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Tags apollo hoax , Candace Owens , moon landing hoax , NASA conspiracies

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Old 30th January 2022, 05:23 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is a lot of words devoted to arguing about...something? Much like the rest of this thread.
Well, there’s not much to argue about. It’s true that Owens really is profoundly stupid. It’s true that it’s a minor too-bad that the telemetry tapes with the video encoding had to be reused, but it’s also true that all the Apollo 11 video footage still exists, if in a slightly less sharp form. It’s also true that the video footage was a very small part of the imagery returned by Apollo 11, and a really really tiny part of the imagery returned by all the Apollo missions. Finally, it’s also true that imagery itself was just part of the overall Apollo record.

But for me, the takeaway of this thread is that Owens really is profoundly stupid.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:25 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, the person whose tweet is the subject of the thread seemingly believes it.

I'm more curious about her remark about "the fuel tank size". What's that about? I presume she didn't perform her own calculations and lifted the idea from somewhere but it's not a CT line I'm familiar with.
Do you really think she believes it? She is calling these "lighthearted conspiracy theories" and is putting crying smileys on her new favourite conspiracy theory that "Rebecca Black's song "Friday" is about the Kennedy assassination".
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:31 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What a shame.
Agreed. However, given the circumstances, I see nothing amazing or mind-bogging about it.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:41 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
And so is baseball. There's no way a ball can keep moving after it has left the pitcher's hand. What's pushing it all the way to home plate?
Settle down, Aristotle.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:43 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is a lot of words devoted to arguing about...something? Much like the rest of this thread.
You really think you've discovered something that sincere CTists haven't raised in old threads huh?
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:47 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Settle down, Aristotle.
I think Zeno wants a word too.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:53 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Agreed. However, given the circumstances, I see nothing amazing or mind-bogging about it.
Or sinister.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:56 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Poe’s Law, mate.
You don't need Poe's law when something is described as lighthearted and there are laughing/crying smileys on it.
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:57 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
As I suggested above, there may be multiple possibilities but what are the choices? A stupid belief, a stupid lie that just happens to play to the believers, or perhaps a stupid joke that just happens to play to the believers (but has an escape clause)? I think you would have to stretch things pretty far to find an explanation that a reasonable or honorable person should not be ashamed of.
OK, so that's one bid for "profoundly dishonest". Do we have any more takers?
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Old 30th January 2022, 05:58 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Or sinister.
Hey, my parents were left handed! Why do you hate my parents?
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Old 30th January 2022, 06:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You don't need Poe's law when something is described as lighthearted and there are laughing/crying smileys on it.
There are no smilies on it. You are the one completely mischaracterising the post.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealCanda...gs-were-a-hoax
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Old 30th January 2022, 06:52 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You don't need Poe's law when something is described as lighthearted and there are laughing/crying smileys on it.
She deliberately wrote things. Those things were profoundly stupid. Sure, we know she’s dishonest as well, given her other dull-witted trolling, but I’m under no obligation to give her the benefit of the doubt that this time she isn’t just as profoundly dumb as any other ignoramus talking about “the moon landing in 1969”, rather than just having a laugh at something she doesn’t know anything at all about.

Last edited by sts60; 30th January 2022 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 30th January 2022, 06:53 PM   #93
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Learning the details of what they did and how they did it was always way more exciting than trying to find excuses not to believe in it, or to **** on it.

I know I get called a contrarian in certain curmudgeonly quarters (and the irony is not lost on me). But really I'm a romantic. You start to **** on something, I start looking for redeeming qualities and mitigating circumstances.
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Old 30th January 2022, 07:08 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
As I suggested above, there may be multiple possibilities but what are the choices? A stupid belief, a stupid lie that just happens to play to the believers, or perhaps a stupid joke that just happens to play to the believers (but has an escape clause)? I think you would have to stretch things pretty far to find an explanation that a reasonable or honorable person should not be ashamed of.
Thanks for this. You said it better than I did. I vote for “stupid belief”, but at least this one won’t get anybody killed. It’s just another bit of cultural vandalism.
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Old 30th January 2022, 09:24 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There's a member over at Apollohoax (apollo16uvc) who has tracked down some old 1" Ampex tapes with "Apollo XI Landing 7-20-1969" and "Apollo XI Moon Walk 7-20-1969" labels on the boxes, and is in the process of trying to see if they are recoverable.

https://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1862.0
Oh yes. That was a good forum. Just stay away from their political threads. When I mentioned that some of the "evidence" they were using to support a couple of their claims was equivalent to the logically fallacious and otherwise unjustified "evidence" CT-ists used, I received backlash in a manner also similar to what a CT-ist would display. Eventually, the owner banned me, with no prior suspension or actual violation of the rules. It was a lesson for me as to how easily the critical mind (the site owner's in this case) can become disrupted by emotion.

