IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags russia , ukraine

Closed Thread
Old 24th October 2022, 12:05 PM   #241
lobosrul5
Philosopher
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 7,349
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I have developed my own theory about this. Its probably completely wrong because I'm just a schmuck on the internet who doesn't know what I'm talking about, but here goes:

<snip>
You know, the crazier, more nonsensical ideas ones comes up with the more likely that it is actually what some Russian "braniac" is coming up with. But, more evidence is pointing to Russia does actually plan on defending Kherson. The civilian evacuation makes sense. The less people to have to feed the better given the limited routes in and out.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:14 PM   #242
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
WOW! Look at the magnificent scale of the Wagner tank traps in Ukraine, compared to the vaunted Siegfried line of Germany, which of course everyone knows worked and the allies have yet to enter German territory.

https://twitter.com/mr_gh0stly/statu...292482/photo/1
Remember that the Wagner Ptomekin line dragons teeth are also just resting on the surface whilst the Siegfried Line ones were mostly buried
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:21 PM   #243
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I have developed my own theory about this. Its probably completely wrong because I'm just a schmuck on the internet who doesn't know what I'm talking about, but here goes:

The dam at Nova Kakhovka.
  1. ...
  2. Blow the dam with an old decayed nuke, which coupled with the position of the bomb creates an enormous amount of fallout.
  3. Blame Ukraine. Even if it is correctly identified as a nuke just claim that Ukraine built one from Chernobyl crap and that it was messy because it was poorly built because the Ukrainians are ignorant children who are flailing without the firm hand of Mother to correct them. (ETA: Also allows Russia to blame Ukraine for the disruption of the Crimean water supply.)

I'm wrong. This won't happen. But my mind wanders these ways.
Problems with this:
  • It is nigh impossible to calculate how a nuke that's decayed, but not yet decayed enough to be unworking altogether, will perform: Will it go off at 90% original yield and endanger Russian units that decided not to evacuate far enough? Or will it be so weak it fails to breach the dam?
  • If one branch of the contingency plan is to claim Ukraine made in improvised nuke out of Chernobyl waste, now is the time to plant that idea into heads: The Ruscists, after all, invented a story that Ukraine has been developing biological weapons for years, so why have they not made up stories about a UA nuclear program?
  • You can't really readily build nukes from power plant stuff. After all, you don't want your power plants to explode like nukes, so their fissionable material is not enriched enough to blow up. Radioactive waste is even more impossible to make explode in a nuke. That's a lie few will believe (altough, of course, a brainwashed Russian population may)
  • It is really very easy for nuclear scientists to tell from the fallout what materials were used in a dirty or clean or formerly clean but depleted weapon. The IAEA will no doubt do an analysis and report on the results
So this story works, if at all, only on the gullible masses inside Russia.
But you could make them believe any other silly story at this point - no need to actually risk havoc with an unreliable nuke.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:27 PM   #244
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Also you can't just go "LOL not our nuke." Nuclear experts are really good at determining where nuclear material comes from.

Multiple countries, I think Sweden was the first, was able to now that a nuclear accident hat occurred in the Soviet Union and which nuclear plant it was before word of it leaked out of the Soviet Union by just analyzing the particles in the air.

Russia nukes something and The US, EU, and China bare minimum, probably others, will be able to tell who's nuke it was.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:28 PM   #245
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
WOW! Look at the magnificent scale of the Wagner tank traps in Ukraine, compared to the vaunted Siegfried line of Germany, which of course everyone knows worked and the allies have yet to enter German territory.

https://twitter.com/mr_gh0stly/statu...292482/photo/1
Holy ****** A Toyota 4WD with a winch could remove these bitches!

(By the way: I am not aware having ever heard or read the term "Siegfried line" - that's a term made up and used by the Western allies. The German word is "Westwall" - "Western Rampart".)
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

Last edited by Oystein; 24th October 2022 at 12:31 PM.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:33 PM   #246
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Those look significantly less intimidating than the red concrete crash barrier balls outside a suburban Target.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:52 PM   #247
crescent
Philosopher
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,718
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Problems with this:
[*]It is nigh impossible to calculate how a nuke that's decayed, but not yet decayed enough to be unworking altogether, will perform: Will it go off at 90% original yield and endanger Russian units that decided not to evacuate far enough? Or will it be so weak it fails to breach the dam?
That's a good point. But it also supposed that Russia views its own soldiers as something more than slaves.

