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Old 19th August 2021, 08:24 PM   #81
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, again not really true.

The Afghani Government suffered from a lot of issues that caused their downfall.

Corruption was a huge part, many of the areas that fell quickly did so simply because the Taliban offered huge sums of money for the authorities to join them rather than to fight them, and due to the corruption, and in the case of many police and soldiers, the lack of payments from Kabul, they did exactly that.

On top of that, Kabul has never been able to project its power very well. The only group that has really even had moderate success in that has been the Taliban, but even then it has been exercised via local Mullahs and leaders rather than directly from Kabul. The way that Afghanistan power structures [barely] work is entirely different from how a western nation does, and trying to build a nation there is really an impossible dream. The best anyone will ever be able to do is to install a loyal provincial leadership and provide them with something that will keep them loyal. Western Ideals fall apart at this point, the Taliban will always have the advantage via their Religion.

So no, it's not an attainable goal. This is a lesson that outside nations have not learned in thousands of years of attempts to contol Afghanistan.
Yes I understand all that, it's a Tribal society much like the Native Americans were that's why all the Tribes never United Against the Conquest of the America's by the Spanish.
If there ever was a strong leader who could Unite the tribes of Afghanistan
then that person could form a central government, but do to the really of the structure of the Tribal divisions that's as Likely as it snowing on the surface of the sun tomorrow Morning.
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Old 19th August 2021, 09:19 PM   #82
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Something else to remember is that Germany was split up into four parts after WWII, one part administrated by each of the UK, the US, France, and the USSR. While the parts under the control of the UK, US, and France were reunited in 1949 the entire country was not reformed until 1990, and even during that time the Allied forces had military bases inside of West Germany.
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Old 19th August 2021, 09:45 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Japan's 1947 constitution and Italy's 1947 constitution appear to be holding up. The jury is still out on Iraq's 2005 constitution.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Huge differences on so many levels. These were countries that wanted to be rebuilt.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The question was whether rebuilding ever works. No idea when how we can tell in advance.
In addition to the fact that Japan & Germany & Italy had already been countries before and the people had liked them that way, a few more factors to consider:

►Lots of money was spent rebuilding their war-damaged roads & buildings & industries. That not only meant people could physically start using them again, but also served as a huge signal to the people that the outsiders who were doing this for them could be trusted and meant well for them. No such effort was made in Afghanistan. We showed them the destructive, harmful side of our wealth but not the constructive, helpful side.

►Our opponents in WWII had to have their spirits utterly crushed first. They had been seeing themselves as greater than others, destined to rule over others. Then they were suddenly forced to face the fact that they just couldn't hack it in that mode. That failure/loss made them think "OK, we were wrong about that" and look for what other kind of attitude they could replace that old mistaken attitude with instead. Afghanistan has never had delusions of ruling the world, and didn't, in this latest invasion, ever have their country collapsed around them so thoroughly that they just wouldn't be able to continue to survive without help. (Not only would that level of destruction be seen as overkill by invaders like the USA & UK now, but also, they have less of that European-style infrastructure to lose, so losing it all would make less difference to them anyway.) So there's been nothing to kick them into such a "we need to rethink everything now" mode.

►WWII and its aftermath were the turning point at which those countries finally shifted from the 1800s-era mindset of constant back-&-forth wars to prove how much tougher they were than everybody else, into a more modern era. But, at least in Europe, it wasn't the only cause all by itself; part of why the war & aftermath were able to tip them over from one era to the next was because they were already at the edge just about ready for the transition anyway, with non-nationalistic and pacifistic ideologies gradually gaining more traction in general. Afghanistan does not appear to be on the edge of a transition between eras like that. The only thing I can think of that might have had the potential to serve as a similar transition of eras in Afghanistan pertains to this next quote.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Afghanistan has always been a sinkhole for anyone and everyone who thought they could rule.
Ugh, this again...

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No! Just no.

