Drag Shows!!

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I feel pretty. Oh, so pretty. And as a 6' 1" man weighing 260 lbs, that isn't weird, at all.

I don't see it.

I've said this a few times in this thread, if you don't accept the premise that drag is bad, then....there's no inherent problem.

Drag is bad, m'kay? So if you dress in drag, that's bad, m'kay? 'Cause drag us bad....

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

The stated purpose of the group is to bring acceptance of LGBTQ and “LGBTQ panic” doesn’t flow as well.

Tbf, the stated purpose of the group is to hire out a very specific type of performer to a very specific type of performance to a very specific young age group. Most of the very specific target audience would have no understanding or resistance to the very specific performers; hell, most of the very specific audience believes in the tooth fairy.

This performance is by adults, doing adult things, for the benefit of adults. Just in front of children.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Robin

Cross dressing is fun. Widow Twankey, the Principle Boy, Some Like it Hot, Jethrine Beaudine, going fancy dress as a cheerleader. How's it not fun? Why's that even controversial?

I don't think it is controversial. Dressing in drag is something most have us have done at one time or another, usually for an adultish laugh. In addition to a cheerleader Halloween costume, I also recall a Rocky Horror public dress up as a late teen. It can be fun. So is sex and drinking to excess. I just wouldn't mix them with the 5yr old children of strangers, either.

[WWBDD]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

I see nothing to suggest that the person on the sex offender registry is the same person on the flyer, other than it placing two images side-by-side. There are no aliases mentioned on the registry, for example. Are you suggesting those two are the same person and, if so, how do you know?

You know that thing you typed your post into, your computer? It's connected to a bunch of things in your home. Other computers, printers, maybe a switch, a router, right? That's called a network. Still with me? Great. Then, your network is connected to lots and lots of other networks. We call all those interconnected networks the internet. Interconnected networks, see? Now, over the internet you can access a vast collection of web pages connected via hyperlinks and URLs called the World Wide Web. That means you and everyone else here have access to everything I do.

"I refuse to look! If I don't see it, it didn't happen!" Pathetic.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

You know that thing you typed your post into, your computer? It's connected to a bunch of things in your home. Other computers, printers, maybe a switch, a router, right? That's called a network. Still with me? Great. Then, your network is connected to lots and lots of other networks. We call all those interconnected networks the internet. Interconnected networks, see? Now, over the internet you can access a vast collection of web pages connected via hyperlinks and URLs called the World Wide Web. That means you and everyone else here have access to everything I do.

"I refuse to look! If I don't see it, it didn't happen!" Pathetic.

Again, tbf, this is a discussion thread on a skeptics forum. It's not a prompt for every reader to go independently researching every claim made. When a non-opinion claim is made, it's probably just courteous to provide reasonable support. I mean, if we had to research every claim on every thread, we wouldn't have time left to discuss it.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Again, tbf, this is a discussion thread on a skeptics forum. It's not a prompt for every reader to go independently researching every claim made. When a non-opinion claim is made, it's probably just courteous to provide reasonable support. I mean, if we had to research every claim on every thread, we wouldn't have time left to discuss it.

Evidence?

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Evidence?

Sounds like a real drag.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

That means you and everyone else here have access to everything I do.

That doesn't mean you are relieved of the burden of supporting your own claims.

FWIW, I often try to checkout odd claims to try to get a handle on where they come from, but even when I do, there is no guarantee that what I find will match what the person was specifically referring to. That is why the burden of proof is always on the person making the claim.

[Upchurch]

Speaking of which

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

There have been a not-insignificant number of drag-storytime performers who have subsequently been arrested for either sex offenses against children or for possession of child pornography.

Not all of them, sure. But enough to be more than a one-off "oopsie!".

Source?

Did we ever get source of numbers behind this statistical breakdown for significance or are we just marking this one down as confirmation bias?

[plague311]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

You know that thing you typed your post into, your computer? It's connected to a bunch of things in your home. Other computers, printers, maybe a switch, a router, right? That's called a network. Still with me? Great. Then, your network is connected to lots and lots of other networks. We call all those interconnected networks the internet. Interconnected networks, see? Now, over the internet you can access a vast collection of web pages connected via hyperlinks and URLs called the World Wide Web. That means you and everyone else here have access to everything I do.