Quote:
[*]If one branch of the contingency plan is to claim Ukraine made in improvised nuke out of Chernobyl waste, now is the time to plant that idea into heads: The Ruscists, after all, invented a story that Ukraine has been developing biological weapons for years, so why have they not made up stories about a UA nuclear program?
They have.
More than once.
Quote:
[*]You can't really readily build nukes from power plant stuff. After all, you don't want your power plants to explode like nukes, so their fissionable material is not enriched enough to blow up. Radioactive waste is even more impossible to make explode in a nuke. That's a lie few will believe (altough, of course, a brainwashed Russian population may)[*]It is really very easy for nuclear scientists to tell from the fallout what materials were used in a dirty or clean or formerly clean but depleted weapon. The IAEA will no doubt do an analysis and report on the results[/list]So this story works, if at all, only on the gullible masses inside Russia.
But you could make them believe any other silly story at this point - no need to actually risk havoc with an unreliable nuke.
Those are all good points. But gullible masses are not limited to Russia, they have enormous political power in the West. And they are very distrustful of science. If the greatest scientists in the world all say with 100% certainty that it was Russia and the talk show hosts, Qanon Internet personalities and TV preachers all say it was a coked up Nazi Jew, then 40% of the population will disregard the science and blame the Nazi Jew.

Last edited by crescent; 24th October 2022 at 12:54 PM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:57 PM   #248
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
The Siegfried dragon's teeth were reinforced concrete pyramids buried one to two meters in the ground, and projecting one to two meters above it. They were closely spaced, and usually in several rows with taller teeth in the back.

The Wagner dragon's teeth look like someone saw a picture of the Siegfried line, and thought they were just the above-ground part. And also couldn't afford to install them in the depth and density required.

Meanwhile, Ukraine is receiving shipments of combat engineering vehicles that should be able to make short work of these "fortifications".
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 12:58 PM   #249
lobosrul5
Philosopher
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 7,349
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Holy ****** A Toyota 4WD with a winch could remove these bitches!

(By the way: I am not aware having ever heard or read the term "Siegfried line" - that's a term made up and used by the Western allies. The German word is "Westwall" - "Western Rampart".)
Reading the comments, apparently it took... two grown men to take them off a truck and place them. So you could probably get away with a 2WD lol.

I had heard the term Westwall as well. I guess we renamed it since it was towards the east to SHAEF's perspective? Also, we had various names for the German defensive lines in Italy which I assume were just something the Allies came up with for reference purposes.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:05 PM   #250
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,066
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

The Wagner dragon's teeth look like someone saw a picture of the Siegfried line, and thought they were just the above-ground part. And also couldn't afford to install them in the depth and density required.
Wagner's Dragon's dentures.
__________________
45 es un titere
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:10 PM   #251
crescent
Philosopher
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,718
I'm wondering if the little pyramids are more designed to work like Czech Hedgehogs - move with the vehicle a bit to high center it and get some wheels or tracks off the ground.

Removable with small vehicles - but they would be under fire the whole time, and the areas with the barriers could be preregistered with artillery and mortar and mined. In looking at the one set the cement things are paired with an anti-vehicle ditch and covered by zig-zag trench fighting positions on higher ground.

Armored dozers and tanks with dozer blades are a thing, but I have not seen either in Ukraine so far.

I hate to be the nag, but so far when Russia has managed to really dig in, they have proven very difficult to dislodge. They've only got a few miles of these things so far - but they are far to the rear of Russian lines. At Ukraine's current rate of progress Russia has months to keep building these before Ukraine gets that far. Russia may be building them in the places that would otherwise be easiest for Ukraine to cross. So it's "easy" to go around, but going around means going through terrain that is otherwise far more suitable for the defender.

I'm wondering if these are signs of Russia developing a much more long term defensive mindset, gearing up to refreeze the conflict.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:22 PM   #252
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
No but the thing is "The War" isn't the only thing going on. Russia's economy is not a bunch of kittens and Unicorns and Rainbows and no matter how many oligarchs Putin has thrown out of hospital windows he can't just ignore the fact that this was is very unpopular forever.

Nobody is expecting the Ukraine to beat Russia militarily in some traditional sense. At the end of the day Russia can throw Russia at the Ukraine until the Ukraine breaks and everybody knows that. Nobody is expecting Russia to loss in that sense.