I now receive this message if I try to log on:

Screenshot (10).jpg

Okay, done whining. Sorry for any hi-jack.
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Old 30th January 2022, 10:26 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You don't need Poe's law when something is described as lighthearted and there are laughing/crying smileys on it.
Unfortunately, "only kidding" is the catch-cry of right wing morons (including some right here on this forum) who want to say something they are serious about but want cover in case they are ridiculed for it.

Actual skeptics and critical thinkers here have been burned by the bull-**** these half-wits spew so often that they are no longer willing to cut them any slack.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:10 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You guys are so starved for a CT entry that these statements somehow created a stir:

No claim of a hoax or sinister motives.

It's pretty crazy. What I've realized, as stated before, is that devout online "skeptics" are part of their own religion. And it is just like any other.
So when you can't respond to a question without admitting that you were wrong, you simply ignore it and plow ahead as if you weren't wrong - and as if no one else can see you being wrong.

I asked you to point out where anyone had called you an Apollo denier or had claimed that the original slow-scan magnetic tapes still exist. You can't do either, so you have to ignore that question and keep on truckin' as though you have been called an Apollo conspiracy theorist, and as though you just proved anyone wrong by linking to an article that says what others have already told you.

We've made it clear that we think Candace Owens' promotion of the Apollo conspiracy theory, earnest or not, is garden variety stupidity. It's also clear that others have engaged you only regarding your statement you find it "mind-boggling" that they would not have preserved the "original footage".


--------------------

The above is 155 words, up from the 90 that you declared to be "a lot of words". If 30 seconds of reading time is too challenging, I could make an effort to use smaller words and simpler sentences.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:17 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
So when you can't respond to a question without admitting that you were wrong, you simply ignore it and plow ahead as if you weren't wrong - and as if no one else can see you being wrong.
Wrong about what? That the most complete data feed (in that aspect) for one of the most notable accomplishments in human history was apparently lost? That it is mind-boggling that this would be allowed to occur? I hope like-minded people aren't in charge of NASA when man sets foot on Mars.

Not sure what you are puffing up about, here.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:20 AM   #99
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It wasn't considered important as all he data is available elsewhere in more accessible formats.
The tapes were never meant to be a part of a permanent record.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:24 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It wasn't considered important as all he data is available elsewhere in more accessible formats.
Is it?

Quote:
If copies of the original SSTV format tapes were to be found, more modern digital technology could make a higher-quality conversion, yielding better images than those originally seen.
Personally, I'd like to see the best possible examples of this glorious accomplishment.

Last edited by Warp12; 31st January 2022 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:30 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Wrong about what?
Wrong about anyone calling you an Apollo conspiracy theorist, and wrong about anyone claiming that the pre NTSC conversion tapes still exist.

To be fair, I don't think it's an actual reading compression issue on your part. You simply can't admit that you were wrong about either of those two auto-crucifixion claims.


----------------
Was that few enough words for you?
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:31 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Is it?



Personally, I'd like to see the best possible examples of this glorious accomplishment.
You won't see anything new though, there is no more video that we haven't already seen.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:38 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Wrong about anyone calling you an Apollo conspiracy theorist, and wrong about anyone claiming that the pre NTSC conversion tapes still exist.

To be fair, I don't think it's an actual reading compression issue on your part. You simply can't admit that you were wrong about either of those two auto-crucifixion claims.


----------------
Was that few enough words for you?

Wrong. On both counts.

First, it is implied here that my statements were somehow rooted in CT:

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The disagreement is over the interpretation of the facts and their implications for the authenticity of the Apollo project.
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The argument is that the decision to reuse the Apollo 11 telemetry tapes was so apparently unwise as to be suspicious. Insisting on framing it in hindsight is artificial sustenance for that argument.

Secondly, where did I make any claims about the tapes still existing, or anything related to that?
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:41 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Personally, I'd like to see the best possible examples of this glorious accomplishment.
Yeah, 4K Ultra images would be awesome, wouldn't they?

Too bad we'll never have slightly better images than the ones already recovered by the archive team.

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Old 31st January 2022, 06:43 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Unfortunately, "only kidding" is the catch-cry of right wing morons (including some right here on this forum) who want to say something they are serious about but want cover in case they are ridiculed for it.

Actual skeptics and critical thinkers here have been burned by the bull-**** these half-wits spew so often that they are no longer willing to cut them any slack.
Maybe the critical thinkers left on the forums just interpret right wing statements like autists? It's been going on a long while where the *cough* liberal *cough* posters go on and on about some meaning they infer in some public statement, and then you go over to Republican forums and they aren't taking it like that at all.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:51 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Wrong. On both counts.

