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Tags Gretchen Whitmer , Michigan incidents , militia incidents

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Old 11th October 2020, 11:49 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
The Boogaloo movement also doesn't appear to have much of a coherent ideology. Some are white supremacists , some seek to assassinate white supremacists. If these clowns ever were to get into power, they would create a tyranny far worse than the tyranny they imagine they are fighting against.
This is what I'm talking about. The Boogs don't want political power any more than an anarchist does. They are a means of upheaval, rather than a means to a specific end. Flipping the board over rather than installing anything in particular.
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Old 11th October 2020, 11:54 AM   #282
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One thing all these white supremacist/anti-government militias/boogaloo bois/ neo-Nazi/anti-Semitic/anti-Islamic/etc. groups have in common is fear. They all have a sense of being threatened by 'something'. This is something that I see in a lot of Trump supporters. They also fear 'something' and Trump feeds that. It can be immigrants, people of color, socialism, the government taking away their guns or their 'rights', whatever...but they are fearful.
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Old 12th October 2020, 11:03 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
And anti police non Trump supporters, strange indeed.
Considering I actually know him and his family, he's right wing.
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Old 12th October 2020, 12:50 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Considering I actually know him and his family, he's right wing.
You must be mistaken. Right wing media has informed me they are anarchist lefty terrorists...
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Old 12th October 2020, 02:29 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You must be mistaken. Right wing media has informed me they are anarchist lefty terrorists...
Disbelief is part of the Deep State sent here to spread lies about Great American Patriots.
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:20 AM   #286
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Trump Today on theFox interview asked about Gretchen Whitmer.

"She wants to be a dictator in Michigan. And the people can't stand her."
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:35 AM   #287
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In any normal and decent country any head of state doing this after a governor was the target of a terror plot would get universal condemnation.
Instead it's just another Wednesday with President Crazypants.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:00 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Today on theFox interview asked about Gretchen Whitmer.

"She wants to be a dictator in Michigan. And the people can't stand her."
Hmm think the defense will be able to use the presidents words as an endorsement and hence sanction of their militia? After all from the Kyle Rittenhouse thread we learned that once it is a real militia the second amendment covers them against all such laws. Hence the arrest would be a violation of their second amendment rights.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:04 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm think the defense will be able to use the presidents words as an endorsement and hence sanction of their militia? After all from the Kyle Rittenhouse thread we learned that once it is a real militia the second amendment covers them against all such laws. Hence the arrest would be a violation of their second amendment rights.
These people will find that the fascist right has no problem disposing of inconvenient members of their own group when it suits them. Proud Boys regularly disavow their violent actors that get locked up or otherwise bring bad publicity. Kyle Rittenhouse will either rot in jail or walk free solely on the strength of his legal defense, and none of the CHUDs will lose a night of sleep if a 17 year old pisses the rest of his life away in jail because he drank the fashy Flavor-aid.

Likewise to these militia guys. They are only acting on the natural conclusion of the claims made by the extreme right, but they will be discarded like a piece of gum that has lost it's flavor. The right has no solidarity, individuals are disposable.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:04 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Today on theFox interview asked about Gretchen Whitmer.

"She wants to be a dictator in Michigan. And the people can't stand her."
This, and this alone, says it all about Trump, today's GOP, and those defending it, in the context of actual Constitutional law and SCOTUS precedent (Jacobson v Massachusetts).

In the 21st century, as in the 20th, once again we face those who, in the final analysis, wish for the savagery of a hunt-and-gather, zero-sum game absent civilization (i.e., "rules spoiled boys have to follow").

The GOP icon should be that of a cannibal wiping his bloody chin on his unsleeved arm.
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Old 20th July 2021, 11:40 AM   #291
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...?ocid=msedgntp

Quote:
A special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation involved in the operation that resulted in a group of men being charged for allegedly plotting to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer was criminally charged on Monday in connection to a domestic incident.
Yikes

Then this claim:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...them-up-report

Quote:
There were at least 12 FBI informants involved in the investigation into the group for months while they were allegedly planning to kidnap the governor.

