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Tags Gretchen Whitmer , Michigan incidents , militia incidents

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Old 23rd July 2021, 12:33 AM   #321
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think people may have the wrong impression of what's going on here.

The 12 "informants" don't appear to be undercover agents, or outsiders that the FBI placed into the organization in order to create and promote this plot. They could just as easily be legitimate members of the organization who turned when their leadership started talking about kidnappings. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the FBI actually funded any part of the plot, either.

The fact that one informant eventually become "second in command" of the group and continued to carry out plans, duties, and trainings expected of someone in that position, including going along with and showing enthusiasm for the idea, was probably something he was instructed to do by the FBI so as not to arouse suspicion but probably does not mean the FBI is thus responsible for the genesis and development of the plot and it doesn't mean the other plotters were entrapped.
Quite bringing rational explanations to a "Let's trash the FBI" conversation!
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Old 24th July 2021, 04:33 PM   #322
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Yeah I'm with Checkmite.

I'm usually quite knee jerk about entrapment but the more I read about the actors (no pun) involved I'm less confident that it happened in the most insidious way possible. Taking the mundane explanation for now than the appeals to dubious precedent.
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Old 26th July 2021, 04:25 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think people may have the wrong impression of what's going on here.

The 12 "informants" don't appear to be undercover agents, or outsiders that the FBI placed into the organization in order to create and promote this plot. They could just as easily be legitimate members of the organization who turned when their leadership started talking about kidnappings. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the FBI actually funded any part of the plot, either.

The fact that one informant eventually become "second in command" of the group and continued to carry out plans, duties, and trainings expected of someone in that position, including going along with and showing enthusiasm for the idea, was probably something he was instructed to do by the FBI so as not to arouse suspicion but probably does not mean the FBI is thus responsible for the genesis and development of the plot and it doesn't mean the other plotters were entrapped.
From the reporting it sounds like the informant second in command eventually became the de-facto head of the group as the original leader stepped away.

It would not be unusual for the feds to originate a terrorism plot. Proposing specific criminal acts to groups of people who had previously only been engaging in vague, threatening statements and macho chest-thumping is a well worn tactic used by federal law enforcement.

Details are thin, and I think we're very far away from anything approaching a true entrapment defense, but I would not be surprised if most, if not all, of the plot to assassinate the Governor was not conceived primarily by this federal informant. There's really nothing to indicate that these people couldn't walk away from this plot at any time, even if it wasn't their idea to begin with. The fact that their leader was an informant leads me to believe there will be no shortage of first-hand testimony and other hard to counter evidence of their participation in an extremely illegal plot.

There's probably a good conversation to be had about whether the feds should be encouraging those with radical inclinations, yet no concrete plans for action, to commit to a violent plots as a means law enforcement. I see no reason to be persuaded by the coming crocodile tears of the extreme right as if more details emerge showing that these freaks were lead by the feds to the slaughter, considering none of these people have had any outrage for the decades of much more extreme versions of this tactic being used to torment the American Muslim community.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:47 PM   #324
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The thought that aspiring terrorists will now be looking around suspiciously at their fellow yobs and wondering, "Muh, is Herkimer playin' straight wiv us? That new guy, he shaves his th'oat beard oftener'n I like. Feds? Dunno. Uh."

just tickles me in all the best places.
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Old 26th August 2021, 04:45 AM   #325
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Cooperating witness in militia plot gets 6 years prison time.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/man...or-2021-08-25/

The man had no prior criminal history and cooperated with the government in a guilty plea, testifying against his comrades.

Assuming the "entrapment" moonshot defense doesn't work, other participants in the plot seem to be looking at some very hard time.
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Old 26th August 2021, 05:56 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cooperating witness in militia plot gets 6 years prison time.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/man...or-2021-08-25/

The man had no prior criminal history and cooperated with the government in a guilty plea, testifying against his comrades.

Assuming the "entrapment" moonshot defense doesn't work, other participants in the plot seem to be looking at some very hard time.
Good. About time these whacko, right wing militia groups start doing some hard time when they break the law.
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Old 13th September 2021, 08:36 PM   #327
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So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
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Old 13th September 2021, 10:56 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
They did the right thing and got rid of this loser. But the article does not give any evidence that he was involved in anything illegal concerning the kidnapping plot. Those allegations are coming from the defense strategy. I don't know if anything illegal, such as entrapment, actually occurred or not.
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Old 14th September 2021, 04:15 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
Extremely on brand for a major case to be put in jeopardy because cops just can't stop beating up their wives.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:39 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They did the right thing and got rid of this loser. But the article does not give any evidence that he was involved in anything illegal concerning the kidnapping plot. Those allegations are coming from the defense strategy. I don't know if anything illegal, such as entrapment, actually occurred or not.
I find it interesting that a certain poster seems to bend over backwards to try to excuse or justify right wing terrorists.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:49 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I find it interesting that a certain poster seems to bend over backwards to try to excuse or justify right wing terrorists.
Sure they FBI agent beat his wife but that doesn't change the audio or video from the informant. You can have an FBI agent who beat his wife and a group of traitors trying to overthrow the government. They're not mutually exclusive.Happily, with sentencing reform, our prisons have room for both.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:58 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The thought that aspiring terrorists will now be looking around suspiciously at their fellow yobs and wondering, "Muh, is Herkimer playin' straight wiv us? That new guy, he shaves his th'oat beard oftener'n I like. Feds? Dunno. Uh."

just tickles me in all the best places.