First, it is implied here that my statements were somehow rooted in CT:
Does he specifically say that you are doing that? The thread was started regarding Owens' idiotic parroting of a CT trope.

Quote:
Secondly, where did I make any claims about the tapes still existing, or anything related to that?
In post #56, you highlighted text from the Wikipedia article about the tapes most likely being erased. Then you wrote, "You folks amuse me. You are so anxious to find a CT devil that you deny basic facts. Too bad they erased those tapes. What a shame".

So what was the point of that post? To express your amusement that you'd found a source confirming what you'd already been told in this thread?
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Old 31st January 2022, 07:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Is it?
Yes.
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Old 31st January 2022, 07:09 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That it is mind-boggling that this would be allowed to occur?
Strange that the only people whose minds are boggled about this are conspiracy theorists. Do you really want to throw in with that crowd? Grabbing data from spaceships is in my line of work. I've done it for decades. My mind isn't boggled at all. Old telemetry just isn't that important.

Quote:
Not sure what you are puffing up about, here.
Not quite sure how your mind being boggled matters. Do you think everyone else's mind should boggle as well?

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Old 31st January 2022, 07:23 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
First, it is implied here that my statements were somehow rooted in CT
"Implied." I never claimed you were an Apollo conspiracy theorist and you never said you were. Stop trying to be a victim. That you're borrowing one of their talking points is abundantly evident, which is why I asked if you were interested in having a better-informed opinion. It was under the assumption that you didn't want to be identified with conspiracy theorists. I still believe you don't want to be, but it appears you're more interested in tying everything up in knots that understanding why the curators of that data did what they did.
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Old 31st January 2022, 07:39 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Yeah, 4K Ultra images would be awesome, wouldn't they?

Too bad we'll never have slightly better images than the ones already recovered by the archive team.

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Would recommend Dutchsteammachine on Youtube, he's done some great video "conversions" to higher res and framerates. E.g.

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Old 31st January 2022, 07:43 AM   #111
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You can see the moment where somebody opens a door on the sound stage and the wind catches the flag at 9min11s
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Old 31st January 2022, 08:32 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Strange that the only people whose minds are boggled about this are conspiracy theorists. Do you really want to throw in with that crowd? Grabbing data from spaceships is in my line of work. I've done it for decades. My mind isn't boggled at all. Old telemetry just isn't that important.



Not quite sure how your mind being boggled matters. Do you think everyone else's mind should boggle as well?
Again, speaking on behalf of laypersons: it seems like original Apollo data would be...you know, priceless. Sort of like a copy of the gun that Burr used to shoot Jefferson is not that interesting, but the actual gun is. Genuine piece of history and whatnot.

In a way, NASA's practicality is admirable. Instead of saving junior's baby shoes for posterity, they recycled them to advance their ongoing mission.
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Old 31st January 2022, 08:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

In a way, NASA's practicality is admirable. Instead of saving junior's baby shoes for posterity, they recycled them to advance their ongoing mission.
Because they were never considered part of the record
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Old 31st January 2022, 08:44 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Would recommend Dutchsteammachine on Youtube, he's done some great video "conversions" to higher res and framerates. E.g.

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Very cool! Thanks!
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Old 31st January 2022, 08:50 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, speaking on behalf of laypersons: it seems like original Apollo data would be...you know, priceless. Sort of like a copy of the gun that Burr used to shoot Jefferson is not that interesting, but the actual gun is. Genuine piece of history and whatnot.

In a way, NASA's practicality is admirable. Instead of saving junior's baby shoes for posterity, they recycled them to advance their ongoing mission.
Just imagine though. If it hadn't been for the money they saved on storing those 45 tapes, the ISS might never have been possible.
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Old 31st January 2022, 09:09 AM   #116
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hey, we recycled the tapes that have the purest data for the most monumental achievement in human history. No biggie.
The least usable data, you mean. And yes, it was a biggie. When Memorex pulled the rug out from under NASA and the Landsat data needed to be recorded or be lost forever -- in any form -- people had to make some hard choices.

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And if you find this controversial, you are in the wrong.
Given the total picture of what happened, yes, you're in the wrong. It seems that you desperately need it to be controversial. I do this for a living. It's not controversial. I have no idea why you need it to be.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove quoted breach of rule 11 and response to same

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Old 31st January 2022, 09:16 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hey, we recycled the tapes that have the purest data for the most monumental achievement in human history.
It was not 'the purest data'. It was a slightly better TV picture. We have very detailed Hasselblad stills and 16mm footage, and mountains of actual data covering this and all subsequent landings..

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No biggie.
That's correct, unless you're hell-bent on attaching some significance to it that isn't warranted.



Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove off-topic material and response to same
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Old 31st January 2022, 09:52 AM   #118
Warp12
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Do we? I've never thought so, but we are discussing something that's a conspiracy-theory talking point.

