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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 15th September 2021, 11:51 AM   #1841
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
OK, when you write this in response to a post support of Milley's actions:



The implication is that they are supportive of a coup.


Secondly, it's not clear that anything illegal happened. According to some reports, he was given permission and later briefed civilian leadership in the Pentagon regarding the call. Even if not, it's not clear to me that it's illegal for a general to reassure a foreign power not to worry about a surprise attack that isn't coming. Had he warned them of an attack that was imminent, these accusations of treasons and coups would make a bit more sense to me.
There's a lot of sense in the distinction you draw. There's a difference between promising to warn and actually warning.

Of course, it's still possible that he wasn't authorized to make such a promise.

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Old 15th September 2021, 11:52 AM   #1842
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
There's a lot of sense in the distinction you draw. There's a difference between promising to warn and actually warning.

Of course, it's still possible that he wasn't authorized to make such a promise.

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It's possible, but again there are reports that his calls were approved and relayed to civilian leadership in the Pentagon. They didn't appear to have a problem with the calls at the time either.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:56 AM   #1843
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except he didn't. There were a number of high profile cases where the administration got shut down by the courts. Notably, Trump never went against the courts after any such ruling.

LOL! He called the Lt. Gov. of Georgia and tried to get him to just "find" the exact number of votes to give him the state! He pressured the DOJ to declare they found "problems" with the election voting and Barr finally resigned over Trump's meddling. He got away with that and two impeachments for illegal things that he clearly did and GOP knew he did but didn't care! Don't give me this crap that "he didn't".

Quote:
Contrast that with Biden, who admitted his eviction moratorium was unconstitutional but declared he was going to proceed with attempting it anyways.
Um, no. He admitted no such thing. What he said was:

Quote:
“any call for a moratorium based on the Supreme Court’s recent decision is likely to face obstacles.” Still, he said, “by the time it gets litigated, it will probably give some additional time”
And three SC justices dissented from the majority ruling.

Here's some 'whataboutisms' for you (I'm pre-empting that completely expected rebuttal, so don't bother):

Trump's XO's declared illegal:

Quote:
A Washington Post review shows over 60 adverse rulings against the administration. All administrations lose cases, but experts cannot recall so many losses in such a short time.

Environmental: 19
Immigration: 14
Health Care: 12
Sanctuary Cities: 7
Transgender Military Ban: 5
DACA: 4
Census Citizenship Question: 3
Miscellaneous: 6
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:58 AM   #1844
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nobody knows how you judge anything, and at this point nobody cares.

The constitution is a legal document, and it has considerable say on how we judge the legality of the actions of anyone in government, including Milley.
What does the Constitution say about Milley's action?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:10 PM   #1845
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
OK, when you write this in response to a post support of Milley's actions:



The implication is that they are supportive of a coup.
it Implies they are both flexible in the importance of government agents adhering to the rule of law.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:00 PM   #1846
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
It's possible, but again there are reports that his calls were approved and relayed to civilian leadership in the Pentagon. They didn't appear to have a problem with the calls at the time either.
Were they? Who authorized them? Miller says he didn't and wouldn't.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...-should-resign
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:06 PM   #1847
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We're getting some real stars quoted here. Christopher Miller was Defense Secretary for what - 3 months? In that time, he ordered our forces out of Afghanistan, failed to meet with Biden's team, thereby risking national security during transition, delayed activating the National Guard for hours while white supremacists and MAGA hordes attacked the US Capitol. Such an important voice about the Constitutionality of whatever Milley did. **** that guy.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:10 PM   #1848
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What does the Constitution say about Milley's action?
The constitution makes the President the commander in chief, and gives Congress the power to pass laws governing the structure of the armed forces. Congress has passed laws which dictate the role of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Those laws prohibit the Chairman from exercising command authority. The Chairman's only role is as advisor to the president, he is NOT part of the chain of command. If Milley gave orders to anyone, that is illegal, and the constitution backs that up.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:11 PM   #1849
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Were they? Who authorized them? Miller says he didn't and wouldn't.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...-should-resign
From your link:
Quote:
The book claims Milley contacted Li after he had reviewed intelligence that suggested Chinese officials believed the United States was planning an attack on China amid military exercises in the South China Sea. The authors of the book also claim Milley contacted Li a second time to reassure him that the U.S. would not make any type of advances or attack China in any form, as Milley promised, "We are 100% steady. Everything’s fine. But democracy can be sloppy sometimes."