Afghanistan's real history is exactly the opposite of that. It's spent thousands of years constantly under the rule of one foreign empire after another (Persian, Macedonian-Greek, Persian again, another group with a Chinese-sounding name I'm forgetting who came from the northeast, Persian again, Mongol, Persian again, Arabic, Turkic, Indic). Each one ended not when the Afghans threw them out or even convinced them to leave, but when the next one took its place. We don't have reliable historical records from the Bronze Age back, but, at least starting in the early Iron Age, Afghanistan was never out from under foreign imperial rule for a single day leading up to the mid-1700s. And even then, it only finally ended when the general era of central-Asian imperialism did, which Afghans had no part in causing; the last few big empires around them just faded at about the same time without a dominant new one to replace them this time. Afghanistan was finally not somebody else's province for the first time ever, but still hadn't ever had a single case of either blocking an invader out, forcing a conqueror entirely out even after being conquered, or even taking fragments of the country from a conqueror in less than 200 years.

And even then, it was still a matter of being conquered for most Afghans, just by another Afghan this time. Just when the empires' reach was pulling back in the mid-1700s, there was a military leader in Afghanistan who gave them their final nudges on the way out and took over Afghanistan himself, creating an independent country there for the first time, but, to anybody else who wasn't of his clan/tribe, he was just another ruler over their own clans/tribes. And so that's what the government of Afghanistan as a "modern nation" has always been since then, even before anybody from the USA or USSR ever set foot there.

So now, back to what I said just before the last quote box: What big change might Afghanistan possibly be ready for? What "new era" could they possibly have been offered a path to? Given that their history consists entirely of having always been under somebody else's thumb (no matter how much people like to recite the myth that claims the exact opposite), the only way to make a big change from that would be to give them the one thing they've never had in millennia: actual, real-world independence... not on the scale of a "nation of Afghanistan", but on the scale of their clans/tribes. The new concept of "Afghanistan" could have been not a nation, but instead no more than a pact in which a couple dozen smaller finally-truly-independent entities agree to leave each other alone.

Since this seems to be (compared with what we actually did) more in line with what most people there want, it would have at least meant more support for the USA's presence to help set it up & protect it at first. But it would have also required more outside-the-box thinking from the American government (and all others that might be involved, too, like the UK or UN); outside of places like Afghanistan, nobody in the modern era seems to ever imagine a chunk of land that size not somehow needing to be a single nation. And it would also require a lot of people to drop the myth of Afghania Invictus and admit that it's precisely the opposite of reality, since obviously you can't change history by offering people something if they've already always had it.

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Old 19th August 2021, 10:53 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
►Lots of money was spent rebuilding their war-damaged roads & buildings & industries. That not only meant people could physically start using them again, but also served as a huge signal to the people that the outsiders who were doing this for them could be trusted and meant well for them. No such effort was made in Afghanistan. We showed them the destructive, harmful side of our wealth but not the constructive, helpful side.
This simply isn't true, in fact, aside from our SAS, our entire contingent was there to do reconstruction, from rebuilding roads and dams to building power stations and schools. There was a lot of money put into rebuilding and helping to create infrastructures.
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Old 21st August 2021, 05:03 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This simply isn't true, in fact, aside from our SAS, our entire contingent was there to do reconstruction, from rebuilding roads and dams to building power stations and schools. There was a lot of money put into rebuilding and helping to create infrastructures.
Yes but all wasted now, the Key factor is why didn't the Afghanistan population blame the Taliban for starting the war?
That is the Key failure in Our approach to fighting the Taliban, over half the population still believed Osama Bin Laden was Innocent of September 11/2001.
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Old 21st August 2021, 05:37 AM   #86
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Old 21st August 2021, 07:15 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, again not really true.

The Afghani Government suffered from a lot of issues that caused their downfall.

Corruption was a huge part, many of the areas that fell quickly did so simply because the Taliban offered huge sums of money for the authorities to join them rather than to fight them, and due to the corruption, and in the case of many police and soldiers, the lack of payments from Kabul, they did exactly that.

