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Tags Coronavirus

View Poll Results: Who do you blame?
Trump. He should have at least done a PSA encouraging people to get vaccinated. 42 37.84%
Right wing media for almost embracing an anti-vax sentiment 67 60.36%
Republican Governors particularly Desantis and Abbott 50 45.05%
Internet know it alls that don't actually. 30 27.03%
The Republican party for trying to be as crazy as Trump. 52 46.85%
Joe Biden for not being persuasive enough 3 2.70%
The Democrats because shouldn't we blame them? 3 2.70%
The public for being just too stupid. 59 53.15%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 111. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17th August 2021, 02:36 PM   #121
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I got vaccinated against a whole lots of things my first day in the US army.....
They gave you a list of what you were being vaccinated against but you were too busy to give it any attention before and afterwards did not care....
I know if you're going to do much travelling to third world countries they recommend you get a barrage of shots. My buddy did a bunch of traveling a few years ago to Africa and Asia and he said he got about 6 shots for various things.
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Old 17th August 2021, 02:54 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know if you're going to do much travelling to third world countries they recommend you get a barrage of shots. My buddy did a bunch of traveling a few years ago to Africa and Asia and he said he got about 6 shots for various things.
Pretty much probably the same battery of shots I got in the US Army.
Except there was no recommend about it.you had no choice, and the Sergeant in charge of your training platoon would make that point clear...
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Old 17th August 2021, 02:55 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That article was from March, 2015: pre-Covid, pre-Trump. There has never been a vaccine that was politicized the way these vaccines have been. There has never been an epidemic in the US whose severity was downplayed and even denied by the POTUS, a political party, or a partisan media that spread misinformation the way this one has. In 2015, those stats were true; in 2020-2021 they no longer apply, perhaps with the exception of the "think their vote doesn't matter" stat.

This, and the fact that the naysayers have to go all the way back to 2015 to find their so-called "evidence" pretty much rips the rug out from under their case.

ETA: For Thermal's benefit, and the removal of doubt, the AGE GROUP statistics in that 2015 article for anti-vaxxers in general still apply, POLITICAL GROUP statistics no longer do, particularly in regard to the pandemic and Covid-19 vaccines. They have now been distorted by the fact that since the beginning of the pandemic in early 2020, the Right have continually...

1. Played down the seriousness of the pandemic.
2. Politicised mask wearing.
3. Politicised social distancing.
4. Discouraged vaccination.
5. Publicly attacked doctors and virus experts. (yes, Rand Paul, you!)
6. Ignored and attacked the science
7. Ignored the advice of doctors and virus experts as to courses of action

These are observable, verifiable and indisputable facts. They are why the Right have a lower vaccination rate... not because they are less wealthy or have a lower educational standards. Sure, those could be minor factors, but the overwhelming driver is the disinformation they are being force-fed by the lying media they consume and the the lying politicians they voted for.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 17th August 2021 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 02:59 PM   #124
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Let's keep those thoughts and prayers coming, folks! They seem to be worki......oops. Never mind.

Quote:
Denver Newsroom, Aug 17, 2021 / 12:06 pm

The condition of Raymond Cardinal Burke, who was recently hospitalized with Covid-19, has reportedly deteriorated.

A source who has spoken to someone close to the cardinal told CNA his condition has deteriorated, and the next 48 hours are crucial.

Cardinal Burke’s Twitter account had announced Aug. 14 that he “has been admitted to the hospital with COVID-19 and is being assisted by a ventilator. Doctors are encouraged by his progress. His Eminence faithfully prayed the Rosary for those suffering from the virus. On this Vigil of the Assumption, let us now pray the Rosary for him.”
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...y-deteriorated
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:06 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This, and that fact that the naysayers have to go all the ray back to 2015 to find their so-called "evidence" pretty much rips the rug out from under their case.
It was from YOUR evidence presented as a profile of Obama-era antivaxxers in a thread about the current COVID antivaxxers

Edited by xjx388:  <SNIP>Rule 0 / Rule 12
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Last edited by xjx388; 17th August 2021 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:31 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Pretty much probably the same battery of shots I got in the US Army.
Except there was no recommend about it.you had no choice, and the Sergeant in charge of your training platoon would make that point clear...

I got similar in the Air Force... typhoid*, smallpox, cholera, yellow fever, typhus* and tetanus.

*FYI, these are not the same disease
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:31 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Pretty much probably the same battery of shots I got in the US Army.
Except there was no recommend about it.you had no choice, and the Sergeant in charge of your training platoon would make that point clear...
Do they ever give a new recruit an option for anything?
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:38 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do they ever give a new recruit an option for anything?
Nope.
I don't want to get into a lecture about how basic works, but one of the main mental points they make in the first few weeks, is that the Army..or whatever Service you are in is the boss, and your opinions and desires don't amount to s---t.
You go where they send you, and do what they tell you.
Sounds pretty brutal, but I don't see how a military can operate any differently.
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:40 PM   #129
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BWT news just breaking:Abbott of Texas has tested positive for Covid.
I admit this news is giving me a lot of joy.
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:40 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It was from YOUR evidence presented as a profile of Obama-era antivaxxers in a thread about the current COVID antivaxxers

Try reading the WHOLE OF MY ******* POST, NOT JUST THE BIT THAT SUITS YOUR NARRATIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Last edited by smartcooky; 17th August 2021 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:42 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do they ever give a new recruit an option for anything?
Top bunk or lower bunk?
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:44 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BWT news just breaking:Abbott of Texas has tested positive for Covid.
I admit this news is giving me a lot of joy.
I confess to enjoying this bit of schadenfreude...