"I refuse to look! If I don't see it, it didn't happen!" Pathetic.

Perhaps during your extremely ****** explanation of networks you could have listed the fact that a ton of information on the internet is complete and total nonsense. So yes, we have access to read the same stuff you do, we just probably don't visit the same panicky, hateful, ignorant websites that hold the information you visit. That's how the internet works. It's so vast that not everyone goes to the same places. So when you link a ******* random picture with no context to it in a pathetic attempt to force the entire drag community to take responsibility for the mistakes (that have already been corrected) by one library in Texas, it's kind of polite to tell us where you got the mother ******* information from so that it can be verified.

Pathetic indeed.

[WWBDD]

Originally Posted by Darat

If by "neighborhood" you mean the USA - the box office success of several movies, including movies targeted as "family movies" are clear evidence that you are wrong.

No, it isn't. There is no time-honored tradition of drag performers entertaining generations of children in the USA. I doubt there is in the UK, or anywhere else.
The confusion in this thread is clear evidence that you and several other posters don't know what drag is.

Pantomime isn't drag. Pantomime does not exist in the US. You should keep that in mind. You're uninformed and biased.

Actors aren't doing drag, they're in costume.

None of the movies you're talking about feature characters in drag. They're all disguised as women. That's not drag. What's the central gag of The Birdcage? The drag queen has to tone it way, WAY down to be convincing as a woman.

The Rocky Horror Picture Show features an accurate portrayal of drag. It's the only movie I know of that does. Tim Curry isn't a transvestite, though. He's an actor.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

The Rocky Horror Picture Show features an accurate portrayal of drag. It's the only movie I know of that does. Tim Curry isn't a transvestite, though. He's an actor.

To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love, Julie Newmar? Swayze, Snipes, and John can't pronounce his last name showing some real acting chops.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

No, it isn't. There is no time-honored tradition of drag performers entertaining generations of children in the USA. I doubt there is in the UK, or anywhere else.
The confusion in this thread is clear evidence that you and several other posters don't know what drag is.

Sadly I've been watching mostly bad drag acts in pubs and nightclubs since about 1984, I am sure I will soon work out what it is eh?

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Pantomime isn't drag. Pantomime does not exist in the US. You should keep that in mind. You're uninformed and biased.

Since no one has made that claim how is anyone being uninformed? As for biased - I have already admitted that I am, I came of age at a time when drag was under a lot of scrutiny from a feminist angle, so I do have to admit I start with a bias against drag. But despite that I can still tell that you are making silly statements and arguments against drag.

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Actors aren't doing drag, they're in costume.

A meaningless distinction, do you really think drag performers spend all their time as their drag character?

Originally Posted by WWBDD

None of the movies you're talking about feature characters in drag. They're all disguised as women. That's not drag. What's the central gag of The Birdcage? The drag queen has to tone it way, WAY down to be convincing as a woman.

You are not making your case compelling.

Originally Posted by WWBDD

The Rocky Horror Picture Show features an accurate portrayal of drag. It's the only movie I know of that does. Tim Curry isn't a transvestite, though. He's an actor.

And most folk who do drag are not transvestites - so no idea what relevance this has to the topic of this thread?

[plague311]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

No, it isn't. There is no time-honored tradition of drag performers entertaining generations of children in the USA. I doubt there is in the UK, or anywhere else.
The confusion in this thread is clear evidence that you and several other posters don't know what drag is.

Pantomime isn't drag. Pantomime does not exist in the US. You should keep that in mind. You're uninformed and biased.

Actors aren't doing drag, they're in costume.

None of the movies you're talking about feature characters in drag. They're all disguised as women. That's not drag. What's the central gag of The Birdcage? The drag queen has to tone it way, WAY down to be convincing as a woman.

The Rocky Horror Picture Show features an accurate portrayal of drag. It's the only movie I know of that does. Tim Curry isn't a transvestite, though. He's an actor.

