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24th January 2023, 10:00 AM | #161 |
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24th January 2023, 10:08 AM | #162 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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24th January 2023, 10:11 AM | #163 |
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24th January 2023, 10:14 AM | #164 |
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What do you mean? Of course it kicks on the first shot, after the trigger is pulled. That wouldn't keep the kid from aiming at the teacher -- at close range -- and firing. After that, it doesn't matter if the gun fell out of his hand. She's hit. Is this a semantic question? How would the subsequent kick interfere with his first shot?
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24th January 2023, 10:15 AM | #165 |
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After, of course, and so instantaneously that an inexperienced shooter would likely hit nowhere near what they aimed at. Although the teacher was hit in the shoulder, so if it was close range, it may have kicked the barrel high and hit her there instead of the aimed target.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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24th January 2023, 10:19 AM | #166 |
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Fire a gun sometime. The kick is instantaneous with the shot, and will move the barrel before the bullet is out.
What makes you think firing a second shot would have kick, but the first wouldn't? That makes no sense at all. ETA: are you seriously arguing that the shot is fired, the bullet travels down the barrel to the intended target, and only then does the weapon kick, or move? I don't believe that you could seriously be arguing this. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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24th January 2023, 10:27 AM | #167 |
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We're talking past each other. Of course the gun kicks when it's fired. What's instantaneous is the bullet leaving the barrel when the cartridge ignites. The kick doesn't prevent the bullet from reaching its target. Even if the barrel moves slightly, it wouldn't keep the teacher from being shot at close range. This wasn't target practice at 15 yards. You think the bullet would have gone through the ceiling, or what?
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24th January 2023, 10:34 AM | #168 |
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The first report says a taurus not sure that is much help as they appear to make a range of pistols. Most seem to use something called Luger ammunition or 9mm S&W. The mother also claimed it had a trigger lock, although I find it unlikely that a 6yr old could defeat a trigger lock so this might not have been engaged, or the key left with it.
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24th January 2023, 10:39 AM | #169 |
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You are still seriously arguing that the kick from the first shot wouldn't affect the bullet's tragectory....with a first time shooting 6yo firing it??? I d have expected his fingers to be broken, and yes, at the very least for the barell to have jerked feet away from his intended target. I don't know if the kid was at point blank, or several rows away from the teacher. But I would not expect a toddler firing at a slim teacher to actually hit her the first time he drew and shot, no.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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24th January 2023, 10:41 AM | #170 |
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Some trigger locks use a combination. The kid could have figured out the numbers or found the key. The thing is that they are only supposed to be installed on an unloaded gun. The peg fits in front of the trigger. The trigger can still be pressed, accidentally or deliberately, with a trigger lock in place.
https://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-9...11&sr=8-5&th=1 |
24th January 2023, 10:51 AM | #171 |
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I've fired a wide range of handguns. The kick just isn't as great as you seem to think, and the bullet leaves the barrel at 1000 feet per second or more the instant the cartridge ignites. According to multiple accounts, the teacher was trying to take the gun away from the kid when she was shot. The distance would have been anywhere from zero to two feet at most. You really think the recoil would have changed the direction that much? How would it have broken his fingers?
This is all a distraction. The kid did in fact shoot his teacher. You think it couldn't have happened, or what? |
24th January 2023, 11:18 AM | #172 |
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I am not a six year old shooting for the first time with no experience or instruction. Neither, presumably, are you. Do you have experience with 6yo's firing stolen weapons for the first time while struggling, and how their 6yo widdle hands would handle the firing, or are you thinking about a man in a stable firing position?
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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24th January 2023, 03:14 PM | #173 |
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OK. I've fired a bunch of pistols, and can agree that there is significant 'kick' to pretty much all of them.
But, if it happened before the bullet left the barrel, I would have never hit a target. If you're talking about a fully automatic, sure, there's a lot of effort required to bringing the firearm back on target, which is why the 'pray and spray' types aim low and to the left, hoping to hit the target at some point while the firearm traverses up and to the right... But for a pistol, no. Aim. Bang. Hit target. Aim again. The rule of thumb, is: If you're close enough to hit your target with a thrown baseball, you're close enough to hit them with a fired bullet from a pistol. |
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24th January 2023, 03:31 PM | #174 |
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24th January 2023, 03:47 PM | #175 |
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A quick look online shows that most 'trigger locks' put a bar behind the trigger, but also have plates that prevent any access to the trigger.
But... Maybe it was a crappy trigger lock? Maybe it was just a padlock or similar? And also... If the firearm was a revolver, maybe it could be fired by manually pulling back the hammer? Depending on the mechanism of the trigger lock and the firearm, it may not be possible to 'cock' the firearm with the trigger lock in place, but possible to pull the hammer back against the spring far enough to fire the round. A child could even have copied 'fanning' from a Western, where gunslingers cock the hammer with their flat left hand while holding the firearm with their right hand. (Or the opposite allowing for handedness of the user) Without a lot more details, we're just in the realms of speculation, other than the facts, i.e. the child successfully fired the weapon and wounded the teacher. |
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24th January 2023, 03:48 PM | #176 |
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24th January 2023, 03:53 PM | #177 |
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No way. Not from a 9mm, I'm sure it hurt him though. And sure the barrel certainly jerked given that its impossible for the most experienced shooter in the world to control the barrel completely. But do know that a 9mm bullet is out the barrel in probably 2 or 3 ms. You could do the math at 1200fps (roughly) and a 6" barrel (roughly) and come up with a smaller exit time, but that doesn't account for the bullet accelerating. How many angles do you think the barrel could have changed direction in 3 milliseconds?