Shall we send him our thoughts and prayers?

Nah.

Quote:
He is currently isolated in the governor’s mansion and is receiving Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody treatment, the statement said. Abbott is in good health and not currently experiencing any symptoms.
Darn. I was hoping they'd treat him with grape seed extract and hydroxychloroquine.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 17th August 2021 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:50 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BWT news just breaking:Abbott of Texas has tested positive for Covid.
I admit this news is giving me a lot of joy.

LSHIFOMC...That is some Karma right there.

I don't wish him to die, but I hope get gets very ill and suffers, a lot, so that he can gain some understanding of the suffering his stupid and corrupt Trump arselicking policies have visited upon his constituents!
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Old 17th August 2021, 03:53 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
LSHIFOMC...That is some Karma right there.

I don't wish him to die, but I hope get gets very ill and suffers, a lot, so that he can gain some understanding of the suffering his stupid and corrupt Trump arselicking policies have visited upon his constituents!
He's fully vaccinated so he won't get that sick. But he was mingling with no mask on in a crowded, maskless room last night.
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Old 17th August 2021, 04:00 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Try reading the WHOLE OF MY ******* POST, NOT JUST THE BIT THAT SUITS YOUR NARRATIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had you the wit to take note of the timestamp, I replied while you were still working on your edit.

To your edit: no, the age stats need not still apply. You know damn right well that the average Fox watching conservative is very old. They could just as easily have drunk the Trump Kool-Aid and changed their vax views, and many surely did.

The misconception you have is this comic book oversimplification of American politics. Most of us just don't care. What you think is an entire state of citizens in political lockstep is really a nearly even split on the political scale, and a ton of IDGAFs.

Your evidence assumes near even splits are popular landslides. Don't you recall how close those races were? Yet the income line is consistent for your Obama Era stats, and PhantomWolfs current stats.

The funny part is that you and the others still deny the income correlation. I mean, it's right there in black and white, yet you insist it's not there. The denial runs too deep for reason, I suppose.
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Old 17th August 2021, 04:05 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Had you the wit to take note of the timestamp, I replied while you were still working on your edit.


<irrelevant BS and gutter sniping snipped>
Then you need to edit your post to reflect that. You have about another hour to that!
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Old 17th August 2021, 04:12 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
Evolution.
I blame the Intelligent Designer.

(Homer Simpson voice) Stupid Intelligent Designer
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Old 17th August 2021, 04:20 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I blame the Intelligent Designer.

(Homer Simpson voice) Stupid Intelligent Designer
A member in another group I belong to actually said that Covid had to have been a man made virus created by the Chinese because God would never create such a virus. I asked her if smallpox, measles, ebola, rabies, etc where also created by the Chinese. Unsurprisingly, this woman has made other statements that reveal she doesn't have two brain cells to rub together.
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Old 17th August 2021, 04:42 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Then you need to edit your post to reflect that. You have about another hour to that!
...says the poster who both snips out direct rebuttals to his argument, and can't admit he screwed up posting outdated and irrelevant antivaxxer profiles.

I also note you're not editing your other pooch-screwing comments. Takes some gall, I'll give you that.
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Old 17th August 2021, 05:26 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...says the poster who both snips out direct rebuttals to his argument, and can't admit he screwed up posting outdated and irrelevant antivaxxer profiles. .
Dear oh dear. Looks like I am going to have to walk you through this in baby steps so that you ate least have some chance of understanding the obvious... so read the following very, very carefully!

The 2015 article I posted is STILL 100% RELEVANT in regard to the age groups of anti-vaxxers because nothing has happened since 2015 that will change the fact they they were born when they were born and the fact they are the generation they are - a boomer is a boomer regardless of the current year, be it 2015 or 2021

The 2015 article I posted is NOT STILL RELEVANT in regard to the political grouping of anti-vaxxers because absolutely ****-loads has changed since then. In 2016 America was infected with a right wing that has become anti-science, anti medicine and anti-fact. They have politicised the pandemic and mask wearing and vaccinations. The have turned vaccination from a fringe moral issue into a fully blown, main-stream political culture war - the Democrats approve of Covid-19 vaccination so the Republicans MUST (because tribal dogma dictates it), repeat MUST be against it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I also note you're not editing your other pooch-screwing comments. Takes some gall, I'll give you that.
I stand 100% behind everything I have said. I snipped the irrelevant bollocks you posted because it was, err, well, irrelevant bollocks. It was nothing more than your entirely fact-free opinion in support of your entirely unsupportable BS narrative.

I would also point out that, had you bothered to check (and you clearly didn't), you would have realised that the article I linked to in post#68 was in reply to Fidelio's post#58. I posted it to address that post and only that post. The fact that it contained other information that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that post is entirely inconsequential... that post, and my reply had nothing to do with the political divide over vaccination.

I knew that article was from 2015, but I would bet money that you didn't until Stacy pointed it out to you (though I don't expect you to admit it).
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If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 17th August 2021 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 08:57 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
...I knew that article was from 2015, but I would bet money that you didn't until Stacy pointed it out to you (though I don't expect you to admit it).
Oh my god, this is amazing. Here is Stacyhs' post:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That article was from March, 2015: pre-Covid, pre-Trump. There has never been a vaccine that was politicized the way these vaccines have been. There has never been an epidemic in the US whose severity was downplayed and even denied by the POTUS, a political party, or a partisan media that spread misinformation the way this one has. In 2015, those stats were true; in 2020-2021 they no longer apply, perhaps with the exception of the "think their vote doesn't matter" stat.
Click on it to see the posting date. Today, 17 August. Jot that down, please. Now we see mine:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It was in the post above mine? In the link? Must I really repost it? Click challenged today, are we?