But more wars are won by making the war just not worth fighting anymore than wars are won by winning the war.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:23 PM   #253
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The Siegfried dragon's teeth were reinforced concrete pyramids buried one to two meters in the ground, and projecting one to two meters above it. They were closely spaced, and usually in several rows with taller teeth in the back.

The Wagner dragon's teeth look like someone saw a picture of the Siegfried line, and thought they were just the above-ground part. And also couldn't afford to install them in the depth and density required.

Meanwhile, Ukraine is receiving shipments of combat engineering vehicles that should be able to make short work of these "fortifications".
Remember where this line is. Way behind the front lines.

It's not a defensive line but an offensive move in the battle that is more physically dangerous to the top of Wagner PMC - namely internal positioning for when Putin goes.


This is Wagner saying that they can defend Russia even when the standard military is defeated and has to retreat.

I'm sure it's modelled on the SS. Especially its form as an independent power base.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:25 PM   #254
Hercules56
Philosopher
 
Hercules56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 8,862
Russia Today presenter calls for genocide against Ukrainian children.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-720433

His so-called apology is lame.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:37 PM   #255
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Russia Today presenter calls for genocide against Ukrainian children.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-720433

His so-called apology is lame.
He has been fired for that.

Bizarrely he is openly gay and HIV+ so not the demographic I'd associate wi Kremlin propagandists
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 01:40 PM   #256
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No but the thing is "The War" isn't the only thing going on. Russia's economy is not a bunch of kittens and Unicorns and Rainbows and no matter how many oligarchs Putin has thrown out of hospital windows he can't just ignore the fact that this was is very unpopular forever.

Nobody is expecting the Ukraine to beat Russia militarily in some traditional sense. At the end of the day Russia can throw Russia at the Ukraine until the Ukraine breaks and everybody knows that. Nobody is expecting Russia to loss in that sense.

But more wars are won by making the war just not worth fighting anymore than wars are won by winning the war.
Ukraine is absolutely beating Russia militarily in the traditional sense.

And it's increasingly evident that Russia is already running low on "Russia to throw at Ukraine".

All of the ways that Ukraine is driving Russia back and liberating its people are traditional military ways to win wars. Better training. Better morale. Better equipment. Better intelligence. Better leadership. Better tactics. Better strategy. Better supply. Better logistics. Better allies.

And Russia is losing this thing in the time-honored traditional way to lose wars: By being worse at all the things Ukraine is better at, militarily.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 02:51 PM   #257
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 53,086
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Wagner's Dragon's dentures.
Sure, laugh now, but wait 'til they apply the Poligrip.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 04:05 PM   #258
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Kherson...another name from World War 2 makes the headlines...
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 04:28 PM   #259
junkshop
Graduate Poster
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Behind you
Posts: 1,991
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
WOW! Look at the magnificent scale of the Wagner tank traps in Ukraine, compared to the vaunted Siegfried line of Germany, which of course everyone knows worked and the allies have yet to enter German territory.

https://twitter.com/mr_gh0stly/statu...292482/photo/1
Roll a d4 for mild inconvenience.
__________________
Hobbyist receipt-keeper, fake cockney Dick Van Dyke cosplayer, and forum boss
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 04:45 PM   #260
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Probably hurt the Ukrainians more if they just carpet-bombed their positions with Lego. Or with any other truly effective weapon that is completely beyond Russia's means.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 04:56 PM   #261
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
That dirty bomb is nothing but a dark tale about Ukrainian depravity aimed at their home audiences and scare tactics (about Russia using a dirty bomb) towards western audiences.
Early on in the war Russia accused the Ukrainians of using chemical weapons, which they didn't. It's a propaganda lie designed to make people in Russia think that Ukraine is so horrible it'll use WMDs.

Meanwhile, Russia still hasn't taken the nuclear option off the table.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 07:57 PM   #262
gypsyjackson
Master Poster
 
gypsyjackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 2,065
Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Roll a d4 for mild inconvenience.
Ever trodden on one of those bastards?
gypsyjackson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th October 2022, 08:50 PM   #263
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
WOW! Look at the magnificent scale of the Wagner tank traps in Ukraine, compared to the vaunted Siegfried line of Germany, which of course everyone knows worked and the allies have yet to enter German territory.

https://twitter.com/mr_gh0stly/statu...292482/photo/1
That's a real Spinal Tap moment.
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 12:30 AM   #264
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 15,161
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
WOW! Look at the magnificent scale of the Wagner tank traps in Ukraine, compared to the vaunted Siegfried line of Germany, which of course everyone knows worked and the allies have yet to enter German territory.

https://twitter.com/mr_gh0stly/statu...292482/photo/1
Like most of their propaganda, that's for domestic consumption. "Look, our glorious military is doing stuff!"
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 12:40 AM   #265
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Like most of their propaganda, that's for domestic consumption. "Look, our glorious military is doing stuff!"
Exactly. And it's designed to make Prigozhin look good compared to Shoigu and the Russian MOD.