The FBIs involvement was much bigger than previously known, as the agency was involved when the plot began and had informants allegedly encouraging the group to further its plans, BuzzFeed News reported.
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Old 20th July 2021, 11:42 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
Fed getting indicted for violent crime is a bit unusual, though the detail that it was domestic violence is pretty unsurprising. Cops do love hitting their intimate partners.

Feds encouraging a bunch of chest-thumping whackdoos to break the law is not surprising at all. It's a well worn tactic that has been criticized in the past, though often targeting different types.

Lots of journalism has been done about the tactic of the feds finding emotionally or mentally disturbed people, befriending them under false identities, talking them into terror schemes, and then arresting them. There's a real question in many of these cases if the person targeted ever would have planned or executed any such plan without the extensive prodding by the feds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-terror-plots

If you're part of any vaguely radical group and your new buddy is trying to sell you a bomb or seems super eager to do some direct action, 100% chance it's a fed.
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Old 20th July 2021, 11:49 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Fed getting indicted for violent crime is a bit unusual, though the detail that it was domestic violence is pretty unsurprising. Cops do love hitting their intimate partners.

Feds encouraging a bunch of chest-thumping whackdoos to break the law is not surprising at all. It's a well worn tactic that has been criticized in the past, though often targeting different types.

Lots of journalism has been done about the tactic of the feds finding emotionally or mentally disturbed people, befriending them under false identities, talking them into terror schemes, and then arresting them. There's a real question in many of these cases if the person targeted ever would have planned or executed any such plan without the extensive prodding by the feds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-terror-plots

If you're part of any vaguely radical group and you're new buddy is trying to sell you a bomb or seems super eager to do any direct action, 100% chance it's a fed.
Heh, before the edit that was where the sentence trailed off and I was so about to take you to task :9.

I recall some alleged plot to blow up a bridge where the Fed even started issuing threats of reprisal against them and their families for trying to back out.

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Old 20th July 2021, 12:18 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
I'm sure you didn't mean it, but this is a bit misleading. It sounds like the "domestic incident" was being involved in the kidnap planning.

The agent is charged with violence against his intimate partner, a completely separate crime.

Along with a dozen FBI informants, this informant is now charged with a separate crime and that might compromise him as a witness against the terrorist group for which he has already testified.


I can't believe there were 12 FBI informants on this case. I hope they were spread out among the 3 percenters group and not all involved in this questionable entrapment. Though I am fine with the FBI acting in a way to expose these dangerous nut jobs, mind you.

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Old 20th July 2021, 12:21 PM   #295
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So let's weaken federal law enforcment, which is our only shield at the moment agains the right wing extremist. Sounds good to me.
IMHO if these tactics take these nuts off the street, fine with me.
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Old 20th July 2021, 12:30 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Feds encouraging a bunch of chest-thumping whackdoos to break the law is not surprising at all. It's a well worn tactic that has been criticized in the past, though often targeting different types.

Lots of journalism has been done about the tactic of the feds finding emotionally or mentally disturbed people, befriending them under false identities, talking them into terror schemes, and then arresting them. There's a real question in many of these cases if the person targeted ever would have planned or executed any such plan without the extensive prodding by the feds.
It is sad that the stories about these never spread as much as the initial arrests. Most people will never be aware of the extent of FBI involvement in a lot of these stings. I would like to think that there are more actual deterring events that are not in the news because they never were allowed to reach the level of 'fake bomb, phone in the signal, haha gotcha!' but stuff like this seems to be attempts to justify their size/existence.