On top of that, Kabul has never been able to project its power very well. The only group that has really even had moderate success in that has been the Taliban, but even then it has been exercised via local Mullahs and leaders rather than directly from Kabul. The way that Afghanistan power structures [barely] work is entirely different from how a western nation does, and trying to build a nation there is really an impossible dream. The best anyone will ever be able to do is to install a loyal provincial leadership and provide them with something that will keep them loyal. Western Ideals fall apart at this point, the Taliban will always have the advantage via their Religion.

So no, it's not an attainable goal. This is a lesson that outside nations have not learned in thousands of years of attempts to contol Afghanistan.
A lot of the conceptual problems people have with understanding the situation in Afghanistan seems to be caused by the definite article in "the Taliban". There isn't a Taliban, there has never been a Taliban in the way we use such a term in the developed world to talk about governments, civil authorities, and political parties. They are more akin to the USA version of political parties i.e. anyone can claim they are a republican/democrat and even run as such, but it doesn't mean they are part of a cohesive, political grouping with an agreed upon ideology and policies. The nearest they have to that is a claim to want to govern by "sharia law", guess what - again there isn't such a thing as a "sharia law" that is agreed upon by all "the" Taliban or other Muslims. There are some commonalities - the same way say countries like the UK and Italy can be said to have commonalities i.e. they both have "Christian values" incorporated into their legislation either overtly or by embedded vestiges of Christian cultures but their actual laws, justice systems and so on are in fact quite different.
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Old 21st August 2021, 07:22 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Yes but all wasted now, the Key factor is why didn't the Afghanistan population blame the Taliban for starting the war?
That is the Key failure in Our approach to fighting the Taliban, over half the population still believed Osama Bin Laden was Innocent of September 11/2001.
90% of the population of Afghanistan live under the international poverty level i.e. less than $2 a day. And that is after the billions poured into the country over the last 2 decades. Do you really think that most of them give two figs about who is in "control" - it makes no difference to them, they are simply trying to survive - the poor never have much influence on what those in control do. Revolutions need money.

It's like when the war was launched, and we had people boasting "we will bomb them back to the stone age!" - my response was "we'd have to get them to the stone age first of all!"
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Old 21st August 2021, 08:40 AM   #89
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SecState Pompeo played a big role:
Quote:
Two years ago, Pompeo began pushing for a deal with the Taliban. Hawks urged him to stipulate in the agreement that the Taliban had to turn over al-Qaida operatives. They also asked him to reject any demand for a “premature release of Taliban prisoners.” He did neither. Under the deal, signed on Feb. 29, 2020, the U.S. government pledged “to withdraw from Afghanistan all military forces of the United States, its allies, and Coalition partners … within fourteen (14) months.” The deal also specified that the Afghan government would release 5,000 prisoners, five times as many as the Taliban had to release. There was no requirement to hand over al-Qaida operatives.

Pompeo promised that the Taliban would rein in their carnage. “We have come to an understanding with the Taliban on a significant reduction in violence,” he declared. A day after the signing ceremony, he asserted that “the Taliban have now made the break” from al-Qaida. On Face the Nation, Margaret Brennan asked him whether the Taliban were “terrorists.” Pompeo declined to use that word, assuring her that “the [Taliban] gentleman whom I met with agreed that they would break that relationship and that they would work alongside of us to destroy” al-Qaida. On Fox News, Pompeo spoke of a personal connection with the Taliban: “I looked them in the eye. They revalidated to that commitment.” The interviewer, Bret Baier, pointed out that immediately after signing the deal, the Taliban had announced a resumption of attacks on the Afghan government. Pompeo brushed aside the announcement. “If the violence levels come down,” he told Baier, “then and only then” would the United States draw down its troops.