It's part of his play for the top job.



Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Remember where this line is. Way behind the front lines.

It's not a defensive line but an offensive move in the battle that is more physically dangerous to the top of Wagner PMC - namely internal positioning for when Putin goes.


This is Wagner saying that they can defend Russia even when the standard military is defeated and has to retreat.

I'm sure it's modelled on the SS. Especially its form as an independent power base.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 02:11 AM   #266
SpitfireIX
Philosopher
 
SpitfireIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Remember where this line is. Way behind the front lines.

It's not a defensive line but an offensive move in the battle that is more physically dangerous to the top of Wagner PMC - namely internal positioning for when Putin goes.


This is Wagner saying that they can defend Russia even when the standard military is defeated and has to retreat.

I'm sure it's modelled on the SS. Especially its form as an independent power base.

Emotional support fortifications.
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
--Carl Schurz
SpitfireIX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 02:17 AM   #267
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Emotional support fortifications.
I have seen them called "coplerones"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 03:42 AM   #268
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Interesting article by Bellingcat about the Russian team that programs the cruise missiles striking deep into Ukraine:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-a...es-on-ukraine/

Quote:
Following a six-month-long investigation, Bellingcat and its investigative partners The Insider and Der Spiegel were able to discover a hitherto secretive group of dozens of military engineers with an educational and professional background in missile programming. Phone metadata shows contacts between these individuals and their superiors spiked shortly before many of the high-precision Russian cruise missile strikes that have killed hundreds and deprived millions in Ukraine of access to electricity and heating. The group, which works from two locations – one at the Ministry of Defence headquarters in Moscow and another at the Admiralty headquarters in St. Petersburg – is buried deep within the Russian Armed Forces’ vast “Main Computation Centre of the General Staff”, often abbreviated as ГВЦ (GVC).
Much of the analysis relied on phone meta data obtained from Russian black cyber markets.

One take-away is that, as has been assumed here before, the October 10th salvo on Kyiv and other cities was not a spontaneous retaliation for the attack on the Kerch Street bridge on the 8th, but had been in preparation for about a week already.

They reached out to several members of this Russian team of specialists, to limited avail.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 04:06 AM   #269
IsThisTheLife
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
... the arsenal of democracy ...
Literally lol.
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 04:15 AM   #270
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,937
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ukraine is absolutely beating Russia militarily in the traditional sense.

And it's increasingly evident that Russia is already running low on "Russia to throw at Ukraine".

All of the ways that Ukraine is driving Russia back and liberating its people are traditional military ways to win wars. Better training. Better morale. Better equipment. Better intelligence. Better leadership. Better tactics. Better strategy. Better supply. Better logistics. Better allies.

And Russia is losing this thing in the time-honored traditional way to lose wars: By being worse at all the things Ukraine is better at, militarily.
Ukraine can't win this war militarily.

Even if they can beat the Russians back to the borders (unlikely), then what? Unless there is a political settlement, Russia can sit behind their border throwing missiles and Iranian drones at Ukraine.

This war doesn't end until Russia decides it can't bear the economic hardship anymore, or Ukraine is annihilated.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 05:13 AM   #271
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,066
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Ukraine can't win this war militarily.

Even if they can beat the Russians back to the borders (unlikely), then what? Unless there is a political settlement, Russia can sit behind their border throwing missiles and Iranian drones at Ukraine.

This war doesn't end until Russia decides it can't bear the economic hardship anymore, or Ukraine is annihilated.
Add to that Russians get tired of funerals for dead soldiers, which is a good chunk of why they gave up on Afghanistan. The loss rate here is much higher than Afghanistan.

Not loosing long enough does result a military victory. It just involves more than what happens on the battlefield.
__________________
45 es un titere
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 05:45 AM   #272
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Interesting article by Bellingcat about the Russian team that programs the cruise missiles striking deep into Ukraine:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-a...es-on-ukraine/



Much of the analysis relied on phone meta data obtained from Russian black cyber markets.