Makes me weary of this turn to domestic groups, and what that will entail for them continuing to expand their disrespect for our rights. While we should be scraping those ill conceived expansions that came up after 9/11, it seems like they will be going in the opposite direction at this rate.
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Old 20th July 2021, 12:38 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So let's weaken federal law enforcment, which is our only shield at the moment agains the right wing extremist. Sounds good to me.
IMHO if these tactics take these nuts off the street, fine with me.
First they came for the nuts on the street, and I said, Mmm, nuts.
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Old 20th July 2021, 12:44 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So let's weaken federal law enforcment, which is our only shield at the moment agains the right wing extremist. Sounds good to me.
IMHO if these tactics take these nuts off the street, fine with me.
"These tactics" were used against groups wanting income equality and racial justice just as enthusiastically.

The problem with "the ends justify the means" is that every few years, their target list changes based on who is in power and who those powerful people deem to he the "extremists."

If our "only shield" against white nationalists is half-baked entrapment schemes, we have serious problems. Not being allowed to strong-arm and coerce naive idiots into otherwise non-existant terror plots is not "weakening" law enforcement.

I know moderates can be really thick in the head sometimes, but wow.

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Old 20th July 2021, 12:48 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"These tactics" were used against groups wanting income equality and racial justice just as enthusiastically.

The problem with "the ends justify the means" is that every few years, their target list changes based on who is in power and who those powerful people deem to he the "extremists."
To be fair to the feds (yuck), I'm not seeing anything about our militia CHUDs that suggests anywhere near the shady tactics that has been used to entrap people in the past.

Not shocked at all that the terrorism club was jam packed full of federal informants. It doesn't seem like the feds were really tricking anyone, they all knew what they were signing up for was straight up domestic terrorism. That's a lot more than other people snared by the feds can say.

Sounds like the feds threw money and a bit of organizing talent into the group to help them cross from doing internet tough-guy stuff to actually engaging in actionable crimes. Not seeing anything to indicate that these guys needed much ideological coaching or arm twisting.
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Old 20th July 2021, 12:57 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be fair to the feds (yuck), I'm not seeing anything about our militia CHUDs that suggests anywhere near the shady tactics that has been used to entrap people in the past.



Not shocked at all that the terrorism club was jam packed full of federal informants. It doesn't seem like the feds were really tricking anyone, they all knew what they were signing up for was straight up domestic terrorism. That's a lot more than other people snared by the feds can say.



Sounds like the feds threw money and a bit of organizing talent into the group to help them cross from doing internet tough-guy stuff to actually engaging in actionable crimes. Not seeing anything to indicate that these guys needed much ideological coaching or arm twisting.
I found the rhetoric and behaviors of quite a few groups I have "ideological similarities" to quite reprehensible and extreme, don't get me wrong.

It is about consistency on the validity of such tactics and the idea that it is OK because today it was used to target people i disagree with.

That's a dangerous thing to take comfort in, let alone enthusiastically support.
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Old 20th July 2021, 01:01 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I found the rhetoric and behaviors of quite a few groups I have "ideological similarities" to quite reprehensible and extreme, don't get me wrong.

It is about consistency on the validity of such tactics and the idea that it is OK because today it was used to target people i disagree with.

That's a dangerous thing to take comfort in, let alone enthusiastically support.
The devil is in the details. These tactics are similar in kind, but I suspect vary quite a bit in how extreme they are.

Some of the examples I cited are quite extreme, in some cases the defendants argue they they weren't even aware they would being asked to do something illegal. On the other hand, plotting a kidnapping doesn't really leave much plausible deniability.

It's hard to imagine that for most of these militia CHUDs they have similar complaints. The feds almost certainly egged them on and facilitated their criminal plans, but it doesn't seem like they needed much encouragement to do it.
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Old 20th July 2021, 01:14 PM   #302
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Criminals say the Cops made us do it?

What a surprise.
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Old 20th July 2021, 02:34 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Criminals say the Cops made us do it?

What a surprise.
The ones saying it today are awful people.

But the FBI does have a loooooong track record of this.
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Old 20th July 2021, 02:59 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The ones saying it today are awful people.