I'll take "**** that isn't true for $200" Here's a source that says you're wrong. In fact, it says they do pantomime plays every year at least! They even star the wonderful NPH!!!!

So what were you saying about being uninformed and bias?

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by plague311

I'll take "**** that isn't true for $200" Here's a source that says you're wrong. In fact, it says they do pantomime plays every year at least! They even star the wonderful NPH!!!!

So what were you saying about being uninformed and bias?

FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_pantomime

Obviously, not super popular in the US, but it exists. Also feels like a non-sequitur and off-topic.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_pantomime

Obviously, not super popular in the US, but it exists. Also feels like a non-sequitur and off-topic.

I just found it ironic that the guy yelling at everyone else to do research and giving a terrible, terrible explanation of the internet, and how it works, would take the time out to do some basic, beginner level research.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

We've covered this and like I said in my original post, and I quote it again for affect.

Reel yer ******* necks in.

So why did you bother to post the irrelevant, dubious, drivel in the first place?

[TomB]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Speaking of which


Did we ever get source of numbers behind this statistical breakdown for significance or are we just marking this one down as confirmation bias?

To be fair, as I recall Emily’s Cat doesn’t post on the weekends. I’d be careful reading anything into her silence during these periods.

That said, you can find a number of sex offenders and child abusers in any profession/subgroup. Evidence would not be finding a few, but rather a statistically significant higher proportion.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Pantomime isn't drag.

Nobody said it was. But pantomime is very close to drag,, it's part of the same tradition.

Quote:

Actors aren't doing drag, they're in costume.

Actors commonly refer to wearing costumes identified with the opposite sex as being in drag. Pantomime dames are in drag.
Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie was in drag. Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis in Some Like it Hot were in drag.

No one actually knows if the theatre parlance came first or drag shows.

Quote:

The Rocky Horror Picture Show features an accurate portrayal of drag. It's the only movie I know of that does.

Just no. Curry's performance is informed in part by the drag tradition, but it couldn't remotely be called an accurate portrayal of drag.

[Pacal]

The Rocky Horror Picture Show is an accurate portrayal of "Drag"???!!! What the @#*!

If you watch the movie you will clearly see that Frank does not make any attempt to pass has a Woman at all. He is obviously from begining to end a Man. but a Man who wears Female garb because it excites him in some fashion. He is a Transvestite not a "Drag Queen". Further he has tattoos, which at the time were considered quite masculine and he wears a tough Motor Cycle Jacket at times. This puts him into the ranks of what in the 70s was called "Gender@!^$", which was the deliberate combination of very Feminine and very Masculine dress.

And may I pointout Frank describes himself quite explicitly has a Transvestite not a "Drag Queen" or a Female Impersonator.

I would also like to know just how Drag performers are not in costume and not performing like actors.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by TomB

That said, you can find a number of sex offenders and child abusers in any profession/subgroup. Evidence would not be finding a few, but rather a statistically significant higher proportion.

Yes, that is the claim I would like a source for. The number that is "not insignificant".

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Pacal

I would also like to know just how Drag performers are not in costume and not performing like actors.

Most drag queens are pretty proud of their costume design skills.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Pacal

The Rocky Horror Picture Show is an accurate portrayal of "Drag"???!!! What the @#*!

Right? Off the top of my head there is To Wong Foo, Priscilla Queen of the Desert, Kinky Boots (which is a movie, although the musical is more popular)

Rocky might be in the top 10, but only because there just isn't a ton of drag queen movies and you'd have to really stretch to get the list to 10.

[WWBDD]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Giving one example out of thousands of drag performers across the world.

I don't know what WWBDD's profession is, but if I scoured the internet I bet I could find someone of that profession who was also a sex offender.