But Fox News spoke with multiple individuals who were in the room during the two phone calls Milley had with Li. The calls, in October, were coordinated with then-Defense Secretary Mark Esper’s office.

"They were not secret," a U.S. official told Fox News about the calls, which took place over video teleconference.

Fox News has learned there were about 15 people present for the calls. Sources told Fox News that there were multiple notetakers present, and said the calls were both conducted with full knowledge of then-Defense Secretary Mark Esper and then-acting Defense Secretary Chris Miller – something Miller denied.
So we have 15 people who were present and sources who say both Esper and Miller knew about them beforehand. And that's from FOX.

Miller was appointed by Trump because he's a sycophantic loyalist. Of course he's now going to deny it.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:24 PM   #1850
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The constitution makes the President the commander in chief, and gives Congress the power to pass laws governing the structure of the armed forces. Congress has passed laws which dictate the role of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Those laws prohibit the Chairman from exercising command authority. The Chairman's only role is as advisor to the president, he is NOT part of the chain of command. If Milley gave orders to anyone, that is illegal, and the constitution backs that up.
1. It's the Constitution, not constitution.

2. Milley was not exercising command authority. He was reminding the others what the proper and legal procedure was when it came to the POTUS ordering military strikes and that was for him to be informed as Chairman. Unless China attacked the US or was planning to, there would be no warranted reason for such an order to be issued and would clearly be illegal. Trump already had a history of not following procedure and of being erratic and abusing his powers as POTUS.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:37 PM   #1851
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You know what?

If some general decides that actually, it's a bad idea for a dangerously unstable person in a position of power to instigate WWIII in a fit of pique after he's already lost the election and should be preparing an orderly handover of power, then that's fine by me.

Obviously it would be better to have systems in place to prevent such an occurrence, maybe a 25th Amendment, perhaps? But allowing the destruction of civilisation just to make the point that the system lacks sufficient safeguards seems a little extreme to me.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:53 PM   #1852
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
You know what?

If some general decides that actually, it's a bad idea for a dangerously unstable person in a position of power to instigate WWIII in a fit of pique after he's already lost the election and should be preparing an orderly handover of power, then that's fine by me.

Obviously it would be better to have systems in place to prevent such an occurrence, maybe a 25th Amendment, perhaps? But allowing the destruction of civilisation just to make the point that the system lacks sufficient safeguards seems a little extreme to me.
how does someone in that position know the safeguards are inadequate rather than adequate and producing a result they don't like?
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Old 15th September 2021, 02:28 PM   #1853
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
how does someone in that position know the safeguards are inadequate rather than adequate and producing a result they don't like?
<regrets typing this beforehand>

I'm pretty sure "The Founding Fathers" would not have intended any outgoing president to be able take a course of action that would not only destroy the country as a polity, but also every other country on the globe - simply because the outgoing president was dangerously unstable.

Nuclear war on a whim is a Bad Thing.
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:16 PM   #1854
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
how does someone in that position know the safeguards are inadequate rather than adequate and producing a result they don't like?
Why, they hurry over to your place and humbly implore, "Please, Mr. Robert Subhero, pretty please tell us if these here safety guards is in- or adequate and do they like our results? WE don't know! YOU gots ta TELL us!"
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:54 PM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The constitution makes the President the commander in chief, and gives Congress the power to pass laws governing the structure of the armed forces. Congress has passed laws which dictate the role of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Those laws prohibit the Chairman from exercising command authority. The Chairman's only role is as advisor to the president, he is NOT part of the chain of command. If Milley gave orders to anyone, that is illegal, and the constitution backs that up.
So having a lunatic as president start World War 3 is just jim dandy with you?
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:56 PM   #1856
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
You know what?

If some general decides that actually, it's a bad idea for a dangerously unstable person in a position of power to instigate WWIII in a fit of pique after he's already lost the election and should be preparing an orderly handover of power, then that's fine by me.

Obviously it would be better to have systems in place to prevent such an occurrence, maybe a 25th Amendment, perhaps? But allowing the destruction of civilisation just to make the point that the system lacks sufficient safeguards seems a little extreme to me.
Milley might has just prevented Trump from going full Greg Stillson in "Dead Zone" on us.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:20 PM   #1857
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Milley might has just prevented Trump from going full Greg Stillson in "Dead Zone" on us.
Trump has already gone full Captain Queeg on us.