That's a common warning on Conservative websites, although not for the reasons you imagine. On any pro-Constitution forum, a good rule of thumb is that any poster trying to talk people into violence is either an FBI agent or an idiotic dumbass. In either case, the best move is to completely ignore them or, if they're talking about specific acts of violence, report them.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:44 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
That's a common warning on Conservative websites, although not for the reasons you imagine. On any pro-Constitution forum, a good rule of thumb is that any poster trying to talk people into violence is either an FBI agent or an idiotic dumbass. In either case, the best move is to completely ignore them or, if they're talking about specific acts of violence, report them.
So which is it? Republican or pro-Constitution sites?
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:14 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So which is it? Republican or pro-Constitution sites?

Who said anything about Republicans?


But seriously, the vast majority of Republicans are pro-Constitution. There are a minority of people trying to take over the Republican Party that are decidedly not pro-Constitution. It's basically what occurred to the Democratic Party during the 1960's, when the Democratic Party of JFK, Henry Jackson, and Hubert Humphrey was destroyed and replaced with the Party of Bill Ayers, Jeff Jones, and Mark Rudd.

Unfortunately, there are people that would be happy to be the armed contingent of the Republican Party just as OBLM and Antifa are the armed action contingent of the Democratic Party.

We (meaning Conservatives) have to be more successful than the Democratic Party in demonstrating and making absolutely clear that an armed contingent is not needed, wanted or acceptable to the Republican Party. Honestly, at this point, I have my doubts that's going to happen, which is why I'm not a Republican anymore. Just the notion that a political party in the US should have a goon squad to enforce it's will and to ensure that people vote the "right" way is incredibly offensive to me. And the whole "Well, the Democrats are doing it, if we don't respond we might as well give up and declare the Socialist States of America!" is disheartening. Two wrongs don't make a right and following the Democrats down that path just makes things much worse.

To say I'm not hopeful for the future of the USA is a severe understatement.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:44 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
But seriously, the vast majority of Republicans are pro-Constitution.
I mean, sorta in the same way that Christians are pro-Bible. Sure, they love their idea of it, but when you dig into the details, it gets a bit murky.

Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Unfortunately, there are people that would be happy to be the armed contingent of the Republican Party just as OBLM and Antifa are the armed action contingent of the Democratic Party.
Object Based Learning Model?

Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?


Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
We (meaning Conservatives) have to be more successful than the Democratic Party in demonstrating and making absolutely clear that an armed contingent is not needed, wanted or acceptable to the Republican Party.
This feels like a No True Conservative argument to me. I lurk in several conservative social media holes and there is still plenty of talk of 2nd Amendment remedies.

Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
And the whole "Well, the Democrats are doing it, [snip]
Doing what exactly?
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:52 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
It sounds like they have one fewer.
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Old Yesterday, 12:45 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I mean, sorta in the same way that Christians are pro-Bible. Sure, they love their idea of it, but when you dig into the details, it gets a bit murky.


Object Based Learning Model?

Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?



This feels like a No True Conservative argument to me. I lurk in several conservative social media holes and there is still plenty of talk of 2nd Amendment remedies.


Doing what exactly?
Good reply, Upchurch. You pretty well said what I was going to. But, I'll repeat the "Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?"

Csmike seems to think that Antifa and the Dems are connected. They're not. I'm a Democrat and I want nothing to do with Antifa. I find most of them to be anarchists just out to make trouble, especially here in Portland. They and the Proud Boys are behind most of the problems here.
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Old Yesterday, 01:06 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
Poor recruiting base. The military-prison guard-law enforcement-private security career path is engrained in proto-fascist American Warrior culture. White boys (and wannabes) with an enormous ego chip, and no moral shoulder to host it on, oh my! You get what you brew.
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Old Yesterday, 03:56 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Good reply, Upchurch. You pretty well said what I was going to. But, I'll repeat the "Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?"

Csmike seems to think that Antifa and the Dems are connected. They're not. I'm a Democrat and I want nothing to do with Antifa. I find most of them to be anarchists just out to make trouble, especially here in Portland. They and the Proud Boys are behind most of the problems here.
Haven't you heard? Antifa is the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party! While The Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc are just fringe right wingers and not to be associated with Republican. Doesn't matter if Republicans actually hire them for security at events, that's just coincidence.
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