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Old 30th August 2021, 06:54 AM   #121
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
didn't stop the 9/11 attackers.
They were saudi's the muslim ban wouldn't have stopped them after all.
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Old 30th August 2021, 01:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Does anyone here think any such conversation ever occurred? Trump probably does, but he thinks he saw Muslims celebrating 9/11 while he was down in the rubble helping out.
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Old 30th August 2021, 01:30 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Does anyone here think any such conversation ever occurred? Trump probably does, but he thinks he saw Muslims celebrating 9/11 while he was down in the rubble helping out.
No. But a lot of things happen in Trump's mind that never actually occurred.
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Old 30th August 2021, 01:57 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Afghanistan has always been a sinkhole for anyone and everyone who thought they could rule.
Afghanistan has only existed since the late 18th Century, when it was created by the Russian and British Empires as a buffer. It has no history as a country prior to that. It is not in any sense a rational unit. It is, by tradition, a region of warlords and city-states in the productive plains trying to keep the tribes of the Hindu Kush penned in their mountains. In those days "Afghan" was a catch-all term for the hill-tribes, who nobody rules directly for long because it's just not worth the cost and effort.



The only solution is to break it up, leaving a core around Kabul and giving the rest to neighbouring countries - the Pashtuns to Pakistan, the Herat region (which is traditionally Persian) to Iran, the Panjshir to Tajikistan. Something radical like that.
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Old 30th August 2021, 02:05 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No. But a lot of things happen in Trump's mind that never actually occurred.
It's a feature. What strikes me is how indefinite his fantasies are. "He ..." (Trump doesn't remember the name or register it when it's fed to him) "... said something really tough ...", oh ffs, what?!? It speaks volumes about the fog which swims about in his mind.
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Old 30th August 2021, 02:08 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It's a feature. What strikes me is how indefinite his fantasies are. "He ..." (Trump doesn't remember the name or register it when it's fed to him) "... said something really tough ...", oh ffs, what?!? It speaks volumes about the fog which swims about in his mind.
Lies are usually vague. Truth will have details because they don't have to be invented; they just are. Lies have to be invented from whole cloth and take a lot of work.
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Old 30th August 2021, 10:30 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Lies are usually vague. Truth will have details because they don't have to be invented; they just are. Lies have to be invented from whole cloth and take a lot of work.
That's why the best lies are 99% truth, you only have to remember the details of the 1%.
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Old 30th August 2021, 11:00 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Lies are usually vague. Truth will have details because they don't have to be invented; they just are. Lies have to be invented from whole cloth and take a lot of work.
And Dump's obvious lies often start out as these semi-nebulous tall tales which later become more refined as he retells them.
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Old 30th August 2021, 11:46 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And Dump's obvious lies often start out as these semi-nebulous tall tales which later become more refined as he retells them.
The more he repeats them, the more he actually believes them himself and begins to have actual 'memories' of it happening. That's why we often actually do have memories of things that never happened or partially happened because our brain creates the memories for us.

For example, in my family there was the infamous "Stacy ate all the pecans off Dad's pecan pie". We all agree I did that as a kid. But my mom, my sister and I all had different, but distinct memories of where it happened and when. I can clearly remember doing it in our house in Tennessee when I was eight. Mom said it was when we lived in California and my sister said it happened when we lived in Seattle. All of us were 100% certain.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:39 AM   #130
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An article exploring the absolutely unhinged response that the media and natsec ghouls are having in response to ending this disastrous war:


The dangerous rise of a new stab-in-the-back myth
The foreign policy elite are focused on defending their reputations and privileges, not in confronting failure in Afghanistan.

Quote:
This betrayal myth is now part of a disturbing new narrative building in Washington as foreign policy elites struggle with the ignominious ending of the 20-year Global War on Terrorism that most of them supported. The narrative, apparent in D.C.-based panels and Zoom sessions, interviews and articles, has three interlocking components.

First, the invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq were just and noble endeavors, though flawed in execution. Robert Kagan, one of the chief architects of the neoconservative mission to invade Iraq, claims in a sweeping new article defending the wars that “increasing the U.S. military presence abroad was a more effective means of combating terrorism than decreasing it.” Kagan claims that our problem wasn’t waging war, it was not waging enough war. “Afghanistan was a classic case, repeated many times throughout American history, of a United States with one foot out the door from the moment of intervention.”
These people will do anything to avoid admitting that the war was a failure and those that advocated for it were dead wrong.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/20...the-back-myth/

Quote:
The media contributes to this sad game, focusing more attention on the past 20 days of withdrawal than on the past twenty years of war. As Jim Lobe noted, the three major networks combined devoted a mere five minutes to Afghanistan on their nightly news shows last year. Now, they are obsessed with the tiniest details of the withdrawal while ignoring the blockbuster revelations of Craig Whitlock’s “The Afghanistan Papers,” published in The Washington Post in 2019.
Truly wild how the media covers this. Ending the war that they couldn't even bother to cover is now a massive scandal.
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Old 31st August 2021, 09:19 AM   #131
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Trump SecDef now claims they were never going to leave Afghanistan.
Quote:
President Donald Trumpís top national security officials never intended to pull all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan, according to new statements by Chris Miller, Trumpís last acting defense secretary.