"Ahh, but the ballots! That's - that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with - geometric logic - that the numbers don't match! And I'd have PRODUCED those numbers if they hadn't pulled the rigged machines! I, I, I know now they were only trying to keep me from winning -

[breaks off in horror, becomes hesitant]

Umm... naturally, I can only cover these things roughly, from - what Sydney and Mr My Pillow have told me... but if I've left anything out... why, you just ask me - specific questions and I'll be - perfectly happy to lie about them... one by one. Can I have two scoops of ice cream now?"
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:56 PM   #1858
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
it Implies they are both flexible in the importance of government agents adhering to the rule of law.
Well here I thought you were to explicit to imply anything. Either way, at least we don’t need to pretend it was a coup anymore. It doesn’t even appear anything illegal happened. And by most reports, even the Fox News link helpfully provided by Ziggurat demonstrating that civilian leadership was informed and present for the call, it doesn’t even appear to have been improper.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:58 PM   #1859
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Well here I thought you were to explicit to imply anything. Either way, at least we don’t need to pretend it was a coup anymore. It doesn’t even appear anything illegal happened. And by most reports, even the Fox News link helpfully provided by Ziggurat demonstrating that civilian leadership was informed and present for the call, it doesn’t even appear to have been improper.
Apparently Zig doesn't read his own links past the headlines...but I did.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:06 PM   #1860
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Were they? Who authorized them? Miller says he didn't and wouldn't.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...-should-resign
So he went around Trump and Miller. Who cares? He deescalated a situation with a nuclear power. All that matters is no nukes were launched, process be damned. Milley had everyone reason to believe the pretend SECDEF was engaged in seditious conspiracy. We're talking about nukes. As long as we kept any from being used, it's okay. The ends justify the means.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:28 PM   #1861
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So he went around Trump and Miller. Who cares? He deescalated a situation with a nuclear power. All that matters is no nukes were launched, process be damned. Milley had everyone reason to believe the pretend SECDEF was engaged in seditious conspiracy. We're talking about nukes. As long as we kept any from being used, it's okay. The ends justify the means.
But he didn't go around Miller at all. Miller is lying. Miller was informed as well as DefSec Esper. There were representatives from the State Dept etc.

Nor was Milley telling Gen. Li that he would let him know ahead of time if a military strike was going to happen. The right is taking what he said out of context...gee...shocking, I know. What they are leaving out is the next sentence:

"It's going to be OK. We're not going to have a fight."

Gen.Li says "OK. I take you at your word."

Milley tells Li that if there were going to be a war, there would be a build up just like every war in history. Li would know that, too.

But, man, the GOP usuals are out in force calling for Milley's resignation and calling it treason. It's not. But why let that get in the way of a good ranting point?
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:12 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Why, they hurry over to your place and humbly implore, "Please, Mr. Robert Subhero, pretty please tell us if these here safety guards is in- or adequate and do they like our results? WE don't know! YOU gots ta TELL us!"
I have the humility to admit I have no way of answering such a question.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:44 AM   #1863
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But he didn't go around Miller at all. Miller is lying. Miller was informed as well as DefSec Esper. There were representatives from the State Dept etc.

Nor was Milley telling Gen. Li that he would let him know ahead of time if a military strike was going to happen. The right is taking what he said out of context...gee...shocking, I know. What they are leaving out is the next sentence:

"It's going to be OK. We're not going to have a fight."

Gen.Li says "OK. I take you at your word."

Milley tells Li that if there were going to be a war, there would be a build up just like every war in history. Li would know that, too.

But, man, the GOP usuals are out in force calling for Milley's resignation and calling it treason. It's not. But why let that get in the way of a good ranting point?
I doubt Miller didn't know. However, I wouldn't care if Milley had made an end run around Miller.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:47 AM   #1864
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
how does someone in that position know the safeguards are inadequate rather than adequate and producing a result they don't like?
Why take the chance when the result they don't like is the employment of nuclear weapons?
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Old 16th September 2021, 01:03 AM   #1865
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Wow.
Indeed. Some people just can't accept the unpleasant reality that was the Trump administration.
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Old 16th September 2021, 01:43 AM   #1866
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Indeed. Some people just can't accept the unpleasant reality that was the Trump administration.
I was just over on Mark Dice's site with all the Magahatters going on about how dumb Biden supporters are. My god...the misinformation and idiocy was flowing like you wouldn't believe. It was downright scary.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:08 AM   #1867
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why take the chance when the result they don't like is the employment of nuclear weapons?
The reason to take that chance is you agreed to take that chance by joining an organization that transfers this decision making authority to civilian control. By signing up, you agree to follow all legal, bad orders.