Eta: in fairness tho the study was from 2015.
Go ahead, Ducky. Check the date. 15 August.

The amazing part is that this is not the first, but the second time just today that you have been befuddled and outwitted by linear ******* time.

But let's get back to data analysis. You said, in response to PhantomWolf's additional data (which PhantomWolf has been bright enough not to argue about):

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That seems pretty damned conclusive to me.... the economic ranking points appear quite evenly distributed top to bottom of the vaccination % ranks

Looks like when you confront BS artists with facts, the BS artists evaporate...
I have pointed out that the data shows the income ranking in the single digits and teens clustered at the top, with the thirties, forties, and the couple 50s down at the bottom.

Do you stand by your brilliant analysis, or is it time for you to **** on the chessboard and flounce?
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Last edited by Thermal; 17th August 2021 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 09:30 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh my god, this is amazing. Here is Stacyhs' post:

Click on it to see the posting date. Today, 17 August. Jot that down, please. Now we see mine:

Go ahead, Ducky. Check the date. 15 August.

The amazing part is that this is not the first, but the second time just today that you have been befuddled and outwitted by linear ******* time.
The precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, in so far as they can be determined and demonstrated is such as to cause epistemological problems of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

You do realise that we can go back and check what you posted and when you posted it, right?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But let's get back to data analysis. You said, in response to PhantomWolf's additional data (which PhantomWolf has been bright enough not to argue about):

I have pointed out that the data shows the income ranking in the single digits and teens clustered at the top, with the thirties, forties, and the couple 50s down at the bottom.
OK, so let's see YOUR data then, and site your sources, or STFU!

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Do you stand by your brilliant analysis, or is it time for you to **** on the chessboard and flounce?
I absolutely, 100% stand by what I said. You have brought NOTHING to the table so far other than your own spurious, unsubstantiated and unsupported opinion.

When you can site actual data and sources (as PW and I have) then you'll be in a position argue. Put up or shut up!
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► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 17th August 2021 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 17th August 2021, 09:43 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, in so far as they can be determined and demonstrated is such as to cause epistemological problems of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

You do realise that we can go back and check what you posted and when you posted it, right?
Oh Jesus, don't tell me you're trying to dispute the dates based on your relative time zone?

Quote:
OK, so let's see YOUR data then, and site your sources, or STFU!
Already done, as you have already been told. I'm not repeating a dozen times for the slow kids.



Quote:
I absolutely, 100% stand by what I said. You have brought NOTHING to the table so far other than your own spurious, unsubstantiated and unsupported opinion.

When you can site actual data and sources (as PW and I have) then you'll be in a position argue. Put up or shut up!
Yet again, already done.
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Old 17th August 2021, 10:19 PM   #144
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OBSERVABLE FACT: The Blue states are at the top of the list of vaccination rates

OBSERVABLE FACT:
The Red states are at the bottom of the list of vaccination rates

OBSERVABLE FACT: Both Phantom Wolf and I have provided data and sources for that data

OBSERVABLE FACT: We have provided fact-based, data based opinion regarding that data


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Already done, as you have already been told. I'm not repeating a dozen times for the slow kids.
A lie

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yet again, already done.
Another lie

I have been back and looked through all of the 17 posts you have made so far since the beginning of this thread. While you have posted a number of figures and percentages, you have NOT substantiated any of them with a source. For all anyone here knows, you just plucked those figures of your underpants!

I'm not doing your homework for you. Until you actually provide sources for your figures, I am just going to regard them with skepticism - and consider them to be made up.
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If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 17th August 2021 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 18th August 2021, 02:03 AM   #145
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Top bunk or lower bunk?
Not even that.
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Old 18th August 2021, 02:06 AM   #146
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Who do you blame for the new surge of COVID?

The victims.*

*By which I mean those over 16 who are not vaccinated and not immune compromised or legitimately not able to get the shot.
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:14 AM   #147
Thermal
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OBSERVABLE FACT: The Blue states are at the top of the list of vaccination rates

OBSERVABLE FACT:
The Red states are at the bottom of the list of vaccination rates
True, yet proves no causality. We could literally say that "states that bordered large bodies of water tend to have higher vaccination rates, therefore proximity to water is a primary indicator". I'm not kidding. Look at the map.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020...ntial_election

Quote:
OBSERVABLE FACT: Both Phantom Wolf and I have provided data and sources for that data
You have. Some was even in the relevant time frame! PhantomWolfs additional income data proved my point. PW is a little sharper than some here and bailed when the error became clear.

Quote:
OBSERVABLE FACT: We have provided fact-based, data based opinion regarding that data
You have not. You're drawing a bad conclusion, just like the "proximity to water" conclusion above.

Quote:
A lie

Another lie

I have been back and looked through all of the 17 posts you have made so far since the beginning of this thread. While you have posted a number of figures and percentages, you have NOT substantiated any of them with a source. For all anyone here knows, you just plucked those figures of your underpants!
To treat you like a child yet again, I have said repeatedly that we are criticizing your treatment of your own presented data. I am not responsible for your failure to understand this simple concept.

Quote:
I'm not doing your homework for you. Until you actually provide sources for your figures, I am just going to regard them with skepticism - and consider them to be made up.
Yet again, we are criticizing your work. My claim is that your data does not support your causal link. If you recall, I started this saying I agree that conservatives are more likely to be antivaxxers. It is strictly the way you treat your own data that is at issue.