American forces immediately began to vacate bases and pull out. But the Taliban, contrary to its commitments, escalated its attacks. Pompeo responded by making excuses. “We have seen the senior Taliban leadership working diligently to reduce violence from previous levels,” he asserted on March 5, 2020. “We still have confidence that the Taliban leadership is working to deliver on its commitments.” He argued that critics were making too much of the latest attacks, since violence in Afghanistan was “common.”
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ban-biden.html
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Old 21st August 2021, 01:19 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
90% of the population of Afghanistan live under the international poverty level i.e. less than $2 a day. And that is after the billions poured into the country over the last 2 decades. Do you really think that most of them give two figs about who is in "control" - it makes no difference to them, they are simply trying to survive - the poor never have much influence on what those in control do. Revolutions need money.



It's like when the war was launched, and we had people boasting "we will bomb them back to the stone age!" - my response was "we'd have to get them to the stone age first of all!"
Plus the total lack of nuance. Afghan =/= Taliban =/= Al'Qaeda (being made up of significant remnants of Arab Mujahideen, not even the same culture group).
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Old 21st August 2021, 02:04 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
SecState Pompeo played a big role:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ban-biden.html
From your link:

Quote:
Pompeo spoke of a personal connection with the Taliban: “I looked them in the eye. They revalidated to that commitment.”
Reminds me of GWB's statement about Putin:

“I looked the man in the eye. I found him very straightforward and trustworthy — I was able to get a sense of his soul.”

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Old 21st August 2021, 09:32 PM   #92
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Pompeo is just upset that the withdrawal might not result in WW3 as he hoped.
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:20 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Pompeo is just upset that the withdrawal might not result in WW3 as he hoped.
Which could lead to the Rapture.
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Old 25th August 2021, 07:05 PM   #94
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Just think, 20 years ago the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Now coming upon the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks the Taliban control Afghanistan again; that is twenty years and trillions of dollars down the money pit. What a swindle!!!

The Taliban won and the Globalist American Empire (GAE) finally cut tail and ran. Sharia law triumphs over Globohomo. Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes. Welcome to Clown World USA.
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Old 25th August 2021, 07:54 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Just think, 20 years ago the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Now coming upon the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks the Taliban control Afghanistan again; that is twenty years and trillions of dollars down the money pit. What a swindle!!!

The Taliban won and the Globalist American Empire (GAE) finally cut tail and ran. Sharia law triumphs over Globohomo. Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes. Welcome to Clown World USA.
If the US had gone into Afghanistan to rid the world of the Taliban and create a stable peaceful nation, you might have a point, but since they didn't and Al Qaeda is no longer a thing in Afghanistan, then it seems you missed your point.
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Old 25th August 2021, 09:38 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Just think, 20 years ago the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Now coming upon the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks the Taliban control Afghanistan again; that is twenty years and trillions of dollars down the money pit. What a swindle!!!

The Taliban won and the Globalist American Empire (GAE) finally cut tail and ran. Sharia law triumphs over Globohomo. Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes. Welcome to Clown World USA.
And this is why I can only see your posts when someone quotes you.
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Old 26th August 2021, 08:26 AM   #97
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Things would have been different if Donald Rumsfeld were still alive and were Sec. Defense. During a Republican-led evacuation, nobody ever fell off an airplane while clinging to the landing gear.

Homesick Angel: Last Flight From Da Nang
Quote:
As he struggled to point the nose up, Healy discovered something deeply disconcerting—when he pulled on the controls, they pulled back. He figured the hydraulic system had been damaged and he would probably have to make a water landing in Da Nang Bay. Healy was unaware that the wheel wells were filled with people, clinging to the cables. It was the pull of those people he was feeling.
Quote:
As his eyes adjusted to the darkness inside the aircraft, Truc realized he was not in an entryway to the main cabin. The space, full of mostly women and children, seemed to be a cube of no more than 6 feet on each side. He and the others were in the 727 wheel well.
(This during Rumsfeld's first stint as Sec. Defense, under Ford)