Miller said the presidentís public promise to finish withdrawing U.S. forces by May 1, as negotiated with the Taliban, was actually a ďplayĒ that masked the Trump administrationís true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.
https://www.defenseone.com/policy/20...f-says/184660/
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Old 31st August 2021, 09:38 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump SecDef now claims they were never going to leave Afghanistan.

https://www.defenseone.com/policy/20...f-says/184660/
Same excuse the Bushies used to explain the negotiated departure from Iraq.

Negotiate a s**t deal timed for the next President to implement, then blame that President for actually doing it.
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Old 31st August 2021, 10:01 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump SecDef now claims they were never going to leave Afghanistan.

https://www.defenseone.com/policy/20...f-says/184660/
Of course. He has changed his story to match the public response.

Had no one complained or everyone praised Biden, Dump would have adjusted his story to saying it was all about the Dump deal and Biden merely carried it out.


Originally Posted by ST
These people will do anything to avoid admitting that the war was a failure and those that advocated for it were dead wrong.
This is absolutely the case.

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Old 31st August 2021, 10:36 AM   #134
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I think a lot of people are confusing/conflating "botching the withdrawal" with "losing the war".

Honestly I don't think the Afghanistan occupation was really a war to be won or lost. What were the victory conditions supposed to be? What effort did each administration, Bush-Obama-Trump make to achieve those victory conditions?

Personally, my view is that the most important battle was won as soon as the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship was busted up. I think Bush would have been entirely reasonable to declare "mission accomplished" at that point and begin the withdrawal. And the second most important battle was won the day Bin Laden was assassinated. I think Obama would have been entirely reasonable to declare "mission accomplished" at that point and begin the withdrawal.

I think both parties, sharing the reins of power over a 20 year period, share equally in the blame for staying in Afghanistan as long as we did with no clear military goal in mind and no clear plan for making progress towards that goal.

I think Trump was totally reasonable for actually starting the withdrawal process. I even think he was totally reasonable for negotiating some sort peaceful exit agreement with the Taliban. Obviously in true Trumpian fashion he botched it, but at least he was doing something neither Bush nor Obama had the wit or the courage to do when they had the chance.

Anyway, Trump is to blame for setting up the conditions for a botched withdrawal. Biden is to blame for accepting those conditions and letting the botched withdrawal play out, instead of repudiating Trump's mistakes and moving swiftly and decisively to correct them.

And more than the two parties, I blame the administrative apparatus of the government. I blame the State Department, the intelligence agencies, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff for not being better informed, and for not urging a better withdrawal plan.

So which party is to blame for delaying the withdrawal so long? Which party is to blame for the mistakes in planning the withdrawal? Which party is to blame for the mistakes in executing the withdrawal?
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Old 31st August 2021, 10:57 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think a lot of people are confusing/conflating "botching the withdrawal" with "losing the war".

Honestly I don't think the Afghanistan occupation was really a war to be won or lost. What were the victory conditions supposed to be? What effort did each administration, Bush-Obama-Trump make to achieve those victory conditions?

Personally, my view is that the most important battle was won as soon as the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship was busted up. I think Bush would have been entirely reasonable to declare "mission accomplished" at that point and begin the withdrawal. And the second most important battle was won the day Bin Laden was assassinated. I think Obama would have been entirely reasonable to declare "mission accomplished" at that point and begin the withdrawal.

I think both parties, sharing the reins of power over a 20 year period, share equally in the blame for staying in Afghanistan as long as we did with no clear military goal in mind and no clear plan for making progress towards that goal.

I think Trump was totally reasonable for actually starting the withdrawal process. I even think he was totally reasonable for negotiating some sort peaceful exit agreement with the Taliban. Obviously in true Trumpian fashion he botched it, but at least he was doing something neither Bush nor Obama had the wit or the courage to do when they had the chance.