For example (again), I pointed out that income is just about as accurate a correlation. PhantomWolfs far right column confirmed this, yet you both deny it.

So, yet again: citing PhantomWolfs income column (it's the one on the far right. PM if you need assistance in determining which way is right). There is a clear correlation with the single digit and teen rankings at the top, and 30s/40sa at the bottom. Do you continue to deny this? I'll make them red and blue for you if that is more your speed.

Also: you slunk away from responding to your transparently dishonest "you know we can check the dates" insight. Seems like for a third time in one day, you were outwitted by a ******* clock. That's gotta be some kind of record.

Just for fun:

OBSERVABLE FACT: States bordering a large body of water are strongly correlated to high vaccination rates. Fact based opinion: proximity to water is an important indicator of pro-vaccination sentiment.

Discuss.
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:31 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just for fun:

OBSERVABLE FACT: States bordering a large body of water are strongly correlated to high vaccination rates. Fact based opinion: proximity to water is an important indicator of pro-vaccination sentiment.

Discuss.
Alaska, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas would like a word with your "observable fact".
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:41 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Alaska, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas would like a word with your "observable fact".
Obviously, none of the corellations were perfect, but a clear pattern shows. One that should be beyond chance.

And for Christ's sake dude, it's a facetious point. SC and PW would be much more on the mark to say "people who identify as conservative Republicans are more likely to be antivaxx", rather than going by the State as a whole. The population split, per Wiki link above, was about 53% blue to 47% red. That's close as hell to an even split. And voter turnout was only about 2/3 of eligible voters. So a solid third of each state's political leanings aren't even being factored, not even getting into ineligible voters (who are still factored in vaccinations). That's my point here. Electoral college voting is not a reliable barometer. Its more a sloppy correlation.
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Last edited by Thermal; 18th August 2021 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:41 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Alaska, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas would like a word with your "observable fact".
But how fast can they run?
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:46 AM   #151
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
But how fast can they run?
The Trolling thread is over in FMF --->
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Old 18th August 2021, 01:05 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
LSHIFOMC...That is some Karma right there.

I don't wish him to die, but I hope get gets very ill and suffers, a lot, so that he can gain some understanding of the suffering his stupid and corrupt Trump arselicking policies have visited upon his constituents!
One of our locals DJ's I think was making a coment when he followed this news item by playing John Lennon's "Instant Karma".
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Old 18th August 2021, 01:09 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Not even that.
You can pick whether or not you attend religious services on Sunday morning, and which service (Catholic Protestent or Jewish) you want to attemd,and that was about it.
Even at mealtimes, you had to present your tray to one of your DI's who checked to see that your meal was within the dietary requirments for your weight class. Sort of an "Eat Heathy, or We Will Kick Your Ass".
Actually if you were caught cheating you got to do some push ups and sit ups....many,many of them.
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Old 18th August 2021, 01:48 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
True, yet proves no causality. We could literally say that "states that bordered large bodies of water tend to have higher vaccination rates, therefore proximity to water is a primary indicator". I'm not kidding. Look at the map.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020...ntial_election
Not seeing it, sorry

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You have. Some was even in the relevant time frame! PhantomWolfs additional income data proved my point. PW is a little sharper than some here and bailed when the error became clear.
Or maybe he's not as patient with children as I am. Maybe he just can't be bothered dealing with your foot stamping tantrums.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You have not. You're drawing a bad conclusion, just like the "proximity to water" conclusion above.
I reject your conclusions. I stand my my assessment that the data I have provided is sound and valid, and you have shown nothing that makes me doubt it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
To treat you like a child yet again, I have said repeatedly that we are criticizing your treatment of your own presented data. I am not responsible for your failure to understand this simple concept.
I have not failed to understand anything, well at least, other than understanding that you have shelled out your opinion without backing it up with sourced facts and/or data.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yet again, we are criticizing your work. My claim is that your data does not support your causal link. If you recall, I started this saying I agree that conservatives are more likely to be antivaxxers. It is strictly the way you treat your own data that is at issue.
I reject your criticism. Its just your opinion, unsupported by facts.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For example (again), I pointed out that income is just about as accurate a correlation. PhantomWolfs far right column confirmed this, yet you both deny it.
I reject your conclusions as, once more, they are merely your opinions, unsupported by sourced facts. As long as you fail to provide sourced, supporting facts, I will treat your opinions with the contempt they deserve.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So, yet again: citing PhantomWolfs income column (it's the one on the far right. PM if you need assistance in determining which way is right). There is a clear correlation with the single digit and teen rankings at the top, and 30s/40sa at the bottom. Do you continue to deny this? I'll make them red and blue for you if that is more your speed.
Yes, I see that, but much more importantly, what are their mile times?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Also: you slunk away from responding to your transparently dishonest "you know we can check the dates" insight. Seems like for a third time in one day, you were outwitted by a ******* clock. That's gotta be some kind of record.
I ignored it because it was irrelevant to the discussion.

In any case, you were given the opportunity to correct your comments, and you failed to do so... that's on you, and it indicates to me that the edit would have made no difference - you would have just snipped the extra parts of the post out and not addressed them... as usual.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just for fun:

OBSERVABLE FACT: States bordering a large body of water are strongly correlated to high vaccination rates. Fact based opinion: proximity to water is an important indicator of pro-vaccination sentiment.
Alaska, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and and Texas don't fit your stupid and irrelevant "fun fact"
.
.
.
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Old 18th August 2021, 03:05 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not seeing it, sorry
Ok.

Quote:
Or maybe he's not as patient with children as I am. Maybe he just can't be bothered dealing with your foot stamping tantrums.
I'm calm as can be, bud.

