapes were proof of a hoax.
Well, the person whose tweet is the subject of the thread seemingly believes it.

I'm more curious about her remark about "the fuel tank size". What's that about? I presume she didn't perform her own calculations and lifted the idea from somewhere but it's not a CT line I'm familiar with.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:18 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, but the discussion survives, and addresses every point he might possibly think of to raise.

Now THAT would actually be interesting! If Warp (or Owens) managed to raise an Apollo Hoax complaint that nobody else had thought of before.
How long have we been steamrollering the Apollo fake nonsense by now? Decades.

Face it. we got mileage on our clocks at this point. I first engaged in the apollo fake nuttery back in my twenties. That is thirty frakkin years ago. Warp probably is not even that old.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:21 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There's a member over at Apollohoax (apollo16uvc) who has tracked down some old 1" Ampex tapes with "Apollo XI Landing 7-20-1969" and "Apollo XI Moon Walk 7-20-1969" labels on the boxes, and is in the process of trying to see if they are recoverable.

https://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1862.0
That is exciting. Thanks for the comment. For a moment, it feels like the old JREF days again :-)
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:23 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, the person whose tweet is the subject of the thread seemingly believes it.

I'm more curious about her remark about "the fuel tank size". What's that about? I presume she didn't perform her own calculations and lifted the idea from somewhere but it's not a CT line I'm familiar with.
That is often due to their only being 5 seconds of fuel left when they landed. CTs often refuse to believe their was another rocket with another fuel tank involved.
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