One take-away is that, as has been assumed here before, the October 10th salvo on Kyiv and other cities was not a spontaneous retaliation for the attack on the Kerch Street bridge on the 8th, but had been in preparation for about a week already.

They reached out to several members of this Russian team of specialists, to limited avail.
Interesting post (you probably meant the Kerch Strait bridge, not the Kerch Street bridge).

Does this mean that the October 8 attack on the Crimean Bridge was done by Russia, perhaps in order to have a pretext for massively striking Ukrainian power stations with cruise missiles and Iranian drones?

Does Bellingcat have anything on the September 26 attacks on the Nord Stream pipelines?
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 05:48 AM   #273
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Interesting post (you probably meant the Kerch Strait bridge, not the Kerch Street bridge).

Does this mean that the October 8 attack on the Crimean Bridge was done by Russia, perhaps in order to have a pretext for massively striking Ukrainian power stations with cruise missiles and Iranian drones?
I don't think that's the conclusion to draw from that report, rather that the cruise missile and other attacks on Ukraine were planned before the attack and there was little or no correlation between the two.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Does Bellingcat have anything on the September 26 attacks on the Nord Stream pipelines?
Why should it ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 06:24 AM   #274
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't think that's the conclusion to draw from that report, rather that the cruise missile and other attacks on Ukraine were planned before the attack and there was little or no correlation between the two.
I think you might be underestimating how Machiavellian Putin can be. He may have some experience in manipulating the masses (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...ings_in_Russia).
Quote:
Why should it ?
Bellingcat seems to be good at finding out what is really being done by the Russian "Security Services" (see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellin...lny_and_others).

Last edited by Michel H; 25th October 2022 at 07:42 AM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 06:28 AM   #275
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
WOW! Look at the magnificent scale of the Wagner tank traps in Ukraine, compared to the vaunted Siegfried line of Germany, which of course everyone knows worked and the allies have yet to enter German territory.

https://twitter.com/mr_gh0stly/statu...292482/photo/1
I have heard several reports of captured conscripts saying that they didn't even know which way they were supposed to defend.

I'm thinking these pre made trenches/ obstacles may be so they can shove conscripts in there and tell them to shoot THAT way.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 07:52 AM   #276
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I have heard several reports of captured conscripts saying that they didn't even know which way they were supposed to defend.

I'm thinking these pre made trenches/ obstacles may be so they can shove conscripts in there and tell them to shoot THAT way.
For that they need working weapons.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 08:12 AM   #277
Filippo Lippi
Illuminator
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,623
The arsenal of democracy? Barely the Notts County of etc etc
__________________
You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 09:11 AM   #278
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 16,340
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, I was a little surprised, too. The oblique and vague way it's presented at the links you found (I found the same ones) is what leads me to believe it's a "deep bureaucracy" kind of thing. A huge pile of interconnected systems with abstruse rules that are more focused on describing the process than actually doing what I'd consider "real work". Only when you get deep enough into it do you realize that describing the process is the real work. Or something.
A quick look and it reminds me of merging medical data from various incompatible systems. You need agreed standards and definitions, for ex not all 9mm ammo is the same. If one NATO country is short of artillery shells they might be in the kind of situation where returning them for a refund is not an option. Battle can be confusing and you want be sure exactly what is needed at point A can be found and sourced and moved to A and function as required. Boring boring detail.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 09:22 AM   #279
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
The arsenal of democracy? Barely the Notts County of etc etc
Russia getting its ass kicked by the Schitt's Creek of Democracy.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th October 2022, 11:53 AM   #280
SpitfireIX
Philosopher
 
SpitfireIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
A quick look and it reminds me of merging medical data from various incompatible systems. You need agreed standards and definitions, for ex not all 9mm ammo is the same. If one NATO country is short of artillery shells they might be in the kind of situation where returning them for a refund is not an option. Battle can be confusing and you want be sure exactly what is needed at point A can be found and sourced and moved to A and function as required. Boring boring detail.

Vladimir Rezun related a story in Inside the Soviet Army that illustrates the Soviets' approach to this problem. One day Stalin showed up for a demonstration of a new 300mm rocket launcher, but the test had to be canceled because 300mm artillery shells had been sent by mistake. Everyone expected Stalin to order those responsible shot, but instead he said, "Change the designation of the rockets to 302mm."
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
--Carl Schurz
SpitfireIX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:57 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.