Quote:
I reject your conclusions. I stand my my assessment that the data I have provided is sound and valid, and you have shown nothing that makes me doubt it.
Okey doke.

Quote:
I have not failed to understand anything, well at least, other than understanding that you have shelled out your opinion without backing it up with sourced facts and/or data.
Yet again, we are both analyzing your data.

Wait...you really don't get that, do you? You presented data, and drew a conclusion from it. I analyzed the same data, and drew a conclusion from it. You really, truly don't understand that, do you?

Quote:
I reject your criticism. Its just your opinion, unsupported by facts.
Great.

Quote:
I reject your conclusions as, once more, they are merely your opinions, unsupported by sourced facts. As long as you fail to provide sourced, supporting facts, I will treat your opinions with the contempt they deserve.
They remain, as always, the same facts you presented.

Quote:
Yes, I see that, but much more importantly, what are their mile times? [
Oh, you acknowledge now that you do see that, huh? So either you are lying now, or were lying earlier when you denied it. Or perhaps you had an epiphany overnight?

Quote:
I ignored it because it was irrelevant to the discussion.
Bull. You thought you were setting up a gotcha, but it was lame and transparent. After all, you brought it back up.

Quote:
In any case, you were given the opportunity to correct your comments, and you failed to do so... that's on you, and it indicates to me that the edit would have made no difference - you would have just snipped the extra parts of the post out and not addressed them... as usual.
...says the Crown Prince of snipping thorny posts. There was nothing to correct, btw. You gave your opinion on data, and so did I. Same source, same facts. The only difference is PhantomWolfs income ranking, which supported my point


Quote:
Alaska, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and and Texas don't fit your stupid and irrelevant "fun fact"
Yeah, I didn't think you would understand the facetious point. See ya on the next one.
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Last edited by Thermal; 18th August 2021 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 18th August 2021, 03:34 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yet again, we are both analyzing your data.

Wait...you really don't get that, do you? You presented data, and drew a conclusion from it. I analyzed the same data, and drew a conclusion from it. You really, truly don't understand that, do you?
I have an opinion, and provided data to back it up, you have opinion, and provided no data. If you disagree with a fact-based opinion, you need to show either that the facts are incorrect, or the the analysis is flawed. To do that you need to bring the facts on which you base your opinion. It is not sufficient to merely gainsay your opponent's opinion.

Wait...you really don't get that, do you?

Republicans are undeniably...

1. The party of Covid-19 vaccination naysaying
2. The party resposible for politicizing mask wearing
3. The party that is openly anti-science
4. The party that openly criticizes the virus scientists
5. The party that openly ignores expert medical advice

...and add to that the fact that the Republican-leaning media have all been pushing all of the above to Republican voters, but oh no, there couldn't possibly be any correlation between Republican dominated states, with Republican dominated State Legislatures, having low Covid-19 vaccination rates?
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If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 18th August 2021 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 18th August 2021, 03:56 PM   #157
Thermal
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have an opinion, and provided data to back it up,
AKA cherry picking. You know, some of us get the data first, then form our opinions. Not you though, out and proud and putting it in writing for all to see.

Quote:
...you have opinion, and provided no data.
Growing bored repeating this, but we were both considering the data you presented.

Quote:
If you disagree with a fact-based opinion, you need to show either that the facts are incorrect, or the the analysis is flawed. To do that you need to bring the facts on which you base your opinion. It is not sufficient to merely gainsay your opponent's opinion.
Damn, you almost had it. The facts presented are not in dispute. The interpretation is. Further facts don't correct your flawed understanding of the facts.

Quote:
Wait...you really don't get that, do you?

Republicans are undeniably...

1. The party of Covid-19 vaccination naysaying
2. The party resposible for politicizing mask wearing
3. The party that is openly anti-science
4. The party that openly criticizes the virus scientists
5. The party that openly ignores expert medical advice
Many GOP members do, agreed. And?

Quote:
...and add to that the fact that the Republican-leaning media have all been pushing all of the above to Republican voters, but oh no, there couldn't possibly be any correlation between Republican dominated states, with Republican dominated State Legislatures, having low Covid-19 vaccination rates?
No sniping or jabbing for a moment, just please consider this:

In the 2020 election, the US had a record turnout of 2/3 of the eligible voters. Many states were very tight, so about half of them voted for the winning candidate (simplified math). That means a states governance is determined by about a third of its population. The other two thirds (not even getting into ineligible voters) do not openly support the ruling party. That's two mother ******* thirds, the majority of the population.

What this means is that you see a red state and declare all residents the same (you did this recently on another thread saying one can assume all Texans are racist). The reality is it only reflects about a third of them who are politically active.

Vaccinations, on the other hand, apply to all people in the state, not just the 1/3 who voted for their party and won. Also, children get vaccinated too, who are too young to vote. Convicted felons, immigrants...the list of ineligible voters who get vaccinated goes on and on.

Bringing it home: you are interpreting data based on less than a third of the population. Vaccination rates apply to *all* the population.

Again, without the sniping: can you see why I am disagreeing with your inferences, even if you stand by them?
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Last edited by Thermal; 18th August 2021 at 04:02 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 18th August 2021, 08:02 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No sniping or jabbing for a moment, just please consider this:

In the 2020 election, the US had a record turnout of 2/3 of the eligible voters. Many states were very tight, so about half of them voted for the winning candidate (simplified math). That means a states governance is determined by about a third of its population. The other two thirds (not even getting into ineligible voters) do not openly support the ruling party. That's two mother ******* thirds, the majority of the population.