I'm a stagehand. Limit it to the US, and I'll take that bet. I'm Head Carpenter, Head Rigger and Head Flyman for Patriots Theater at the War Memorial. It's owned and operated by the state of New Jersey. I had to pass a background check before my first interview. Because we work with kids. Most theaters in the US are non-profit organizations receiving state and/or city funding for educational programs. Background checks. Many theaters are educational facilities located on university campuses. Background checks. Plus, we're professionals. Responsible for all kinds of very expensive and potentially dangerous equipment. Hard work and long hours. I doubt I know any irresponsible, untrustworthy people who can't pass background checks.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by catsmate

So why did you bother to post the irrelevant, dubious, drivel in the first place?

There are two words in your barbed reply that you clearly do not understand the meaning of. I can, safely, as always, where your arguments are concerned, dispense with your antagonistic *****.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

.....
I doubt I know any irresponsible, untrustworthy people who can't pass background checks.

I'm on your side. But I think you mean you don't know any unsavory people who can pass background checks.

Double negatives are tricky.

[Robin]

Irresponsible, untrustworthy people are often very skilled at passing background checks.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Depends on what you consider harm, I suppose.

that said...

Performer "Flow Job" places pictures of kids from a school visit (in drag) on their sexualized instagram page, without parental consent. And yes, they used the name "Flow Job" when they visited the school.

"Family friendly" drag show has children stuffing cash into a drag performer's bra.

Drag event aimed at kids has huge sign saying "It's not gonna lick itself" where drag performers wearing very skimpy outfits interact with kids, and collect cash from children for their performances in a strip-club-esque fashion.

Milwaukee County Children’s Court judge, who was CEO of "Cream City Foundation", and while CEO got that foundation awarded a grant to do DQST, got arrested for seven counts of possession of child pornography, including some involving toddlers.

Drag Queen who works for an LGBTQ+ youth center arrested with 25 counts of possession of child pornography

Drag Queen at brunch advertised as "all ages drag brunch" lifts dress and gyrates while singing explicit lyrics in front of children.

Originally Posted by Robin

Irresponsible, untrustworthy people are often very skilled at passing background checks.

Indeed. The two highlighted examples would have passed background checks at the time they were performing in drag. They would have failed later, of course, but at the time they were doing drag they had not been arrested yet and had clean records.

Background checks don't catch those who just have not yet been caught. It's kind of a red herring.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

There are two words in your barbed reply that you clearly do not understand the meaning of. I can, safely, as always, where your arguments are concerned, dispense with your antagonistic *****.

And the Irony Award goes to...........

Bluesjnr!

[Darat]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

I'm a stagehand. Limit it to the US, and I'll take that bet. I'm Head Carpenter, Head Rigger and Head Flyman for Patriots Theater at the War Memorial. It's owned and operated by the state of New Jersey. I had to pass a background check before my first interview. Because we work with kids. Most theaters in the US are non-profit organizations receiving state and/or city funding for educational programs. Background checks. Many theaters are educational facilities located on university campuses. Background checks. Plus, we're professionals. Responsible for all kinds of very expensive and potentially dangerous equipment. Hard work and long hours. I doubt I know any irresponsible, untrustworthy people who can't pass background checks.

Literally "child pornography stagehand"

https://www.nola.com/news/article_d2...7d08a40db.html

Quote:

...In the years after his release, Burkhardt found work as a truck driver, stagehand and data compiler. But his obsession with child pornography apparently remained unabated, even after he promised a federal judge he was a changed man....

That criminal had even served time in prison and was still able to become a stagehand...

Oh dear - looks like we can't let any stagehands near children.

[Parsman]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

We've covered this and like I said in my original post, and I quote it again for affect.

Reel yer ******* necks in.

Given the vote in the Scottish Parliament on Thursday I can only assume you are a very unhappy bunny right now.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Dear me, are we creeping towards coining a new fallacy, "No true drag queen"?

It's a pity that we may be because, since and only since you asked, this very high profile drag queens alledged behaviour makes pretty grim reading.

Please note the submission this link is as a response to your request and is not indicative of any stance on Drag Queen Story Hour the poster may have, so reel yer ******* necks in.

‘Drag Race’ Star Sharon Needles Terrorized a 15-Year-Old Superfan. And They Weren’t Alone.