But the FBI does have a loooooong track record of this.
It depends on what point does a sting operation go into enticement for crime?
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Old 20th July 2021, 03:07 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not shocked at all that the terrorism club was jam packed full of federal informants. It doesn't seem like the feds were really tricking anyone, they all knew what they were signing up for was straight up domestic terrorism. That's a lot more than other people snared by the feds can say.
Twelve informants? I think most of them thought they were signing up to be government narcs.

Quote:
Sounds like the feds threw money and a bit of organizing talent into the group to help them cross from doing internet tough-guy stuff to actually engaging in actionable crimes.
That sounds like an amazingly stupid way to waste resources. I feel like if the FBI were sane and competent, they would have said, "Internet tough-guy stuff? Pretty harmless, but let's keep an eye on it in case they decide to escalate. Maybe... one informant."
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Old 20th July 2021, 03:25 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Twelve informants? I think most of them thought they were signing up to be government narcs.


That sounds like an amazingly stupid way to waste resources. I feel like if the FBI were sane and competent, they would have said, "Internet tough-guy stuff? Pretty harmless, but let's keep an eye on it in case they decide to escalate. Maybe... one informant."
Hey, show me a sane and competent FBI and we can talk.
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Old 20th July 2021, 04:12 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It depends on what point does a sting operation go into enticement for crime?
https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com...-was-entrapped

The basic principle is this: If the police find someone who wants to commit a crime, and gives them an opportunity to do so, that's fine. It's the classic sting operation. Find a seller, pretend to be a buyer, then bust the seller when he tries to make the sale.

On the other hand if the police find someone who doesn't want to commit a crime, or has misgivings about committing a crime, and the police make an effort to convince them to go ahead and do it, that's entrapment.

Obviously there's a lot of gray area in between those two clear-cut scenarios. Personally I don't think the FBI should be in the business of funding and organizing Internet tough guys, just to see if that's enough to entice them into converting talk to action so that arrests can be made.
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Old 20th July 2021, 04:14 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hey, show me a sane and competent FBI and we can talk.
Show me a sane and competent FBI, and then we can talk about whether this group was actually a threat, or even existed in anything like the form the FBI claims.
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Old 20th July 2021, 04:21 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So let's weaken federal law enforcment, which is our only shield at the moment agains the right wing extremist. Sounds good to me.
IMHO if these tactics take these nuts off the street, fine with me.
Did you get that from my post????

You should reread it if you think I said anything of the kind.

I do think undercover cops have a fine line between causing the crooks to act and simply pushing what they would have done on their own but I am not crying foul when any of these bastards get caught.
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Old 20th July 2021, 04:28 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did you get that from my post????

You should reread it if you think I said anything of the kind.

I do think undercover cops have a fine line between causing the crooks to act and simply pushing what they would have done on their own but I am not crying foul when any of these bastards get caught.
The whole point of entrapment is that calling them bastards is begging the question. If they were entrapped, then they weren't bastards, and didn't need to be caught.

Also, we should always cry foul when government agents cut corners on the rule of law, or ignore it altogether, in order to catch some "bastard". Entrapment is no more excusable than planting evidence or suborning perjury.
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Old 20th July 2021, 05:19 PM   #311
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First they came for the bastards, and I said, “Mmm, extramarital sex.”
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Old 20th July 2021, 05:29 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm sure you didn't mean it, but this is a bit misleading. It sounds like the "domestic incident" was being involved in the kidnap planning.
I sure didn't mean to imply that. It's pretty clear from the links there is no association. The problem is that it goes to credibility and may give the defense an avenue to attack FBI testimony. That's my concern.
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:38 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The whole point of entrapment is that calling them bastards is begging the question. If they were entrapped, then they weren't bastards, and didn't need to be caught.

Also, we should always cry foul when government agents cut corners on the rule of law, or ignore it altogether, in order to catch some "bastard". Entrapment is no more excusable than planting evidence or suborning perjury.
Nothing I'm seeing reported even comes close to entrapment. The tactics used by the feds here are unsavory, but not even close to the illegal skullduggery that the feds have used in the past.