ETA theres probably a YT video of this experiment somewhere. Hang a pistol on a string and somehow cause it to discharge and it would still hit a target a few feet away. 5 years old. Thats when my dad had me shooting a .410. |
24th January 2023, 04:00 PM | #178 |
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Taurus makes both revolvers and semi-auto's so thats not much use. 9mm S&W is something that doesnt exist as a cartridge, though S&W does make 9mm's. 9x19mm is sometimes referred to as 9mm Luger. Without looking it up the German Luger P08 was probably the first, or first mass produced, pistol to use that cartridge.
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24th January 2023, 04:18 PM | #179 |
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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24th January 2023, 04:29 PM | #180 |
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Hey, why is the father off the hook here?
The more I read about this kid I know more about what's going on. The law which requires kids attend school has led to parents suing saying the school districts are required to manage their damaged offspring during the day. In the school districts I've worked with (they call me when a teacher or aide gets bitten by one of the kids) they typically have one-on-one aides assigned to each kid. Some of these kids have serious mental disabilities and behavioral disorders. And a small percentage of them are violent. |
24th January 2023, 05:00 PM | #181 |
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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24th January 2023, 05:29 PM | #182 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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24th January 2023, 05:56 PM | #183 |
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24th January 2023, 06:02 PM | #184 |
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I have seen that, yes.
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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24th January 2023, 06:47 PM | #185 |
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I've searched many search results and they all say that recoil does not affect accuracy. It may with repeated shots.
There are a lot of links but I don't know which single one is a reliable source. They all say the same thing. And from point-blank range it most likely wouldn't matter. |
24th January 2023, 09:51 PM | #186 |
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Not behind the trigger, in front of it. Trigger locks block the trigger. But the lock itself can be pulled or pushed against the trigger, causing the gun to fire. Manufacturers warn that trigger locks should not be mounted on a loaded gun, in part because just installing it could cause the gun to fire.
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https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ates-love.html
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The parents here were wildly irresponsible, and somebody almost died. |
25th January 2023, 02:47 AM | #187 |
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That's certainly my view, but there seems to be a concerted effort to shift blame away from the parents' slapdash gun security and instead make it the school's fault for failing to search the 6 year old properly.
I suppose focusing on the parents would raise uncomfortable questions about how poorly many (most ?) people in the US are about securing their weapons. Only a minority of my US relatives have handguns but those that do don't secure they properly IMO. Instead they are placed for easy access or, if they're suddenly concerned about gun security, in an unlocked drawer. In the same way that I, as a Brit, don't want to hear that my drinking is problematic, those in the US don't want to hear that their firearm security is poor - especially if they've "got away with it" for years. |
25th January 2023, 03:12 AM | #188 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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25th January 2023, 06:29 AM | #189 |
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25th January 2023, 08:43 AM | #190 |
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25th January 2023, 09:48 AM | #191 |
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25th January 2023, 09:55 AM | #192 |
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25th January 2023, 01:43 PM | #193 |
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25th January 2023, 01:57 PM | #194 |
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25th January 2023, 02:01 PM | #195 |
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25th January 2023, 02:18 PM | #196 |
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25th January 2023, 02:26 PM | #197 |
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They just keep the trigger pressed to the back so it can't be pulled when the trigger lock is on it. I'm not sure what "by pulling on the lock" really means.
They're fairly popular in my neck of the woods. It just prevents the gun from being fired but when you put the trigger lock on the trigger has to go back. If you have ammunition in there it would fire the gun. |
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25th January 2023, 02:32 PM | #198 |
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Trigger locks clamp against the trigger guard from either side preventing (mostly) movement unless unlocked and removed. The one I used when I last had a firearm years ago would have held on tight enough to where most people wouldn't have been able to move it back and have it pull the trigger, but someone exceptionally strong, or with enough time and something to get leverage could possibly do it. Realizing that this is an argument from incredulity, but given the force needed I don't see someone being able to effectively use a trigger-locked firearm offensively against someone else (take too long, hard to aim, etc.). Set it off eventually without caring where it's pointing when it goes off? Yeah, possible. Take it locked to school and be able to hit a chosen target? I don't see how. But again that was just my individual experience before I got rid of revolver. |
25th January 2023, 03:35 PM | #199 |
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*I'm not sure if you're asking with or without the trigger lock being on.
Regardless, since the gun has been reported to be a Taurus, it is almost certain that it would have a "transfer bar safety" where the hammer alone cannot fire the gun. Basically, the transfer bar rises up between the hammer and firing pin, the hammer hits the transfer bar, and the transfer bar hits the pin. The key is the transfer bar can't rise up without the trigger being pulled. A crappy trigger lock could allow this, I guess. Same situation as above. Agreed. My post is worthless if the gun was not a revolver. |
25th January 2023, 03:50 PM | #200 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't think that's the way they're supposed to work. They are installed with the post through the trigger guard, but without pressing against the trigger. If you locked the trigger back and stored the gun you would stress the springs that operate the trigger, in addition to firing it if you haven't unloaded it properly.
Here's a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6lcB2Oy4Vs Here's the instruction sheet for a Master Lock trigger lock.
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The experts recommend a cable lock that fits through the mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF7CsFl9Yyo |
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