eta: This is like a North Korean general having issue with The unilateral power given to Kim. it's the system you signed up for

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Old 16th September 2021, 06:06 AM   #1868
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The reason to take that chance is you agreed to take that chance by joining an organization that transfers this decision making authority to civilian control. By signing up, you agree to follow all legal, bad orders.
"I was only following orders" hasn't been an acceptable defense in quite a while.
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Old 16th September 2021, 06:15 AM   #1869
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"I was only following orders" hasn't been an acceptable defense in quite a while.
It is an extremely acceptable defense and always has been.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:46 AM   #1870
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have the humility to admit I have no way of answering such a question.
I have the abject resignation to tear open my shirt and concede that I will endeavor in the years to come to find a question that you CAN answer.
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Old 16th September 2021, 03:03 PM   #1871
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The reason to take that chance is you agreed to take that chance by joining an organization that transfers this decision making authority to civilian control. By signing up, you agree to follow all legal, bad orders.


eta: This is like a North Korean general having issue with The unilateral power given to Kim. it's the system you signed up for
I don't care about any of that. If the end result is that nukes aren't employed it's okay. If you have to circumvent civilian control to avoid a nuclear exchange, that's fine. If he had to lie to the president that's okay. If he had to be insubordinate to Trump, that's fine. It only matters that nukes aren't exchanged.
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Old 16th September 2021, 03:04 PM   #1872
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is an extremely acceptable defense and always has been.
If you have a depraved indifference to human life and our civilization.
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Old 16th September 2021, 03:53 PM   #1873
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is an extremely acceptable defense and always has been.
Nope.

Superior orders
Quote:
Article 33, titled "Superior orders and prescription of law", states:
The fact that a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been committed by a person pursuant to an order of a Government or of a superior, whether military or civilian, shall not relieve that person of criminal responsibility unless:

a. The person was under a legal obligation to obey orders of the Government or the superior in question;
b. The person did not know that the order was unlawful; and
c. The order was not manifestly unlawful.

For the purposes of this article, orders to commit genocide or crimes against humanity are manifestly unlawful.
An "order" may come from one's superior at the level of national law. But according to Nuremberg Principle IV, such an order is sometimes "unlawful" according to international law. Such an "unlawful order" presents a legal dilemma from which there is no legal escape:
It's not an 'extremely' acceptable defense to claim you were just following orders. If Trump ordered Milley to nuke California, 'just following orders' would be an extremely risky defense strategy.

Quote:
The reason to take that chance is you agreed to take that chance by joining an organization that transfers this decision making authority to civilian control. By signing up, you agree to follow all legal, bad orders.
Not true. Only the court can decide whether a particular is 'legal', but according to the 1998 Rome Statute you don't have a legal obligation to obey a manifestly unlawful order such as shooting innocent civilians - or even nuking them.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:58 PM   #1874
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Nope.

Superior orders

It's not an 'extremely' acceptable defense to claim you were just following orders. If Trump ordered Milley to nuke California, 'just following orders' would be an extremely risky defense strategy.

Not true. Only the court can decide whether a particular is 'legal', but according to the 1998 Rome Statute you don't have a legal obligation to obey a manifestly unlawful order such as shooting innocent civilians - or even nuking them.
Through a combination of things such as the Senate not ratifying agreements, the US removing itself as signatories, and US legislation after a treaty instantly nullifying it, the US legal system has a limit of what international law is part of US law.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:16 PM   #1875
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Through a combination of things such as the Senate not ratifying agreements, the US removing itself as signatories, and US legislation after a treaty instantly nullifying it, the US legal system has a limit of what international law is part of US law.
I suspect such things never entered Milley's mind. I suspect he had a singular goal of not getting into a nuclear exchange.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:34 PM   #1876
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I suspect such things never entered Milley's mind. I suspect he had a singular goal of not getting into a nuclear exchange.
If the general didn't want to implement the philosophy of Juche, then he shouldn't have committed his life to the Korean People's Army.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:37 PM   #1877
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If the general didn't want to implement the philosophy of Juche, then he shouldn't have committed his life to the Korean People's Army.
Principles don't enter into this.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:38 PM   #1878
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Principles don't enter into this.
Good, because he is a bad person.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:39 PM   #1879
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Good, because he is a bad person.
As if that matters.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:51 PM   #1880
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
As if that matters.
...which is why I said it was good for you. It is fortunate that it is your position.
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