Unless there's some other detail that shows these people were deceived and not knowingly taking part in a plot to kidnap and murder a governor, they are well and truly boned. Maybe some people on the periphery will wiggle out, but it's gonna take much more scandalous skullduggery from the feds than this for the core members to walk.
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Old 21st July 2021, 06:23 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
https://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com...-was-entrapped

The basic principle is this: If the police find someone who wants to commit a crime, and gives them an opportunity to do so, that's fine. It's the classic sting operation. Find a seller, pretend to be a buyer, then bust the seller when he tries to make the sale.

On the other hand if the police find someone who doesn't want to commit a crime, or has misgivings about committing a crime, and the police make an effort to convince them to go ahead and do it, that's entrapment.

Obviously there's a lot of gray area in between those two clear-cut scenarios. Personally I don't think the FBI should be in the business of funding and organizing Internet tough guys, just to see if that's enough to entice them into converting talk to action so that arrests can be made.
So the question is, are the people who are showing up at organization meetings and following it up by coming to training sessions those who don't want to commit a crime?

"Let's kidnap the governor!"
"Gee, I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it, I'm in."
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Old 21st July 2021, 03:46 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
So the question is, are the people who are showing up at organization meetings and following it up by coming to training sessions those who don't want to commit a crime?

"Let's kidnap the governor!"
"Gee, I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it, I'm in."
For those interested, Covid-19 has temporarily changed access to federal courtrooms and they are allowing call-in by the public. Normally, federal courts do not allow recordings or video but have relaxed this in the pandemic in order not to have lots of courtroom attendees from the public. They can't just have closed hearings because the Constitution requires courts to hold public trials so allowing dial-in attendance lets them satisfy the constitutional requirements w/o letting gobs of people into the courtroom.

So, if you are interested in how the sausage is made, don't miss the very temporary opportunity.
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Old 21st July 2021, 06:40 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unless there's some other detail that shows these people were deceived and not knowingly taking part in a plot to kidnap and murder a governor, they are well and truly boned.
Encouraging someone to do something they know is illegal is still entrapment, and still not allowed.
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Old 21st July 2021, 06:42 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
So the question is, are the people who are showing up at organization meetings and following it up by coming to training sessions those who don't want to commit a crime?

"Let's kidnap the governor!"
"Gee, I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it, I'm in."
Encouraging someone to commit a crime is still entrapment.
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Old 21st July 2021, 06:58 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Personally I don't think the FBI should be in the business of funding and organizing Internet tough guys, just to see if that's enough to entice them into converting talk to action so that arrests can be made.
While I'm in agreement that if there is no way that they could get the funding elsewhere then leave them alone and watch them just in case, however, if they are discussing committing a crime to fund their greater attack, for instance selling drugs, or robbing a bank or an armoured car, then I'd say that the FBI should jump in at that point and providing the funding so as to prevent a further crime which could result in other people being harmed.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 04:03 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Encouraging someone to do something they know is illegal is still entrapment, and still not allowed.
Undercovers "encourage" crimes all the time, and it remains a perfectly legal law enforcement tool. In practice, the standards of making an entrapment defense are extremely high for defendants.

Unless you meant your statement in the non-legal sense.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 11:35 PM   #320
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I think people may have the wrong impression of what's going on here.

The 12 "informants" don't appear to be undercover agents, or outsiders that the FBI placed into the organization in order to create and promote this plot. They could just as easily be legitimate members of the organization who turned when their leadership started talking about kidnappings. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the FBI actually funded any part of the plot, either.

The fact that one informant eventually become "second in command" of the group and continued to carry out plans, duties, and trainings expected of someone in that position, including going along with and showing enthusiasm for the idea, was probably something he was instructed to do by the FBI so as not to arouse suspicion but probably does not mean the FBI is thus responsible for the genesis and development of the plot and it doesn't mean the other plotters were entrapped.
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