What this means is that you see a red state and declare all residents the same (you did this recently on another thread saying one can assume all Texans are racist). The reality is it only reflects about a third of them who are politically active.

Vaccinations, on the other hand, apply to all people in the state, not just the 1/3 who voted for their party and won. Also, children get vaccinated too, who are too young to vote. Convicted felons, immigrants...the list of ineligible voters who get vaccinated goes on and on.

Bringing it home: you are interpreting data based on less than a third of the population. Vaccination rates apply to *all* the population.

Again, without the sniping: can you see why I am disagreeing with your inferences, even if you stand by them?
Now let me explain to you why you are wrong.

Firstly, it is a completely false accusation that I am declaring "all residents the same", far from it. State vaccination rates have nothing to do declaring anybody "the same". Read on...

Secondly, if you look at the data, you will notice that the Blue states of Georgia, Nevada, Arizona, Michigan and Illinois are among the red states below 50% vaccination rate, with Pennsylvania and Wisconsin just above them in the low 50's. I wonder why that is? If you think back to 2020 election night and the days after, you might recall something significant about those seven states, and work this out for your self.

Thirdly, I fully understand that everyone in a Red state is not necessarily Republican voter (and everyone in a Blue state is not a Democrat voter). I also understand that not everyone voted, or was eligible to vote. Nonetheless, I will address all of your gripes with some opinion, which I will, of course, back up with facts and data.

Illustrating a point:
I think you accept the fact that, as a combination of listening to both their preferred media and their preferred politicians, Democrat voters are more likely to accept and get Covid-19 vaccinations, while Republican voters are more likely to reject and not get Covid-19 vaccinations, yes? So lets assume, for the sake of illustration and simplicity that, across the board 70% of Democrat voters and the non-voting members of their families get vaccinated but only 30% of Republican voters and their non-voting families get vaccinated. Remember, these figures are just illustrative

To calculate a very simple state vaccination rate from that information, we would use a formula like

V%=Dvax/Dpv+Rvax/Rpv

Where:
V% is the overall state vaccination rate
Dvax = % of Democrats voters and non-voting family members vaccinated
Rvax = % of Republican voters and non-voting family members vaccinated
Dpv = Democrat % of popular vote
Rpv = Republican % of popular vote

State A went Blue 80-20, so their vaccination rate would be 62%
State B went Blue 70-30, so their vaccination rate would be 58%
State C went Blue 60-40, so their vaccination rate would be 54%
State D went Blue 51-49, so their vaccination rate would be 50.4%
State E went Red 49-51, so their vaccination rate would be 49.6%
State F went Red 40-60 so their vaccination rate would be 46%
State G went Red 30-70, so their vaccination rate would be 42%
State H went Blue 20-80, so their vaccination rate would be 38%

Now, as I said, these numbers, while loosely based on reality, are only made up purely for illustrative purposes, but I think even you can see how this will work...the Republican voters and their non-voting families in any given state not vaccinating will drag the whole vaccination rate down, and the larger the proportion of Republican voters and their non-voting families in a state, the more it drags that whole state towards the bottom of the table.

Now lets look at some actual figures, and see how this works in practice:

Here are the bottom 15 states in the table I posted in Post #87

NOTE: State by State voter share data sourced from my distant cousin Charlie Jr's website here
https://cookpolitical.com/2020-natio...r-vote-tracker

V%StateDpvRpv
44.83 Texas4652
44.46 North Carolina4850
42.58 Missouri4156
41.36 South Carolina4355
41.15 Oklahoma3265
40.54 North Dakota3265
39.81 Tennessee3861
39.40 Georgia4949
39.25 West Virginia3069
38.02 Arkansas3562
37.90 Louisiana4059
37.88 Idaho3364
37.26 Wyoming2670
35.47 Mississippi4158
35.09 Alabama3762

... but just to be sure, lets look at the same table for the top 15 states, because, well, I wouldn't want to be accused of cherry picking my data to suit my narrative, or anything like that.

V%StateDpvRpv
66.78 Vermont6631
64.59 Massachusetts6632
64.42 Maine5741
64.13 Connecticut5939
62.44 Rhode Island5939
59.73 Maryland6532
59.34 New Jersey5741
58.68 New Hampshire5345
58.50 Washington5839
58.06 New York6138
58.05 New Mexico5444
56.62 Oregon5740
55.40 Virginia5444
55.22 Colorado5542
54.42 Minnesota5245

As you can see, the same applies at the both ends of the table. The higher the share of Democratic vote in a state, the greater the likelihood of higher numbers of people getting vaccinated in that state (because Democrats are more likely to vet vaccinated), therefore, the higher they are on the table. Conversely, the higher the share of Republican vote in a state, the lesser the likelihood of higher numbers of people getting vaccinated (because Republicans are less likely to get vaccinated), therefore, the lower they are on the table.

Furthermore, you can actually see the trend if you follow the numbers - V% down the left and the blue Vpv down right of the table. For sure, there are a couple slightly out of place, but denying the blindingly obvious correlation here is beyond any logic or reason!

Addressing your quibbles:
A. Vaccination applying to all people in the state
In statistics, a margin of error is calculated to show how accurately the result can be extrapolated to represent the result for whole population. Several factors are taken into account, but the most important and influential one is sample size. In polls of just a couple of percent of the population, for a sample size of a few thousand participants, the margins of error are as low as 2-3%.

In the US the, percentage of the population eligible to vote (18 or over) is 78% and of those eligible voters, the percentage actually registered to vote is about 70% (it varies from state to state, but not by much). Since the 2020 election voter turn out was about 63%, its easy enough to work out what percentage of the whole population voted... it is 0.78 x 0.70 x 0.63 x 100.... 34%.