The original telemetry from Apollo 11 isn't known to exist, and was probably erased in favor of capturing new telemetry from ongoing missions -- an unfortunate exigency. But not a tragedy or an abrogation of duty, because telemetry tapes are rarely if ever considered frontline data. The embedded camera data is particularly unusable since it requires a dedicated telemetry recorder and the custom-built slow-scan converter (about the size of three refrigerators) to even view it. That's why it was immediately read out into a standard NTSC format (ironically higher resolution and frame rate than SSTV) so that it could be actually used.

If you're not interested in getting inside the heads of the people who designed, built, and operated that system, then so be it. But continuing to labor with a boggled mind under conditions of willful ignorance is probably just going to earn you mockery.
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If copies of the original SSTV format tapes were to be found, more modern digital technology could make a higher-quality conversion, yielding better images than those originally seen.
Yeah, that's about it. What you folks are arguing about, I don't know.

It is as though you are seeking to justify an incredibly stupid action.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 11 and rule 0

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Old 31st January 2022, 10:12 AM   #119
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yeah, that's about it.
The operative word is "could." I know about this project. I know the people on it and have followed it for a number of years. They aren't inevitably successful. And back in the day, the ability to do a better readout with digital technology, decades hence, wasn't contemplated. It's not as if NASA destroyed the original data for no good reason. They destroyed it because they were desperate for functional telemetry media and had little other choice.

The original television signal had a low frame rate and a low vertical resolution. Reading it out to NTSC actual up-converts it. However, since the up-conversion used an optical process -- similar to telecines and kinescopes -- there will necessarily be a tone shift. The best they could have hoped for is better gray tones, less contrast.

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It is as though you are seeking to justify an incredibly stupid action.
We're opposing your opinion that it was "incredibly stupid." And we've provided the reasons why we and many others don't think it was "incredibly stupid." You simply don't wish to engage with those reasons.

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Good for you, I suppose. It is what I expect here...because the only purpose for most is to argue.
It is a debate forum, after all.

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That is only second to those wishing to display how much they know...about everything.
I'm professionally qualified in this field. And I've made a special study of the technological history of Apollo and have written extensively on it and made television appearances. I guarantee I know more about the Apollo missions than you do. And from that position of hard-won superior understanding, I can provide reasons why your opinion is ill-informed. Rather than lording my specialized knowledge over you or anyone else, I'm here answering questions and sharing my knowledge with anyone who wants it.

Now you can either decide to be educated by people who are willing to share their knowledge with you in the hopes of helping you form a more informed opinion, or you can wallow in ignorance and snipe from the sidelines. It's pretty clear at this point what your plan is.

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Old 31st January 2022, 10:12 AM   #120
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hey, we recycled the tapes that have the purest data for the most monumental achievement in human history. No biggie.
Nice strawman. No one here has said "no biggie". I doubt there are many Apollo enthusiasts who wouldn't be delighted to hear that an original magnetic tape had been discovered in some dusty box somewhere, and that it hadn't degraded. That would be cool. As cool as when an amateur astronomer found (most likely) the S-IVB from Apollo 12 in solar orbit - or when large pieces of flown Rocketdyne F-1s were found on the Atlantic floor.

But understand that such a discovery wouldn't really show us anything we don't already know. We could, assuming pristine preservation of the tape, get a recording of the EVA TV broadcast that was slightly sharper, with a bit better contrast, than the best available images we now have.

And keep in mind that NASA's view of Apollo 11 was somewhat different than the public perception. Most people see Apollo through the eyes of a species with a fetish for firsts. First to climb a mountain peak - first to fly the Atlantic... But, while the historical significance of the first landing was not lost on NASA, Apollo 11 was not regarded as the apex of the Apollo Program. It was, to NASA, the last of the Manned Development Missions, after which the real business of scientifically exploring the moon could begin. Hell, the Apollo 11 EVA lasted only about an hour and a half, whereas Apollo17 was on the surface for three days and performed three EVAs totalling 22 hours.

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And if you find this controversial, you are in the wrong.
First, that's nothing more than your subjective opinion. Given the massive amount of scientific data, geological samples and high quality images returned by the Apollo Program, the loss of a slightly better copy of a short recording of TV images that we have complete, good quality recordings of can certainly be argued to be a relatively inconvenient loss.

Second, controversial in what way? To the CTists Owens is parroting, the word controversial is very much used in the context of "suspicious" - an implication that something is being obfuscated. If you mean in the context of incompetence, then that's a ridiculous assertion. The Apollo Program was a stunning success. The value of what was preserved far outweighs the value of a (potentially) slightly better quality example of other, still early, recordings of exactly the same event.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 0
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