Anyway, Trump is to blame for setting up the conditions for a botched withdrawal. Biden is to blame for accepting those conditions and letting the botched withdrawal play out, instead of repudiating Trump's mistakes and moving swiftly and decisively to correct them.

And more than the two parties, I blame the administrative apparatus of the government. I blame the State Department, the intelligence agencies, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff for not being better informed, and for not urging a better withdrawal plan.

So which party is to blame for delaying the withdrawal so long? Which party is to blame for the mistakes in planning the withdrawal? Which party is to blame for the mistakes in executing the withdrawal?
The forever war is one that had nearly unanimous, bipartisan consensus, which is probably why the elites in this country threw an absolute tantrum when Trump promised to end this thing, and Biden actually delivered.

Realistically, the Afghanistan war seems to have little initial top level strategy beyond being a punitive campaign directed at Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks. At some point that limited mission expanded to a mission of permanent occupation, though none of the people running these wars (Bush and Obama alike) had the guts to be honest about the changed nature of the war. The Afghanistan Papers themselves showed that nobody knew what the supposed victory condition was that would trigger an end to hostilities. The goal was simply to continue the occupation and to offload as much of that responsibility onto local forces as much as possible.

I think you're underestimating the difficult position Trump put Biden in. The Trump deal released 5,000 Taliban fighters and put the rest of the country on notice that our puppet government's days were numbered. It was huge boon to the legitimacy of the insurgents and set a massive expectation.

I don't think there was any way for Biden to extend this deadline without provoking a massive escalation of hostilities. The cease-fire was extracted on the explicit promise that we would leave. The status quo of little to no fighting was not on offer, the choice was either honor the deal or prepare for a massive escalation of the conflict, likely requiring more American soldiers to be committed. In that way, Trump's deal forced the issue and made withdrawal a much more appealing option than previously.

I doubt we will know anytime soon, if ever, what these intelligence agencies actually thought (vs what they said publicly) about the viability of the Afghanistan government and whether they were surprised or not by the rapid collapse. If it had managed to hold itself together for even a few months, that would have made our extraction much easier, but likely would have resulted in very intense combat between the Taliban and Afghanistan government. Given the inevitability of Taliban success in the absence of the US military support, I can see why many cities preferred a more peaceful surrender.
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:10 PM   #136
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Ann Coulter
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Trump REPEATEDLY demanded that we bring our soldiers home, but only President Biden had the balls to do it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AnnCoulte...01983786795017
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:17 PM   #137
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Heh. I completely forgot that Coulter was a never-Trumper.
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:24 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Afghanistan has only existed since the late 18th Century, when it was created by the Russian and British Empires as a buffer. It has no history as a country prior to that. It is not in any sense a rational unit. It is, by tradition, a region of warlords and city-states in the productive plains trying to keep the tribes of the Hindu Kush penned in their mountains. In those days "Afghan" was a catch-all term for the hill-tribes, who nobody rules directly for long because it's just not worth the cost and effort.



The only solution is to break it up, leaving a core around Kabul and giving the rest to neighbouring countries - the Pashtuns to Pakistan, the Herat region (which is traditionally Persian) to Iran, the Panjshir to Tajikistan. Something radical like that.
This is the way I remember my college history classes of that part of the world. Same applies to Iraq if I recall correctly. A constructed country to serve others' purposes.
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Old 1st September 2021, 06:30 AM   #139
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Interesting interview where Gopal, an award winning journalist, claims that Bush's bloodthirsty and heavy handed conduct during the war managed to snatch failure from the jaws of success:

Quote:
Gopal: Oh, absolutely, because the U.S. won the war in 2001. The Taliban were defeated entirely. They put down their weapons; they went back to civilian life. They became teachers and farmers and bus drivers. And in many cases, they even tried to join the new government. The U.S., however, rejected that state of affairs.

From the very beginning, the U.S. had the idea that there's only unconditional surrender; there was no surrender with amnesty. That went from George W. Bush’s defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, on downwards. And so there was a lot of pressure from above on the Afghan elites — who were running the country at the time and interested in offering amnesty — not to do so.

And then, the U.S. also incentivized Afghans to turn against each other. I mentioned this is a country that was in the midst of the civil war. So the U.S. went to one side and started paying that side and saying, "Give us terrorists and give us Taliban members." And so, that side would use that to settle their old scores; they had nothing to do with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Tons of innocent people were rounded up, arrested and killed by the U.S. and its proxies.