Now, we can treat an election exactly like a poll, because that is what it is. In this poll 34% of the population have been polled. This will result in a tiny margin of error, perhaps in the order of 0.1% or even less. I think we can extrapolate the result of a poll in which 1/3 of the population were polled to be a safe and accurate representation of the other 2/3.

B. Children get vaccinated too, who are too young to vote.
Children under 18 will almost certainly do what ever their parents or tell them to do. There may be some that do not, but not enough to be statistically significant, therefore, they are accounted for by the statistical framework above.

C. Immigrants and other ineligible voters who get vaccinated[/b]
Undocumented immigrants are 3.4% of the US population, but being undocumented means they will not appear in any statistics vaccinated or not, so their numbers are statistically insignificant
Documented immigrants appear to getting vaccinated at rate of around 50%, so while sciatically significant they are more likely to pull Red states rates up and Blue state rates down if they even have any effect at all.

D. Convicted felons
Convicted felons are 0.54% of the population.. again statistically insignificant.

Conclusion - (bringing it home
There are now three clear indicators showing where any given state will be on the vaccination table.

1. Whether the state is Democrat or Republican
2. Whether the state Legislature is Democrat or Republican
3. The actual share of the state popular vote

The observed trends are

Republican States with a Republican State Legislature and a high proportion of the popular vote in their favour are more likely to trend towards the bottom of the vaccination table.

Democrat States with a Democrat State Legislature and a high proportion of the popular vote in their favour are more likely to trend towards the top of the vaccination table

States with a mixture, e.g. a Republican state with a Democrat Legislature (if vice versa) and an evenly spread popular vote are more likely to trend towards the middle of the vaccination table

There are a couple of outliers, but they do not detract from the overall trend.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 18th August 2021 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:26 PM   #159
Thermal
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Now let me explain to you why you are wrong.
Not a good start, but many thanks for a reasoned post that you clearly took seriously. So much more satisfying than ad homs and talking about balls.

Quote:
Firstly,.....<respectful snip for brevity>
Largely agreed, no major issues.

Quote:
For sure, there are a couple slightly out of place, but denying the blindingly obvious correlation here is beyond any logic or reason!
Again, my first words in this exchange were that I agree with your conclusion, that conservative Republicans (Trumpsters in particular) are more inclined to be antivaxxers, due to the party line of resistance to basically anything the Democrats advocate. We would expect to see some degree of correlation. The figures initially presented though, I think tried a little too hard to equate voters and state "colors" to a more complex matrix of the reasons for vaccination rates. As I think you agree with on some level, there is a similarly strong income correlation. Tyr 13 argued that the intersectionality may explain this, and I tend to agree.

Ultimately, I think that the actual people being vaccinated (or not) should be weighing in here, rather than how their state is governed. The actual reasons for disparity or correlation may often be counterintuitive.

Quote:
Addressing your quibbles:
A. Vaccination applying to all people in the state
In statistics, a margin of error is calculated to show how accurately the result can be extrapolated to represent the result for whole population. Several factors are taken into account, but the most important and influential one is sample size. In polls of just a couple of percent of the population, for a sample size of a few thousand participants, the margins of error are as low as 2-3%.

In the US the, percentage of the population eligible to vote (18 or over) is 78% and of those eligible voters, the percentage actually registered to vote is about 70% (it varies from state to state, but not by much). Since the 2020 election voter turn out was about 63%, its easy enough to work out what percentage of the whole population voted... it is 0.78 x 0.70 x 0.63 x 100.... 34%.

Now, we can treat an election exactly like a poll, because that is what it is. In this poll 34% of the population have been polled. This will result in a tiny margin of error, perhaps in the order of 0.1% or even less. I think we can extrapolate the result of a poll in which 1/3 of the population were polled to be a safe and accurate representation of the other 2/3.
Disagreed. You can exit poll and get a good read on how the voting population went, but in an election, those who didn't show up should not be expected to align with red or blue in their silence. Hell, their very absence from the polls shows that they are not backing either, or simply don't give a ****. There is no reason to extrapolate voting preferences to that huge group that says IDGAF. That they don't give a **** is exactly their position, no extrapolation from the voters needed.

Quote:
B. Children get vaccinated too, who are too young to vote.
Children under 18 will almost certainly do what ever their parents or tell them to do. There may be some that do not, but not enough to be statistically significant, therefore, they are accounted for by the statistical framework above.
True, but in terms of the representative percentages, they are counted as vaccinated or not, but are not represented in the voting rolls. Surely you have seen many a kid who is at strong political odds with his parents but can't vote yet?

Quote:
C. Immigrants and other ineligible voters who get vaccinated[/b]
Undocumented immigrants are 3.4% of the US population, but being undocumented means they will not appear in any statistics vaccinated or not, so their numbers are statistically insignificant
I don't think so. Vac rates in my New Jersey (on our State COVID site) count arms jabbed, without regard to citizenship papers. My online registration even asked whether or not I was a citizen.

Quote:
Documented immigrants appear to getting vaccinated at rate of around 50%, so while sciatically significant they are more likely to pull Red states rates up and Blue state rates down if they even have any effect at all.
Ok, but the list is longer. Student visas, work visas, permanent non-citizen residents...hell, our own American citizen Puerto Ricans can't vote in the general election.