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Old 26th August 2021, 08:50 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Onion
CIA Begrudgingly Impressed By How Well They Trained Future Taliban Members In 1980s
https://www.theonion.com/cia-begrudg...source=twitter
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Old 26th August 2021, 09:13 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
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Old 26th August 2021, 09:19 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If the US had gone into Afghanistan to rid the world of the Taliban and create a stable peaceful nation, you might have a point, but since they didn't and Al Qaeda is no longer a thing in Afghanistan, then it seems you missed your point.
And yet Isis-K caused an explosion or two at the airport just today. SO....yeah.
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Old 26th August 2021, 09:20 AM   #101
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From the perspective of the GOP, the war in Afghanistan isn't a failure. Sure, we didn't achieve any meaningful peace or stability in this region, and likely created more national security threats than we eliminated. Sure a bunch of Americans and even more Afghans died or otherwise had their lives totally derailed.

But it sure did build a lot of mansions in Northern Virginia for a bunch of defense contractors. The war was an excellent transfer of public wealth into private hands, a success any Bush era GOP member can be proud of.
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Old 26th August 2021, 09:51 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
From the perspective of the GOP, the war in Afghanistan isn't a failure. Sure, we didn't achieve any meaningful peace or stability in this region, and likely created more national security threats than we eliminated. Sure a bunch of Americans and even more Afghans died or otherwise had their lives totally derailed.

But it sure did build a lot of mansions in Northern Virginia for a bunch of defense contractors. The war was an excellent transfer of public wealth into private hands, a success any Bush era GOP member can be proud of.
You have to look at it this way now, IsIs has infiltrated the Taliban, they have plenty of weapons and their most likely target now is China and the Taliban.
What do we care about it after we leave?
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Old 26th August 2021, 09:54 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Just think, 20 years ago the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Now coming upon the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks the Taliban control Afghanistan again; that is twenty years and trillions of dollars down the money pit. What a swindle!!!

The Taliban won and the Globalist American Empire (GAE) finally cut tail and ran. Sharia law triumphs over Globohomo. Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes. Welcome to Clown World USA.
Wow, that is nice bunch of World Salad.
Dpn't ell me let me guess: 9/11 was an inside job, right?
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Old 26th August 2021, 10:01 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You have to look at it this way now, IsIs has infiltrated the Taliban, they have plenty of weapons and their most likely target now is China and the Taliban.
What do we care about it after we leave?
Ypou think ISIS is not going to target Americans you are crazy.
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Old 26th August 2021, 03:10 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ypou think ISIS is not going to target Americans you are crazy.
Not if Americans Leave nothing for us to gain in fighting them In Afghanistan though air strikes with drones would be nice.
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Old 26th August 2021, 03:15 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post

The Taliban won and the Globalist American Empire (GAE) finally cut tail and ran. Sharia law triumphs over Globohomo. Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes. Welcome to Clown World USA.
Did they forget your medication again?!?!
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Old 26th August 2021, 03:16 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
And yet Isis-K caused an explosion or two at the airport just today. SO....yeah.
Is Isis-K Al Qaeda? Seriously, it seems that some people think all Muslim extremists are the same group.
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Old 27th August 2021, 05:10 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Not if Americans Leave nothing for us to gain in fighting them In Afghanistan though air strikes with drones would be nice.
DOn't know much about ISIS, do you?
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Old 27th August 2021, 06:09 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes. Welcome to Clown World USA.
Another ignorant internet General. Criticizes the military from his futon in his mom’s basement. He’s never been in combat or sat behind the controls of a plane in a stateside airport, much less a war zone, stinking coward.