There was no fallacy in the post you were responding to, but there is in the arguments you're putting forth. Not least of these is the insistence that you're not making an argument. Yes you are, even if you insist you're 'just answering questions'.

As we already covered, the goalpost set is the correct one for the question of if children are inherently in danger at drag queen story hours. You want a broader goalpost, which you don't even meet with your citation.

I can cite literally hundreds of cases of teachers sexually abusing students. Does this mean children are inherently in danger being around teachers? No, and in fact teachers have a lower rate of sexually abusing children than the general public. This principle has already been covered, and you ignore it while lashing out at all the other posters who don't go with your little fiction.

It's clear that the 'danger' so many of you are concerned about isn't what you claim it is. Until you find the intellectual honesty to openly advance an argument, you won't find valid agreement even if you can hide behind not being specifically proven wrong.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

I'm a stagehand. Limit it to the US, and I'll take that bet. [SNIP]

LMFAO! A stagehand? Stagehands are a very trustworthy group with sexual ethics?

For those who don't understand, WWBDD is a local stagehand. Stagehands also include road stagehands, or roadies. Now as someone who has worked in comedy, I'll say that roadies don't deserve all of the bad rap they have (as opposed to comedians who absolutely do), but it most certainly isn't baseless. More than that, local stagehands run an extremely wide gamut of trustworthiness in all aspects. Some are very rough and inclined towards criminality. They cycling through employers and settling with the less reputable of the entertainment industry. You all know, the famously sexually ethical entertainment industry? Others are top notch, working with easily stolen equipment and IP with huge monetary value with not even a thought to personally taking any of it. To claim they are especially ethical for sexually related things is absurd though. There is zero reason they'd be better or worse than the general population.

I'm not going to throw shade at WWBDD's crew or theater. In fact I'm betting what he's saying about them is true. It is because it is true that he likely doesn't even realize how that experience isn't the absolute norm.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by Parsman

Given the vote in the Scottish Parliament on Thursday I can only assume you are a very unhappy bunny right now.

When have I ever commented negatively on gender issues? Where do you get the impression that I'm unhappy about the vote?

Take that back.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

There was no fallacy in the post you were responding to

I didn't insist there was - reel yer neck in.

Quote:

but there is in the arguments you're putting forth. Not least of these is the insistence that you're not making an argument. Yes you are, even if you insist you're 'just answering questions'.

Ok, cool.

Quote:

As we already covered, the goalpost set is the correct one for the question of if children are inherently in danger at drag queen story hours. You want a broader goalpost, which you don't even meet with your citation.

Fair enough

Quote:

I can cite literally hundreds of cases of teachers sexually abusing students. Does this mean children are inherently in danger being around teachers?

Not an argument I'm putting forward. Why are you asking me?

Quote:

No,

I agree

Quote:

...and in fact teachers have a lower rate of sexually abusing children than the general public.

I could not care less, I'm not in the least bit interested in teachers molesting children.

Quote:

This principle has already been covered, and you ignore it while lashing out at all the other posters who don't go with your little fiction.

What fiction was this?

Quote:

It's clear that the 'danger' so many of you are concerned about isn't what you claim it is.

What level of "danger" have I claimed? Show me please.

Quote:

Until you find the intellectual honesty to openly advance an argument, you won't find valid agreement even if you can hide behind not being specifically proven wrong.

There we are then...

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

There are two words in your barbed reply that you clearly do not understand the meaning of. I can, safely, as always, where your arguments are concerned, dispense with your antagonistic *****.

So, no actual response then.....

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

And the Irony Award goes to...........

Bluesjnr!

So people don't like having uncomfortable reality pointed out to them.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by catsmate

So people don't like having uncomfortable reality pointed out to them.

Which is? Tell me why it might might make me uncomfortable.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

If you are "allowed" to find such men wierd then why on earth isn't Warp12 allowed his own library of wierd?

He certainly is entitled, and it's even within the rules here. But it is also within both our entitlement and our adherence to criticize the opinion, fortunately.

[Robin]

I'm still interested to find out how questioning someone about their opinion could possibly be interpreted as policing their thoughts or saying they are not allowed to have that opinion.