If you go back and look at that period between 2001 and 2004, and if you interview military personnel, special forces who were based in Afghanistan at the time, or if you talk to Afghans, one of the striking things is that there was almost no anti-coalition or anti-government activity in Helmand and Kandahar and these kinds of places. They were remarkably peaceful, from that perspective. However, despite that, the U.S. was arresting people right and left, torturing them, sending them to Bagram Air Base or Kandahar Airfield or Guantanamo. Horrific tales of torture. And the U.S. was allying with local warlords and commanders who were just killing people right and left, on the slightest provocation.

So really, you had a one-sided war in those years, between 2001 and 2004, where the U.S. was fighting an enemy that didn't exist, and innocent people were the ones who were suffering. That really is what created the Taliban's resurgence. The Taliban wasn't a popular force in 2001, but in these communities, people saw the Taliban as a lesser of two evils to the violence perpetuated by the U.S. and by the U.S. proxies.
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/biden-...ently-n1278163

Taliban was on the ropes, but the senseless brutality of the US invasion and occupation made them seem the lesser of two evils, radicalizing populations that were previously indifferent to the US and hostile to the insurgents.
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Old 1st September 2021, 12:10 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
This is the way I remember my college history classes of that part of the world. Same applies to Iraq if I recall correctly. A constructed country to serve others' purposes.
The Ottoman Empire was divided up into "nations" by the British and French Empires according to their own perceived interests at the time (a century ago). This had nothing to do with creating coherent units, and, if anything, deliberately avoided them - they were built divided the better to be ruled.

Until we get over treating these legacy borders as sancrosanct there'll be no sensible improvement.
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Old 2nd September 2021, 10:36 PM   #141
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Bringing US troops back from Afghanistan was one of Trump's 2016 campaign promises... one that he couldn't get done despite having FOUR YEARS to do so.
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Old 2nd September 2021, 11:20 PM   #142
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Not "couldn't"; "didn't".

The President gives the order, or doesn't give the order.
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Old 2nd September 2021, 11:49 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Not "couldn't"; "didn't".

The President gives the order, or doesn't give the order.
True. And he not only "didn't", he increased the number of troops every year of his administration except 2020. There were about 8600 troops when he took office in 2016, about 13,000 in 2017 and about 15,000 in 2019. He only started pulling them out in 2020 in order to use it as a political tool for his (failed) re-election in Nov.
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Old 2nd September 2021, 11:55 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Not "couldn't"; "didn't".

The President gives the order, or doesn't give the order.
Yup... good call!
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Old 3rd September 2021, 12:43 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yup... good call!
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Old 3rd September 2021, 12:53 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Not "couldn't"; "didn't".

The President gives the order, or doesn't give the order.
Biden seems to often say he was "instructed" to call on certain reporters for questions or that he was "told" not to take questions from the press.

That seems to suggest he's not really in control or that he's even the real POTUS.

It also shows that he lied about the transparency that he promised before he was POTUS. Not to mention all the lies about Afghanistan like not leaving Americans behind.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 01:21 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Biden seems to often say he was "instructed" to call on certain reporters for questions or that he was "told" not to take questions from the press.

That seems to suggest he's not really in control or that he's even the real POTUS.

It also shows that he lied about the transparency that he promised before he was POTUS. Not to mention all the lies about Afghanistan like not leaving Americans behind.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 01:32 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Biden seems to often say he was "instructed" to call on certain reporters for questions or that he was "told" not to take questions from the press.

That seems to suggest he's not really in control or that he's even the real POTUS.

It also shows that he lied about the transparency that he promised before he was POTUS. Not to mention all the lies about Afghanistan like not leaving Americans behind.
Conspiracy Theories are over there ------>
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Old 3rd September 2021, 01:35 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Indeed... its a pity he didn't follow through on that bold rhetoric!

"A core pillar of our new strategy is a shift from a time-based approach to one based on conditions"

"Conditions on the ground, not arbitrary timetables will guide our strategy from now on"

Yeah right!. Then he agrees to an impossible timetable (out by May 31, 2021), and gives in to the Taliban's demand for 5,000 Taliban prisoners to be released, then he releases them all before the Taliban have held up their end of the bargain.

He calls himself the Master Negotiator, the Dealmaker in Chief

The reality is that he has a four year political history of caving in to foreign leaders whenever he gets backed into a corner..... China, Russia, Turkey, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Syria. Trump couldn't even get Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky to fold while holding a hand full of aces, and in the end, Zelensky won. Trump gave him the weapons he wanted... but got nothing in return.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 01:38 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Biden seems to often say he was "instructed" to call on certain reporters for questions or that he was "told" not to take questions from the press.

That seems to suggest he's not really in control or that he's even the real POTUS.