Quote:
For the past 12 days, President Biden has saved the lives of over 100,000 Americans and Afghans after the Taliban won the war and Kabul fell. Yet, he has been pilloried by pundits and armchair generals, and his approval rating has fallen. On this day of chaos, misery and suicide bombings, I want you to hear why President Biden has made a bold, courageous and smart move and why he deserves our thanks.
https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/the-m...ul-episode-208
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Old 27th August 2021, 06:32 PM   #110
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
DOn't know much about ISIS, do you?
I KNOW They are not going to swim the atlantic
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Old 28th August 2021, 12:39 AM   #111
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I KNOW They are not going to swim the atlantic
didn't stop the 9/11 attackers.
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Old 28th August 2021, 03:45 AM   #112
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
didn't stop the 9/11 attackers.
The 9/11 Highjackers were not on no fly lists.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:30 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, that is nice bunch of World Salad.
True statements are a word salad to the debunkies.

True statement: Just think, 20 years ago the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Now coming upon the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks the Taliban control Afghanistan again.

True statement: that is twenty years and trillions of dollars down the money pit.

"Since 2001, the US has spent $2.26 trillion in Afghanistan, the Costs of War Project at Brown University calculates. The biggest chunk – nearly $1 trillion – was consumed by the Overseas Contingency Operations budget for the Department of Defense."

True statement: The Taliban won and the Globalist American Empire (GAE) finally cut tail and ran.

True statement: Sharia law triumphs over Globohomo.

U.S. Embassy Kabul Jun 2
The month of June is recognized as (LGBTI) Pride Month. The United States respects the dignity & equality of LGBTI people & celebrates their contributions to the society. We remain committed to supporting civil rights of minorities, including LGBTI persons. #Pride2021 #PrideMonth

True Statement: Our woke joke military couldn't even manage the evacuation without people falling off of planes.

Christopher F. Rufo: Postmodern: American military brass spending all summer discussing "white rage," organizing Robin DiAngelo book clubs, and tweeting about "diversity and inclusion."

Modern: Losing control of the territory, weapons, logistics, and exit routes in Afghanistan.

An absolute tragedy.

And remember, we tried to export this ideology:

–Afghan Pres. Ghani was a Johns Hopkins professor and did a TED Talk.

–The US spent $1 billion on gender programs.

–The embassy in Kabul was tweeting about Pride Month while the Taliban was conquering provinces.

Foolish.

Globalist American Empire (GAE) = BLM flag and the Sodomy Pride Flag
American people = The Stars and Stripes.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Dpn't ell me let me guess: 9/11 was an inside job, right?
Of course. But the term false-flag terror attack is more precise.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:54 PM   #114
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Repubs decry what they created.
Quote:
For weeks, Republicans have been all over cable TV, lambasting Biden for withdrawing troops. They’ve professed dismay that thousands of jailed Taliban fighters were released from prison, that al-Qaida operatives are still in Afghanistan, and that the American president accepted a Taliban deadline to get out. All of these complaints are phony. Nearly everything the Republicans are decrying happened last year. But Republicans defended or ignored it, because the president who engineered those concessions was Donald Trump.

On Feb. 29, 2020, the Trump administration signed a deal with the Taliban to pull all American troops out of Afghanistan by May 1, 2021. The deal also required the Afghan government to release 5,000 imprisoned Taliban fighters. Hawks called the agreement weak and dangerous, but Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader, advised them not to speak out against it. In March 2020, at hearings of the House Armed Services Committee, some lawmakers worried about the deal, but most, including Reps. Jim Banks and Matt Gaetz, said nothing about it. Another Republican member of the committee, Rep. Mo Brooks, expressed his impatience to pull out, noting that American forces had long ago “destroyed al-Qaida’s operational capability” in Afghanistan.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...xit-trump.html
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Old 29th August 2021, 01:36 PM   #115
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An assessment of the role of U.S. contractors in the Afghan war.
Quote:
The Afghans were doomed as soon as the United States decided to leave. They knew what the United States never seemed to understand.

Not that the Taliban were invincible. But that their military, the same one the United States had spent so many years and so many billions training, had a fatal flaw: It couldn’t operate without intensive American involvement—and, specifically, the presence of American contractors at every level. As soon as those contractors exited the country, the war was over.
....
Rather than build an Afghanistan that would prosper on its own, becoming ever more self-sufficient, the entire American war enterprise seems to have been an exercise in manufactured dependency. So long as the money was flowing, this was actually profitable and, in theory, sustainable for the long-term.