Quote:
D. Convicted felons
Convicted felons are 0.54% of the population.. again statistically insignificant.
No way, baby. Convicted felons are abt 8% of the adult population, with Florida and Louisiana running 10-15%. When we are talking about the winning party being controlled by 30-40% of the overall population (accounting for the 'not really half' voting percentages), that's a huge block of non-voters who nevertheless factor into vac rates.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news...cially-blacks/



Quote:
Conclusion - (bringing it home
There are now three clear indicators showing where any given state will be on the vaccination table.

1. Whether the state is Democrat or Republican
2. Whether the state Legislature is Democrat or Republican
3. The actual share of the state popular vote

The observed trends are

Republican States with a Republican State Legislature and a high proportion of the popular vote in their favour are more likely to trend towards the bottom of the vaccination table.

Democrat States with a Democrat State Legislature and a high proportion of the popular vote in their favour are more likely to trend towards the top of the vaccination table

States with a mixture, e.g. a Republican state with a Democrat Legislature (if vice versa) and an evenly spread popular vote are more likely to trend towards the middle of the vaccination table

There are a couple of outliers, but they do not detract from the overall trend.
That's all true. It's also true that income showed a similarly strong correlation, which should not be capriciously dismissed. We could probably assemble other charts: degree of education, religion, or nipple diameter. I could assemble a chart showing states within a hundred miles of large bodies of water except the Gulf of Mexico (because it is a rapist) and show a powerhouse correlation too.

I respect your argument here, and thank you again. So you can snip out the above, and answer this if you choose: do you think income has any explanatory power here? Could the vaccination rates be attributed to anything else besides how the state voted as of the last election?

I ask because as a lifelong American, I think a large chunk of the voters don't follow party line all year. They vote every four years, maybe, and don't give politics anything but a snicker the rest of the time. We are not nearly the trained political poodles the media makes us out to be. Go, Team IDGAF!

If we want to know how many diehard party liners there really are, probably the roster of registered Ds and Rs would be the place to look. They're the ones taking things to heart, not the once-every-4-year voter or the IDGAF contingent, or the felons and other disenfranchised voters.
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Old 19th August 2021, 01:30 AM   #160
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. You can exit poll and get a good read on how the voting population went, but in an election, those who didn't show up should not be expected to align with red or blue in their silence. Hell, their very absence from the polls shows that they are not backing either, or simply don't give a ****. There is no reason to extrapolate voting preferences to that huge group that says IDGAF. That they don't give a **** is exactly their position, no extrapolation from the voters needed.
Doesn't matter. You can still extrapolate out 1/3 of people who voted in election to the rest of the state who didn't because whether people vote, are registered to vote but don't vote, or aren't registered to vote, they still almost always have political opinions, and they form those political opinions and act based on the media they consume. You only have to look at how many of the January 6 insurrectionist Trump supporters who who either didn't vote in the 2020 Election, or weren't even on the electoral rolls.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No way, baby. Convicted felons are abt 8% of the adult population, with Florida and Louisiana running 10-15%. When we are talking about the winning party being controlled by 30-40% of the overall population (accounting for the 'not really half' voting percentages), that's a huge block of non-voters who nevertheless factor into vac rates.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news...cially-blacks/
Nope, you are quoting figures from a three year old article which is itself quoting eleven year old statistics

Here are more up to date figures

The United States has about 437 prisoners per 100,000 people as of the end of 2019, a 2.6% drop from 2018

Your other two figures regarding Louisiana and Florida are wrong as well

Here are the 10 states with the highest prison rates They run from 0.68% down to 0.44%

Louisiana (683 per 100k)
Mississippi (638 per 100k)
Oklahoma (635 per 100k)
Arkansas (584 per 100k)
Arizona (545 per 100k)
Texas (520 per 100k)
Kentucky (515 per 100k)
Georgia (500 per 100k)
Idaho (461 per 100k)
Florida (438 per 100k)

Source for all the above dated 2021. You can mouse over any state on the stylized map to see the per 100,000 rate for that state

https://worldpopulationreview.com/st...ation-by-state

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So you can snip out the above, and answer this if you choose: do you think income has any explanatory power here? Could the vaccination rates be attributed to anything else besides how the state voted as of the last election?

I ask because as a lifelong American, I think a large chunk of the voters don't follow party line all year. They vote every four years, maybe, and don't give politics anything but a snicker the rest of the time. We are not nearly the trained political poodles the media makes us out to be. Go, Team IDGAF!

If we want to know how many diehard party liners there really are, probably the roster of registered Ds and Rs would be the place to look. They're the ones taking things to heart, not the once-every-4-year voter or the IDGAF contingent, or the felons and other disenfranchised voters.
It could be, if it was 100% dependent on wealth, but its not. The Covid-19 vaccine plan is 100% Federally funded. People do not require any kind of healthcare plan or medical insurance of any kind. Both jabs are free (or the one jab if you're getting J&J). You can be as poor as a church mouse, and still vaccinated at no cost.

Yes, I acknowledge that economics may play a part, but I do not believe it is a anywhere near major driver. If it were, then how do we explain states like Alaska (8th in income) is 30th with only 46% vaccinated, California (6th) in 17th with 54%, and Hawaii (3rd) in 16th 54%, while Maine (36th in income) is in 3rd with 64%, New Mexico (49th) in 11th with 58%, and Vermont (22nd) at the top of the vax stats with 67% ?

I stand by my position that the major driver is politics.

The GOP, their carnival barkers and their media mouthpieces have made the pandemic a partisan political issue; they have made anti-science, anti-mask, anti-vaccine and playing down the pandemic their core platform. This is not an opinion, its clear and obvious fact, right that there to see for anyone who has their eyes open.
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► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
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