It also shows that he lied about the transparency that he promised before he was POTUS. Not to mention all the lies about Afghanistan like not leaving Americans behind.
Of course, you will be providing evidence in support of these assertions, yes?

(I won't be holding my breath, everyone here knows that Trump supporters and conspiracy theorists have something in common... they don't do evidence!
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Old 3rd September 2021, 02:23 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, you will be providing evidence in support of these assertions, yes?
Doubtless the evidence is available to those who have access to non-US media outlets which have uncensored coverage of President Biden and his failings - you know the ones which show the full press conferences where the effects of his rampaging dementia are on full display.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 03:20 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Doubtless the evidence is available to those who have access to non-US media outlets which have uncensored coverage of President Biden and his failings - you know the ones which show the full press conferences where the effects of his rampaging dementia are on full display.
I saw one video in which he actually answered a question directly and clearly...the bastard. He needs to be stopped.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 07:21 AM   #153
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I've seen the video clips of Biden saying his advisers/assistants had either "told" or "instructed" him about what questions to take. So that part is true.

The part where that post about it goes haywire is that we're apparently supposed to equate those words with "ordered", and we're apparently not supposed to notice that he brought up what they'd advised him not to do right before going ahead and doing it; the full quotes are literally along the lines of "they don't want me to do this, but I am anyway". It's a bit like Darwin acknowledging that, at first glance, the idea of an eye evolving must seem absurd, right before pages of examples showing how non-absurd it is. And lo and behold, the right-wingers do the same thing with that quote as they did with Biden's.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 02:11 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Biden seems to often say he was "instructed" to call on certain reporters for questions or that he was "told" not to take questions from the press.

That seems to suggest he's not really in control or that he's even the real POTUS.

...
Read a book. Every president gets this kind of advice. Whether he follows it is up to him. Trump tended not to, and look how so many of his press appearances ended up.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 04:21 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The part where that post about it goes haywire is that we're apparently supposed to equate those words with "ordered", and we're apparently not supposed to notice that he brought up what they'd advised him not to do right before going ahead and doing it; the full quotes are literally along the lines of "they don't want me to do this, but I am anyway".
When Trump says "They don't want me to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway ..." the right calls it "Speaking Truth to Power".
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Old 4th September 2021, 02:55 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Biden seems to often say he was "instructed" to call on certain reporters for questions or that he was "told" not to take questions from the press.

That seems to suggest he's not really in control or that he's even the real POTUS.

It also shows that he lied about the transparency that he promised before he was POTUS. Not to mention all the lies about Afghanistan like not leaving Americans behind.
Your tin foil hat is on too tight.
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Old 12th September 2021, 05:10 PM   #157
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So, here is my assessment of who is at fault for failing in Afghanistan. If it makes anyone feel any better, I've incorporated my own and my community's fault (that being those who do DDRRR) into this assessment. We made great strides in creating an Afghan Army, and Air Force, a National Police Force. What we failed to do was create an Afghanistan. Afghanistan was an agreement between the British and the Russians to have a buffer between their empires. In the minds of the people who lived there, it was never a nation.

While we prosecuted a war against the Taliban, we failed to create a nation in its place. We were very successful in getting Taliban fighters into the DDRRR process but there was never a nation on the other side of that for fighters to reintegrate into. We created a bloated bureaucracy that was essentially to city council of Kabul. The fault was in creating the trappings of nationhood without first creating a nation.
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Old 12th September 2021, 06:53 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So, here is my assessment of who is at fault for failing in Afghanistan. If it makes anyone feel any better, I've incorporated my own and my community's fault (that being those who do DDRRR) into this assessment. We made great strides in creating an Afghan Army, and Air Force, a National Police Force. What we failed to do was create an Afghanistan. Afghanistan was an agreement between the British and the Russians to have a buffer between their empires. In the minds of the people who lived there, it was never a nation.

While we prosecuted a war against the Taliban, we failed to create a nation in its place. We were very successful in getting Taliban fighters into the DDRRR process but there was never a nation on the other side of that for fighters to reintegrate into. We created a bloated bureaucracy that was essentially to city council of Kabul. The fault was in creating the trappings of nationhood without first creating a nation.
You can't create a nation from disparate parts like a Frankenstein monster. It has to come from a shared philosophy, shared culture, shared history. That is not Afghanistan.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:15 PM   #159
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That's just it. The DoD can help build a military. The DoJ can help build a criminal justice system. The Dept. of Ag can help build an agricultural system and Commerce and help establish trade. There's no agency of anyone's government that can turn all those things into something greater than the sum of its parts. What agency go you go to when you need to create a nation?
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