After all, American war profiteers and weapons manufacturers made out quite well—mostly at the expense of the American taxpayer. Over a decade ago, the Commission on Wartime Contracting in Iraq and Afghanistan found that America transferred billions of taxpayer dollars in no-bid contracts to companies that entirely failed to deliver on their promises. To be precise, $30 billion.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...out&li=BBnb7Kz

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Old 29th August 2021, 08:54 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
The Taliban won because they lied they had a more effective Propaganda campaign than we did, part of the Reason we didn't do as well is they gave a more coherent message, while or message was garbled by Conspiracy theories!
When you attack the people trying to debunk the Propaganda from your enemy you give aud and comfort to the Enemy.
The Taliban are Afghanistan's Donald John Trump, they can't be Trusted.
And I'm guessing the Taliban had a better handle on the people in Afghanistan that we ever did. The US still doesn't know how to incorporate other world views in these situations.

When the Taliban were forced out there was a huge opportunity to replace them. They ruled by terrorism and I'm sure that wasn't too popular.

But nope, the US military has never in my lifetime made an effort to understand the countries we've occupied. Big opportunity blown.
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:00 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
From the perspective of the GOP, the war in Afghanistan isn't a failure. Sure, we didn't achieve any meaningful peace or stability in this region, and likely created more national security threats than we eliminated. Sure a bunch of Americans and even more Afghans died or otherwise had their lives totally derailed.

But it sure did build a lot of mansions in Northern Virginia for a bunch of defense contractors. The war was an excellent transfer of public wealth into private hands, a success any Bush era GOP member can be proud of.
And from GW's days on, private contractors ripped off those rebuilding dollars by the ton in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Disgusting.
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:08 PM   #118
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Dump spent time on the phone yesterday with Hugh Hewitt cheering Dump on. Dump was bragging about what a great job tough-guy Dump had done and that he'd had everything under control.

I couldn't listen to the whole thing, my dinner hasn't settled yet.

CNN Mocks Trump Over Wild Account Of Maybe Talking To Taliban Leader Who 'Screamed'
Quote:
As for the former president, his long-winded story, mangled syntax and one-sided conversation on Hewitt’s program was vintage Trump.

For one thing, he initially seemed fuzzy about whom he actually talked to.

“I spoke to ... sort of the known head, but nobody was sure, but now I’m sure, and I was sure then when I was speaking to him. And I knew as soon as I spoke to him. And even the introduction, I say ‘Hello,’ and he screamed something very tough,” Trump recalled. He apparently had no idea what it was Baradar screamed.

Cillizza said it sounded like Trump was only completely convinced of Baradar’s identity and his role in the Taliban when he “screamed something very tough.”

Then Trump got tough:

“And I then started with him. I said, listen, before we start the longtime conversation and conversations that we’re going to have, I have to say one thing, and I’ll never have to say it again to you. And here’s what I say: If you do anything bad to the United States of America, if you do anything bad to any of our civilians, to any American citizen, or if you do anything out of the normal ... I will hit you harder than anybody has ever been hit in world history.”

That would be pretty darn hard, smirked Cillizza.
Link to the conversation in the link.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th August 2021 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:28 PM   #119
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“I spoke to ... sort of the known head, but nobody was sure, but now I’m sure, and I was sure then when I was speaking to him. And I knew as soon as I spoke to him.“

Good stuff
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:55 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Dump spent time on the phone yesterday with Hugh Hewitt cheering Dump on. Dump was bragging about what a great job tough-guy Dump had done and that he'd had everything under control.

I couldn't listen to the whole thing, my dinner hasn't settled yet.

CNN Mocks Trump Over Wild Account Of Maybe Talking To Taliban Leader Who 'Screamed'Link to the conversation in the link.
Oh. My. God.
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